[Suggestions updated] Pre-Legion/Ranged Survival

[Shelly]

Cry about it. Hunter tanks are a terrible idea. Pet-based tanking would be atrocious. Pets are infamously unreliable so relying on one for any sort of tanking would be bad. Yet the same time that's the only thing that would make a Hunter tank unique at all and not just Protection Warrior 2.0. So it's shit either way. Simply splitting damage with the pet would still be awful because then your healer would have to maintain the health of two targets instead of one.

Ignoring the mechanical problems, it's a shit idea for class identity too. Hunters are the exact opposite of the "deliberately draw attention to myself and take hits to the face" type. Why do you think we have misdirect? How the fuck is Rexxar of all characters a template for a TANK? You people really do think screeching "Rexxar" into a thread constitutes an argument, don't you?

I have NEVER seen a proposal that isn't utterly contemptable, and yours is no different. Wasting untold amount of time and effort for such a dumpster fire of an idea as a 4th spec is a total non-starter. Keep it to yourself, please.



Evidently not as no one cares to actually play it.

Also an interesting stance given your contempt of BM and the people who play it given that Survival depends on BM aspects specifically because it is melee.



Firstly, congratulations on finding a way of derailing yet another unrelated thread into "BM bad and dumb".

Secondly, it's good to have at least one spec in the game that is fully mobile. It's an interesting niche, it makes sense for Hunters to have it, and it makes them stand out. You can find difficulty in places other than movement. For example, BM has a strong cooldown management aspect compared to most specs, especially when you have Rapid Reload. There's a big difference between a BM Hunter who can properly plan out their cooldowns v.s. one that can't. That's a skill cap, as much as you love to pretend it doesn't exist.

Thirdly, what the fuck are you going on about with this "Hunters want an easy spec" crap? No one actually asked for that. In fact, people specifically asked for the opposite when they pruned a bunch of our abilities. In the very opening post of this thread and my reply we are advocating for a spec that derives maximum DPS potential from multidotting i.e. managing debuffs on multiple targets as well as a unique personal spec resource. That's the exact opposite of asking for an easy spec. It's certainly much more involved than "Generic Melee Spec #13". It blows me away how people still pretend SV is a spec that takes a significant amount of skill. This isn't Legion anymore and SV has a 4-button rotation like every other spec. Sounds like you're the one demanding easy brainless melee gameplay.

Do you need a hug?

Or a handjob even?

Like I'll do my best to hook you up with either if it'll relax you because right now you sound like a muppet being fisted by Andre the Giant.

Anyway, you don't even know what my ideas for how a hunter tanking spec would work.

Rexxar as model is the choice because of his synergy with Misha from WC3 and it wouldn't be the pet doing the tanking entirely it would be about the hunter and the pet splitting damage. Which isn't terrible given that you'd be using bandage pet to keep your pet up, healers have focus macros and cower could be actually useful as a form of active mitigation. So really think less warrior 2.0 and more warrior/monk lovechild.

And while I appreciate your passion as you might have picked up from the heavy sarcasm before - you don't speak for the entire hunter community. After reading your ramblings I'm not even sure you speak for yourself.

Anyway, I wish you well and hope that someday you'll realize that you'll never love anyone else until you learn to love yourself. Grow my simple caterpillar into the beautiful butterfly you were always meant to be.

[F Rm]

Cry about it. Hunter tanks are a terrible idea. Pet-based tanking would be atrocious. Pets are infamously unreliable so relying on one for any sort of tanking would be bad. Yet the same time that's the only thing that would make a Hunter tank unique at all and not just Protection Warrior 2.0. So it's shit either way. Simply splitting damage with the pet would still be awful because then your healer would have to maintain the health of two targets instead of one.

Ignoring the mechanical problems, it's a shit idea for class identity too. Hunters are the exact opposite of the "deliberately draw attention to myself and take hits to the face" type. Why do you think we have misdirect? How the fuck is Rexxar of all characters a template for a TANK? You people really do think screeching "Rexxar" into a thread constitutes an argument, don't you?

I have NEVER seen a proposal that isn't utterly contemptable, and yours is no different. Wasting untold amount of time and effort for such a dumpster fire of an idea as a 4th spec is a total non-starter. Keep it to yourself, please.



Evidently not as no one cares to actually play it.

Also an interesting stance given your contempt of BM and the people who play it given that Survival depends on BM aspects specifically because it is melee.



