Ion talks Season 3 dates and why you're not getting class overhauls in RoA

[Tehterokkar]

I think the whole essence system is complete garbage.

1) They don't tie up with classes or specs(other than 2 of them that are specifically made, but even then 1 of them is a copy+paste for all specs) in any way. They are random stuff and I can mostly compare them to the WoD Garrison abilities in each zone. New random button that does something, but has no ties to your class design.

2) They just seem overbloated with text in tooltips. I try to read what they do and they have 4-5 lines of text of describing some bland effect that again going back to point #1, have nothing to do with our specs.

3) Balancing these will be a nightmare, I can already dread the hotfixes coming "X Essence now does 10% less damage for Arcane Mages, Y Essence now does 5% more healing for Mistweaver Monks". And most likely what is going to happen is that the CD specific one that ties to your spec somehow is going to be the best for a lot of specs simply because it has the best synergy with your abilities and stats(most of them won't scale with Haste nor Mastery of your spec, so if you aim for those 2 stats, you are getting fuck all value from them vs. specs that go for Crit/Vers). Not to mention the possibility of them just saying "fuck it" and not touching them at all, creating a bland "you use these as an Assasination Rogue and nothing else" situation.

4) The Spec specific ones. Particularly the one that ties into a spec's core cooldown ability. This is going to be such a mess from gameplay design and the spec's feel. Very early into the PTR people were reporting uptimes of extremely strong abilities like Incarnation or Metamorphosis to be +80%. It switches up the meaning of cooldowns, instead of feeling good when you use them, it now feels absolute ass when you don't have it up since the time you have it up would be greater than not having it up.

5) Not focusing on problems of the already existing system before introducing a new system that creates even more issues. Many specs are in shambles still, talents are an absolute shit show with no balance changes in the horizon for the rest of the expansion.
Legion talent system of apples vs oranges worked out a lot better. It created a literal meaningful choice. Do I want to go full AoE build, full single-target, or do I want some AoE because it works very well for the fight. Current talent in BfA there is no choice, you take 1 talent that is best in all situations outside of very few niche cases.
But speaking from the PoV of a Hunter, I was changing talents every farm/progress raid, both BM and MM had a ton of talent choices between the two that I could pick and choose to fit the fight with AoE or ST priorities. Now in BfA, I have not used a tome of clear mind for MM a single fucking time. I play the same fucking talents for every single piece of content I do. And same was for BM in Uldir. Which system was better class design?

[Musta]

All I read was excuses.

[Segus1992]

The difference being how much of that gear is absolutely necessary. Vanilla didnt immediately invaldiate previous tiers. I think we had...8 or so Onyxia cloaks when we killed Nefarian, we just cheesed with his throne, and alot of our raid was still in T0, generally 2-4 purples per person..maybe when you are halfway through BWL if you were late in the game or rerolled on a new server for the fresh race like i did in Jan06. Whereas if you are in lets say Heroic Dungeon blues you are in no way going anywhere near the 2nd tier of bfa.

I think we all know most of MC gear is absolute trash anyway so alot of blues are still better.

Sure, but this is essentially saying that Classic being woefully undertuned and poorly itemized is a positive thing. "RNG isn't better, it's just not necessary to progress"?

[sopeonaroap]

I'd argue that certain zones literally running out of quests for players to do to progress qualifies as meaningless grind and attunements are probably the most annoying form of content gating ever introduced, which Vanilla has in spades.

if you had to grind to level, then guess what....it had meaning. you're trying to be that guy and smart and you're just that guy. just stop while you have a head

[Taeldorian]

Isn't that why some people are disappointed they will be starting Classic from the very last iteration of it? Some people had hoped to get access to pre-changes classes?
Maybe I misremember but I could swear I saw someone making that point.

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This isn't Legion, but these days people lament the loss of Legiondairies since they gave incentive to run content on top of AP.

Azerite traits are fixed on the items, no RNG.
We still know that X piece drops from Y boss, it's just that we can also get lucky and have that piece grow more powerful, and each boss drops more items increasing the chances of getting it.

There's plenty RNG in Classic, it still applies to the important reward structures. On Retail we don't just have gear, but we have potential power growth on gear. We pursue transmog, pets, mounts. Then there are reward structures that are fixed without RNG too such as currency based/reputation based.

Why is classic the gearing system we’re comparing to BfA? They were both pretty bad. Gear had a bit more meaning in classic because once you did get that upgrade you’d keep it for a long time whereas now upgrades can be replaced within days or weeks due to TF and how “lucky” you are (which is the issue). Not only that but TF causes blizzard to increase ilvl by way more than usual in order to keep up with everyone getting 10-20 ilvl upgrades or for the lucky few, 35 ilvl upgrades. 385 mythic uldir to 415 mythic BoD, world content went from 350/355 to 370/385 and now 400. Ilvl jumps used to be 10-15 ilvls, now they’re 30-35.