Firstly, congratulations on finding a way of derailing yet another unrelated thread into "BM bad and dumb".

Secondly, it's good to have at least one spec in the game that is fully mobile. It's an interesting niche, it makes sense for Hunters to have it, and it makes them stand out. You can find difficulty in places other than movement. For example, BM has a strong cooldown management aspect compared to most specs, especially when you have Rapid Reload. There's a big difference between a BM Hunter who can properly plan out their cooldowns v.s. one that can't. That's a skill cap, as much as you love to pretend it doesn't exist.

Thirdly, what the fuck are you going on about with this "Hunters want an easy spec" crap? No one actually asked for that. In fact, people specifically asked for the opposite when they pruned a bunch of our abilities. In the very opening post of this thread and my reply we are advocating for a spec that derives maximum DPS potential from multidotting i.e. managing debuffs on multiple targets as well as a unique personal spec resource. That's the exact opposite of asking for an easy spec. It's certainly much more involved than "Generic Melee Spec #13". It blows me away how people still pretend SV is a spec that takes a significant amount of skill. This isn't Legion anymore and SV has a 4-button rotation like every other spec. Sounds like you're the one demanding easy brainless melee gameplay.

Do you need a hug?

Or a handjob even?

Like I'll do my best to hook you up with either if it'll relax you because right now you sound like a muppet being fisted by Andre the Giant.

Anyway, you don't even know what my ideas for how a hunter tanking spec would work.

Rexxar as model is the choice because of his synergy with Misha from WC3 and it wouldn't be the pet doing the tanking entirely it would be about the hunter and the pet splitting damage. Which isn't terrible given that you'd be using bandage pet to keep your pet up, healers have focus macros and cower could be actually useful as a form of active mitigation. So really think less warrior 2.0 and more warrior/monk lovechild.

And while I appreciate your passion as you might have picked up from the heavy sarcasm before - you don't speak for the entire hunter community. After reading your ramblings I'm not even sure you speak for yourself.

Anyway, I wish you well and hope that someday you'll realize that you'll never love anyone else until you learn to love yourself. Grow my simple caterpillar into the beautiful butterfly you were always meant to be.

I would appreciate it if we could refrain from certain, personally directed sentences. Many are passionate about what they want/like and what not, sure.
But please, let's keep that to a minimum as it only leads one way.

Putting that aside, Rexxar as a model for any type of melee based fighting as a hunter has been a popular referens for years. He fully embraces the bond between the hunter and the pet. The intensity of melee combat you could argue, is also increased due to Rexxar fighting with 2 1H-weapons, which gives a sense of increase to speed and action/thrill.
Many players state that he is in fact a BM hunter fighting in melee-style. Others claim that he is actually a Survival hunter. The thing is..he is neither of those. And he is also both of them. As a major lore character in WoW, he has more leeway in terms of what things he can do. We see this no matter which of the major characters in WoW we look at.

Now, as far as adding a tank spec to the hunter class. It's a intriguing thought yes. Sadly, considering where we are at today and how the pet AI currently works...any tanking done by your pet in for example a raid environment, it wouldn't work that well. You as a player have very few reliable ways to control your pet, what it does, where it goes and how it reacts to mechanics.

The referens to Monks and the Stagger effect(for hunters, splitting damage between hunter and pet), this could actually work.
You could fully embrace the Spirit Bond that exists between hunters and pets. Where, any damage you as the hunter take, is split with your pet. And vice versa. The same could go for incoming heals, as in, your pet gets healed, you get healed and vice versa. Or you could make it so, your pet heals would be stronger which would make you able to keep your pet alive. And the healers would only have to focus on you.
This however, could cause you as a hunter tank to be even more powerful than the Monk Stagger effect. Where would we balance it? How would we balance it?

Gameplay wise, we have seen tank classes with pets before in the game(earlier versions of DKs). Blizzard have since moved away from this concept due to certain downsides with how it worked, both threat-wise but also in terms of how it could complicate balancing between what you/your pet should be capable of doing.
Class fantasy wise, a hunter tank spec would essentially be a mix between: Current Survival, WotLK DKs, along with some elements of Brewmaster Monks, DPS Warriors as well as maybe a bit of Rogue in there to.