What about MoP or wrath or Cata? Where you had multiple drops per boss and had the choice of running with 25 or 10 players (or LFR) and yet you also had currency to purchase and upgrade gear? It’s very clear that titanforging doesn’t need to be in the game. We could have a similar gearing system to MoP where we spend currency to upgrade gear especially now with AP, while your out farming AP you can get some currency too and work towards an upgrade. We had gearing systems in the past that were both superior to BFA and superior to classic imo.

[sam86]

People love those two things in Classic so I guess they see that as a sign to keep it in retail.

what u talking about
in classic u can count weeks at most to get that chest u want, %drop, save dkp, check other gear users in guild and u can estimate when u'll get the best chest for months for ur class
in BFA, u can't, the best item in-game is the highest rng titanforge one, and that chance is in the 0.0001%, u can run that raid every single week until wow ends and still won't drop to u, and u can't fool urself and think that the normal version is 'best' because u'll see someone 5th alt who was running for the lols getting it while u can't because game reward system now is unrelated to anything except just gambling
in TBC/wrath i could count a max time to get the item i want, since Legion i can't anymore because i have no idea when a titanforge proc will happen, well u can count worst case scenario but unlike vanilla (which was in weeks), in BFA worst case for best gear is in decades

[Lothaeryn]

Never asking the important questions though. Like if we're gettin' that third recolor of the season 1 set!

Seriously I wanted that Skin set so damn much, i was dissapointed it was relegated to being only an NPC armor set sans the tier 1 version.

[sam86]

There's plenty RNG in Classic

no there isn't, an item drop is average 25%, means u most likely see it once a month, the problem was mainly how many need it too, and u can determine that with DKP to guarantee if u want that chest u'll get it
in BFA most guilds don't even use dkp since it means sh8t when reward has no relation to effort but pure rng, and blizz already made loot personal anyway

People like those things when classes are fun to play. Blizzard decided to gut glass design in BFA to the point most people hate playing them. Class design is the central issue with BFA, everything else is whatever.

i just rolled a warlock to check game, got to lvl 10, logged out
even in vanilla, which was 14 years ago, i had more spells to use at lvl 10 than now

[Lothaeryn]

I think the only time I remember a big mid gameversion class change (other than pre-patches) was during Vanilla when talents were completely changed for a couple of classes.

I believe in Cataclysm Feral was split in a mid expansion patch, cannot recall which one though.

[Tehterokkar]

no there isn't, an item drop is average 25%, means u most likely see it once a month, the problem was mainly how many need it too, and u can determine that with DKP to guarantee if u want that chest u'll get it
in BFA most guilds don't even use dkp since it means sh8t when reward has no relation to effort but pure rng, and blizz already made loot personal anyway

Because DKP/EGPG/similar system is shit. It forces bad behaviour from players to save up their points for something that everyone wants and nobody wants to spend their points on a small upgrade that helps the raid(eg. nobody wanting bracer/belt upgrade because next boss drops BiS weapon, and using points on bracer/belt does not guarantee that they will get weapon also). I've used the system and our guild in retail has been much much better off with Loot Council.

Loot council is the best way to handle loot, period. Upgrades go to those that gain the most from them and those that are reliable and/or good players.

Just because you have only been in shit guilds with bad leadership does not mean the system is fucked, DKP is also fucked but most don't see it because they are too dumb to realize it or have not been part of the DKP council that gives out the items.

[niil945]

i just rolled a warlock to check game, got to lvl 10, logged out
even in vanilla, which was 14 years ago, i had more spells to use at lvl 10 than now

Hahahaha! No.

[TheRevenantHero]

Fair, I get that getting nothing isn't the same kind of frustration as getting something bad, especially if that shitty item was the result of a loot system that decides you now have a lower chance of getting further drops. It's not really about RNG being worse then though, more about it being a tease.

No, of course I don't think it is, because anyone who does is just pointlessly exaggerating in order to whine in a way that isn't possible to discuss. BfA is inspired by Legion, obviously, because that's the natural progression of literally anything - to improve/change what was there before. To say it's "watered down" is just whiny and subjective and therefore completely pointless.

I see this mentioned a LOT, but I'm 99% sure that Shaman gear only started dropping for Alliance in the TBC pre-patch. So many people keep saying it always happened lately, but that would've been ridiculous.