Now, as complexity/difficulty goes. Casting that restricts movement is one factor. A fighting style that has a focus on DoT management/multi-DoT'ing is another.
The hunter class has always been the class with little to no movement restrictions. Which A LOT of people like. No matter what spec you choose.
Marksmanship is partially restricted but still, very little. But adding in multiple ways to restrict movement just for the sake of having it...why?
We have, I think, 5 classes already(druid, shaman, mage, priest, warlock) with specs that are more or less restricted in terms of movement.
Let one class be without this, as again, many players like it that way.

Now, the concept of multi-dot'ing/DoT-management, this was sort of tried in Legion with Survival. But it was a big mess really. For hunters to have this as an option, most would answer that the best way to have this option is through a ranged spec. Not a melee spec.

[Ghost10491]

As much as I miss ranged SV, your proposed spec just feels too much like a mobile MM at least as far as base rotation. And before people jump down my throat, I do not think they should get rid of melee SV. I have tried it, and it wasn't for me, but it does have an audience and I don't want anyone to feel like I did when they got rid of ranged SV. Back to my point now. Explosive/Aimed Shot have 2 charges, don't let them cap or it's a dps loss. You have a cast on cooldown ability with rapid fire/black arrow. You have a basic focus dump with arcane/quick shot. Use steady shot to regain focus without capping. Besides that, too many talents based on pet use. This is where people are coming up with the MM+BM statement.

I'm not saying it's all bad ideas though. The CD you came up with is very interesting, although I would change the mechanic of black arrow slightly. Instead of stacking, I would give it the ability to apply multiple times, like Unstable Affliction for aff warlocks. Have black arrow increase dmg we deal, therefore multiple stacks would have more burst potential as it would apply a powerful dot, and also make everything we else do be more powerful. I like a lot of aspects of Fpic Eail's spec, like the WoD lock n' load effect becoming a resource, and this version of black arrow would give us powerful burst windows.

Before I go further(sorry for jumping around, i'm a little drunk), let me explain how I feel the different spec fantasies should play out. BM should be mobile, have powerful aoe through pet cleave, have an extra strong utility through their pets that other hunters don't have, and generally be more forgiving in nature. To me, there's nothing wrong with a class having an easy to play spec, as long as the class is still fun to play, and would probably have a lower ceiling in terms of overall dmg.
MM should have a pretty structured rotation that relies on proper focus use, and because it's main ability cannot be cast on the move, being able to find your ground and fire. The majority of the abilities would be mobile, with the exception of aimed shot. While it would come off as a rather simple rotation, it would be unforgiving in your dps loss if you mess it up. Also, big crits, which rapid fire fails to provide.
Ranged SV, on the other hand, is another completely mobile spec, but with the timing more in the hands of the hunter, as would be the case with Fpic Eail's proposed spec. While MM would probably have more consistent dmg, SV would provide burst dmg unparalleled by other hunter specs, and the ability to spread cleave, as well as having extra utility through traps(this is where the "survival" name comes in handy)

Back to your spec, as i said a combination of your's and FpicEail's would be pretty good. I would like to see ranged SV focus generator be through serpent sting, but this may be hard to implement in practice. I also agree with the fact that traps should not be part of basic dps rotation. I like the neurotoxin mastery. I hate masteries that just are "increases dmg of your abilities". That is boring. Masteries should add flair. I would make ever burning talent baseline, and change explosive shot to something like this. "Deals x% dmg as fire dmg spread evenly to all enemies within 8 yards of your target. When this ability hits 4+ targets, the dmg is doubled". This makes it a strong aoe and ST ability, giving SV the versatility that really seperates it from MM. Keep wildfire bomb. Wildfire infusion could easily be edited slightly to this spec. Green- doubles focus gained from serpent sting ticks on targets hit for 6 seconds. Red-Gives 1 stack of Lock n' Load per target hit. Blue-resets any applications of Black Arrow(charged shot, i like the lightning idea)

I'm losing my train of thought. Sorry for the long post. Also melee SV hunters, stop shitting on us. They took our favorite spec from us. Telling us to just play another spec or class isn't the same. Ranged hunters, people like the melee for some reason, stop shitting on each other, we all just want to enjoy a game. But, hunter tank sounds shitty. Please God no.

[F Rm]

As much as I miss ranged SV, your proposed spec just feels too much like a mobile MM at least as far as base rotation. Explosive/Aimed Shot have 2 charges, don't let them cap or it's a dps loss. You have a cast on cooldown ability with rapid fire/black arrow. You have a basic focus dump with arcane/quick shot. Use steady shot to regain focus without capping.

Hi Ghost, well, to a degree you're not wrong. There are certain similarities you could refer to as far as MM goes. However…

First off, sorry for the long reply. I got a bit carried away as well
Note: this is NOT me going personal on you. This is me providing my basic thought process as to what I find justified to put in the game.

No matter what hunter spec you look at, you'll find these similarities you mention, but with certain twists too them.

For starters...
-BM had Dire Beast/Dire Frenzy(later became Barbed Shot).
-Marksmanship after that got Aimed Shot which has the same foundation of that of a 2-charge ability with a fairly short CD.
The difference? One is a focus builder, the other a focus dump. Both are core abilities within each spec.

With BfA, they literally copied over Kill Command to Survival from BM with the twist of it now being a focus builder rather than a dump. You can even talent into Alpha Predator and Kill Command for Survival becomes a 2-charge ability that deals a fair amount of dmg. Which makes it even more similar to that of Barbed Shot(and Aimed Shot).

Regular focus dumps for each existing spec?
-BM has Cobra Shot, that interacts somewhat with Kill Command(CD reduction).
-Marksmanship has Arcane Shot(which can be empowered by using Aimed Shot first).
-"Melee" Survival has Raptor Strike(and can talent into Mongoose Bite for a different fight style/rotation).
-Ranged "Survival"(or w/e we should call it) with my design from above, would have Quick Shot(and you can talent into Dire Frenzy for a different fight style/rotation).

Cast on CD abilities(mid range CD that is)?
-BM has nothing here but can talent into things such as Dire Beast, Chimera Shot, A Murder of Crows, Barrage(most similar to that of Rapid Fire for MM), and lastly Spitting Cobra(might be on a bit to long of a CD to count here but still, it's a use-on-CD ability). You also have Stampede, though it's on a 3 min CD and I would count it more towards being an extension of your Major CD(s) as BM.

-Marksmanship has Rapid Fire baseline and can talent into A Murder of Crows, Explosive Shot, Barrage(oh look, MM has 2 Rapid Fire abilities, one intended for ST and one AoE, even Rapid Fire can do some AoE with a specific talent picked), and finally MM also has the talent Piercing Shot.

-"Melee" Survival has Wildfire Bomb baseline and can talent into A Murder of Crows, Steel Trap, Flanking Strike and Chakrams. You could even add the talent Terms of Engagement here as for certain aspects of the game, it makes your Harpoon a default part of your rotation/opener(especially when doing solo/open world stuff).
I guess partially you could count Carve/Butchery here as well for certain parts of the game.

-Ranged "Survival" above would have Black Arrow and Immolation Trap baseline and you can talent into Dire Frenzy(although charge based), Resourcefulness which makes your Freezing Trap able to become a offensive damage boost despite it being more of a passive power-up rather than an active ability that deals damage.



While sure, all spec specific abilities/talents have slight differences to them, and yet, you can draw lines in between them and you'll find some sort of pattern. All 3 existing specs have A Murder of Crows. 2 specs have Barrage, the third has Chakrams(which is a bit more focused, but has the same CD and does AoE damage).

My point is, look deep enough into most of the specs in the game(not only that of Hunters) and you will find references and similarities all over.
Is this a good argument for why we should add in another spec of which has aspects that partially can be referenced to other specs? Not really.
And yet, if you compare already existing specs and the slight differences their respective abilities has with what things you could get from the spec I'm proposing,
I find justification for why we should have a spec such as that one. Because it would be enough of a difference as opposed to what we already have.

Besides that, too many talents based on pet use.

There are several talents focused on the use of your pet idd. This is very much intentional.
Why? The Hunter class already have a spec that is very much focused on not using a pet(despite that you do have the option to have one active).

Baseline, for ranged "Survival" the involvement of your pet with how you play when doing group content wouldn't be more than that of a passive DoT that moves around. For solo content, you could get your pet to tank stuff but nothing more.
Having talents that focus on pet use and what your pet can do. It's a way to further differentiate my spec suggestion from that of Marksmanship(one way, as well as others).