Well you're wrong because shaman gear was part of the loot table for both factions and same goes for paladin gear. Nothing is more frustrating than having to get rid of pieces that the ENTIRE RAID can't use.

[Awsyme]

Hazzikostas: There are also similarities I would say to Argus in Legion. It's a traditional endgame sort of zone, so it's cut from some of that same cloth.

So... sounds like they decided to stick a fork in this early and its done?

[FelPlague]

They do class changes in X.Y.5 patches now to get people to play despite not having new content. Genius really.

"Not having new content"
lol what you talking about 8.2 has tons of new content

[Black Goat]

It's referring to Season 3 starting earlier in the patch than Season 2 did. Just a couple of weeks in.

Duly noted. Stand corrected.

[FelPlague]

except those two things don't exist in classic you twit.
that's why people like it, all the rewards in classic are determinate.

no more praying to RNGesus whether or not the axe you get is gonna roll titan or whore-forged and actually be worth your time.

lol pretending you killed a boss and just got your item, and there was no such thing as "i killed this boss 20 times and my ax still hasnt dropped, and the one time it did someone else won the roll!"

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Well, I disliked WoD a lot but it never was as bad as BfA so... there's that. And my statement isn't contradictory. BfA is everything WoW shouldn't have become. A boring, pointless, watered down version of itself (or let's say of Legion, because that's what BfA is - a watered down Legion).

explain why you think wod was better then BFA
tons of people use wod as a buzz word "literally worse then wod" but then give literally no examples of how or why

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good to know that if i dislike how my class turns out i can just unsub until the next xpac.

would you rather
you like your class, then in the middle of an expansion it gets an entire rework to the point you hate it?
then a new patch just came out but you need to change class

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I have a friends list of 50+ people who used to play the game and all, and I mean literally all, of them have quit in the past 6 months. I also have the anecdotal evidence of people sharing similar stories of their friends lists drying up, guilds collapsing, and general displeasure with the game.

It takes a pretty large set of horse blinders to ignore the avalanche of negative feedback about BfA.

awww man 50 people, even if only 500,000 people were playing wow, that would be equal to 0.01%
oh yeah and im sure you asked all those 50 friends why they quit, and they all said its cause the game is awful, and not because one doesent have the time anymore, and one does not have a good enough computer anymore, or one is bored of the mmo genre

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Overall Legion had great class design in my opinion, never had so much fun with so many classes(all of them) and several specs within each of them. BfA definitely toned it down a bit for quite a few specs, some got more fun, and some got less fun, but overall they feel a tad to slow to play really. Simple solution is of course do something with the GCD that they changed. An "easy" fix to make at least a few more specs more fun.

except all the classes that were complaining about their class for all of legion?

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no there isn't, an item drop is average 25%, means u most likely see it once a month, the problem was mainly how many need it too, and u can determine that with DKP to guarantee if u want that chest u'll get it
in BFA most guilds don't even use dkp since it means sh8t when reward has no relation to effort but pure rng, and blizz already made loot personal anyway



i just rolled a warlock to check game, got to lvl 10, logged out
even in vanilla, which was 14 years ago, i had more spells to use at lvl 10 than now

LOLOL ITEM DROPS HAVE A 25% DRP CHANCE AVERAGE!?

yeah you didnt play vanilla, that is bloody fucking obvioius its pathetic.

also nah, you have more spells now at 10 then in vanilla, but they are split over 3 specs

come on man its sad

[cparle87]

No more praying to RNGesus? Wow, talk about rose-tinted glasses. There's at LEAST as much RNG in Classic loot as there is on live. Are you aware that 40-man raid bosses in Classic drop 2-3 items per boss?

There also literally is content gating, or do you think Naxx will be available at launch?

Their argument will be "at least I know I'll eventually get the thing and will be done, and won't have to keep running the same thing hoping for an incremental improvement via a socket or titanforging."

[potis]

Their argument will be "at least I know I'll eventually get the thing and will be done, and won't have to keep running the same thing hoping for an incremental improvement via a socket or titanforging."

And then lose it to DKP to someone else after it finally dropped after 4+ months.

Or it got ninjaed.

And then the ninja will be known and this UTOPIA OF COMMUNITY WILL SHUN HIM INTO QUITTING.

[MrKnubbles]

So essentially there really is no reason to re-sub for 8.2 because they are not fixing the broken classes / Good to know I can keep spending my money elsewhere.

By broken do you mean underperforming or unenjoyable? Because the new essence system may fix both of those issues.

[Thylight]

At least in Classic i had a purpose and I felt I was actually progressing. Even getting a green item, felt better then getting a rng purple throw away item

THIS. You basically log in, do piss-easy and boring 4 world quests, receive your "shiny purple" and throw it away.