Besides, giving you focus on the use of pets through talents allows for it to be optional as opposed to having these things in there baseline. And most of the talents involving your pet are focused on minor effects or your basic focus dump. Not really any major core abilities. Sure, Rapid Recuperation as a talent involves your pet, but is on it's own a passive talent. The effect of it reducing the CD of your Rapid Fire only impacts the things you already do yourself, not what you tell your pet to do.

I would change the mechanic of black arrow slightly. Instead of stacking, I would give it the ability to apply multiple times, like Unstable Affliction for aff warlocks.

Interesting that you bring this up as this is something I did consider quite a few times. As you say, it would give you more burst potential while taking away part of your ability to maintain higher damage over time as you couldn't delay the use of Black Arrows to cause the debuff on your target to last longer at full stacks.
It's a give or take situation, and is ALL ABOUT personal preference really.

But yeah, you're right, I did consider this option.

To me, there's nothing wrong with a class having an easy to play spec, as long as the class is still fun to play, and would probably have a lower ceiling in terms of overall dmg.

Well, yes and no(mostly no if you ask me). Considering there are NO fights whatsoever, where there is enough of an upside with high mobility compared to movement restrictions for this to be justified.

Also, big crits, which rapid fire fails to provide.

Rapid Fire for MM is intended as a focus builder and there are VERY FEW cases where you find resource builders to also have high damage potential.

While MM would probably have more consistent dmg, SV would provide burst dmg unparalleled by other hunter specs, and the ability to spread cleave, as well as having extra utility through traps(this is where the "survival" name comes in handy)

I would argue that it should be/and is the exact opposite. MM with it's more hard-hitting, instant damage-based abilities is/should be the short window-burst spec while ranged Survival would be the less bursty, consistent spec that builds up it's damage.
Why? I would say it fits the fantasy more this way. Standing still and lining up perfectly aimed shots(I couldn't resist... ), should mean that in short windows of time you could push out A LOT of damage before moving to another place.
If you're moving around all the time, not having perfect aim but at the same time, this wouldn't really matter anyway as your toxins/venoms and explosives would do the job for you as long as you hit your enemy. This would fit better with a more steady/consistent playstyle.

Again, this is entirely based on what we in our heads imagine actual Spec Fantasy to be.

I would like to see ranged SV focus generator be through serpent sting, but this may be hard to implement in practice.

I might be a bit biased but I believe you can find this in my suggested talent setup. The Death Adder-talent is one way to do it. The Viper Venom-talent is another. They wouldn't be your main source of focus generation but they would both certainly do their part to it depending on how/when you utilize them.

I like the neurotoxin mastery. I hate masteries that just are "increases dmg of your abilities". That is boring. Masteries should add flair.

100% agree with this. Which is also the very reason as to why I did provide this suggestion for a Mastery bonus effect and not just the old one we used to have that gave us more % to damage(the one called Mixologist, with the fantasy of you just being better at preparing your toxins/venoms and explosives, making them more potent overall).

I would make ever burning talent baseline, and change explosive shot to something like this. "Deals x% dmg as fire dmg spread evenly to all enemies within 8 yards of your target. When this ability hits 4+ targets, the dmg is doubled". This makes it a strong aoe and ST ability, giving SV the versatility that really seperates it from MM. Keep wildfire bomb. Wildfire infusion could easily be edited slightly to this spec. Green- doubles focus gained from serpent sting ticks on targets hit for 6 seconds. Red-Gives 1 stack of Lock n' Load per target hit. Blue-resets any applications of Black Arrow(charged shot, i like the lightning idea)

I did consider something like this at first. In the end I chose to stick with the original base design of what Explosive Shot would actually do. The change being it having a slightly longer CD but with 2 charges as a way to provide a bit more initial burst potential. Plus this would allow for some fun talent-design potential(for example, speaking of T.N.T, Ever Burning(Burst to AoE damage, no matter how many enemies are present), as well as Catalysis.

As far as Wildfire Bomb/Wildfire Infusion goes, I would say that this is more dependent on my spec suggestion being a replacement for current "melee"-survival. Which it ISN'T.

Blue-resets any applications of Black Arrow(charged shot, i like the lightning idea)

I brought this up on the first page of comments as to why the electric/lightning theme wasn't added despite having it's potential fantasy.
Firstly, I left it out as I wanted to stick more with what the core of ranged Survival was in the past. Which involved Black Arrow(again, it needs a name change for the hunters that use a gun, thanks).
Secondly, If you look at certain talents I've proposed and what they do(example: Catalysis), the synergy with Fire based damaging abilities and the reality of what a catalyst is, I just decided that this would fit better with the spec.

Also, if they would ever introduce a Tinker class to the game, I believe this class would have a strong influence of the lightning-/electric-theme.

Again, preferences! Personal preferences...!

I'm losing my train of thought. Sorry for the long post. Also melee SV hunters, stop shitting on us. They took our favorite spec from us. Telling us to just play another spec or class isn't the same. Ranged hunters, people like the melee for some reason, stop shitting on each other, we all just want to enjoy a game.

Idd.
Also one reason as for why I made the design choices that I did. And why I want it to be a 4th spec. Separate from the other, existing ones.
Removing existing specs entirely in favor of something new(especially when it involves completely different playstyles from what is currently there)...yeah, better choices have been made in the past. This was not one of them. If they wanted hunters to have a melee-option, it should have been given to us as a 4th spec from the beginning.

Imagine if they, far back in time, had decided when splitting Feral druids into Guardians/Feral Combat that they would have just removed Feral in favor of the tank spec. Sure, one is a tank spec and the other a dps spec. But still, imagine what those who loved either side would've said if they had lost their favorite?

[Nythiz]

So basically mm+bm mix. Not a fan. Current survival is perfect, good thing ranged surv was scrapped.

I know it's fun to create fan fiction so I can see where you are coming from, but survival will never be ranged again. Its time to move on.

The whole fan fiction is what created melee spec in the first place.
A small, but loud, minority wishing for a 'vanilla melee spec' that never really existed.

The current Survival melee spec is fun in a vacuum, but in the grander picture it doesn't really fit well. It lacks some depth compared to some of the other melee specs and also lacks some utility. It feels a bit like a retri paladin without the utility of a retri.

I think with some optimization melee Survival could be both fun and good. Some added quality of life and added utility to make it feel more in it's own place as a melee spec.
Currently it's not there though; no matter how much many people really like survival, it's down bottom in the popularity rankings on a class that's near the top of the popularity rankings.

Plus it hurts a bit when you realize that:
a) Ranged survival was very much liked as a hunter spec throughout several expansions. Unlike melee survival it had quite a big popularity depending on it's strenght/viability in raiding. Unlike Melee survival which has always been unpopular regardless of how good it is vs the other 2 specs.

b) A survival-esque spec (ranged / multidotting / procs) is a gap that very much exists with ranged hunter specs right now. A gap that the old survival fitted perfectly but is now quite void.

too many pet talents, they would work for BM though.
.

Agreed with this.

The OP has some good ideas for ranged survival. But I feel like it's too highly leaning on enhancing the pet. Which is a BM thing.

For survival ranged spec the pet shouldn't be the spear point of your damage, it's role should be to enhance and support the hunter.
So instead of having talents like " Dire Frenzy " which makes the pet stronger, the pet should trigger things that make the hunter stronger.
Survival shouldn't be BM.

Similarly, lone would should NOT be an option for survival. The pet is (and has been) a staple for the hunter spec from the early age.
Lone Wolf makes sense for marksman where the spec fantasy revolves around all the power being on the side of the hunter (archer archetype).
For survival, as mentioned, you could make the hunter pet buff the hunter instead of the hunter making the pet stronger (which is the case for BM).

Sounds like another boring faceroll spec like BM with all instant casts and full mobility. What’s the point of having 3 different dps specs if they are all very similar. It would fit the hunter well to have at least one spec that is just a little bit engaging to play. BM is almost just an auto-attack spec.

Only you can enter a discussion about ranged survival and make it about how faceroll BM is.
Jeez. I realize that some BM hunter has probably hurt your pride severely for you to have this much of a grudge against the spec. But really dude get the F over yourself and your hate for BM. You're doing nothing polluting each and every topic you enter.

If the BM hunter keeps kicking your ass, maybe learn to be better.

I agree 100 %.

All this “make survival ranged again” is getting pathetic.

Ironic. Calling stuff patethic when your only "contribution" to the hunter forums so far has been crying like a 5 year old about how easy BM hunter have it.
Pot Cattle Black.

[Kaver]

Only you can enter a discussion about ranged survival and make it about how faceroll BM is.
Jeez. I realize that some BM hunter has probably hurt your pride severely for you to have this much of a grudge against the spec. But really dude get the F over yourself and your hate for BM. You're doing nothing polluting each and every topic you enter.

If the BM hunter keeps kicking your ass, maybe learn to be better.

I bring up BM because people are talking about a ranged survival that has the same boring gameplay as BM.

BM is the most lack-luster spec ever. It is so boring. People only plays it because it can be done with one hand and no effort. There is no need to have two specs like that. Hunters don't need 3 ranged specs and in Vanilla survival was about SURVIVAL and utility. It was not a dot spec.

It seems like you people just want a robot spec that plays itself and get arroused by being on the top of the damage meters. What about getting some specs which are actually challenging and engaging to play (challenge = fun).

This is my opinion and I'm allowed to have that. You getting personal because you don't agree is just pathetic and embarrassing.

[F Rm]

Plus it hurts a bit when you realize that:
a) Ranged survival was very much liked as a hunter spec throughout several expansions. Unlike melee survival it had quite a big popularity depending on it's strenght/viability in raiding.

Idd.
One of the most popular topics in regards to class discussions/forums overall, is the topic of players requesting the return of ranged Survival.

Sadly, what also is kinda forgotten through all of it is that most players who asks for it, they want the <Insert Patch -.-.- Here> version of the spec back. Which is something that can't really be done.
Why? because any version of ranged Survival that we have had in the past was based/built on different foundations from what we have today. They were based on different class/spec philosophies, talent-systems etc.

In order to bring anything the likes of which back, we have to do it in a way that fits the systems we have today. You can always draw inspiration from what we had before. But you cannot "bring before" back to today, or well, you can but that requires changing the game as a whole. They are doing a version of this with Classic. But that's different. They are creating a modern version of a different game that we had in the past.
What they aren't doing, is putting the old game back into the current one.

b) A survival-esque spec (ranged / multidotting / procs) is a gap that very much exists with ranged hunter specs right now. A gap that the old survival fitted perfectly but is now quite void.

Yep. Very true.

The OP has some good ideas for ranged survival. But I feel like it's too highly leaning on enhancing the pet. Which is a BM thing.

For survival ranged spec the pet shouldn't be the spear point of your damage, it's role should be to enhance and support the hunter.
So instead of having talents like " Dire Frenzy " which makes the pet stronger, the pet should trigger things that make the hunter stronger.
Survival shouldn't be BM.

I don't like to go personal on someone's opinion but it feels like you haven't actually read my suggestions in the top post.
Looking at your comment there, it feels like you went straight down to the Talents section and as soon as you read Dire Frenzy, you stopped reading. Is this the case? Maybe not. But it feels like it is when reading your comment.

In no part of my post will you find anything that suggests that your pet will be the spear point/focus of your damage.

If you look at the sections:
Core Abilities
Major Cooldown(s)
Mastery Bonus Ideas
Passive Effects

There is nothing in regards to your pet. As a base, your pet is but a passive DoT that moves around and can tank for you when doing solo stuff/open world content.

Moving to Talents
Dire Frenzy was in the past one of the core abilities for Beast Mastery yes. But it has since been removed in favor of a ranged ability that is a bleed + power-up and a focus generator.

As a base, for this ranged version of Survival. I wanted to re-introduce Dire Frenzy as it would be a way for this spec to have some element of pet dependency for anyone who might want that.
This version of Dire Frenzy when picked, replaces your minor focus spender Quick Shot. Gives some flare to it. It will by no means make you want to prioritize it over let's say Explosive Shot/Serpent Sting/Black Arrow/Immolation Trap and more.

Mostly, it's a way to ease your time in the open world. To provide some quick instant damage done by your pet. Which will help your pet tank stuff for you(especially if you go with the talent Ferocious Inspiration).
In group content where you probably don't need your pet to tank anything, you can just as well pick other talents.
Like T.N.T.
And for AoE you could also pick Ever Burning which causes Explosive Shot to do damage to everything near the primary target.

You also have two talents that does exactly what you want. They provide a way for your pet to "trigger" things to make YOU stronger.
I'm speaking of The Beast Within as well as Rapid Recuperation.

Similarly, lone would should NOT be an option for survival. The pet is (and has been) a staple for the hunter spec from the early age.

Yep, but if you look back to when we did have ranged Survival. It did have aspects that involved you as the hunter, that in some way told your pet to do something/empowered your pet.

Like you said yourself

Lone Wolf makes sense for marksman where the spec fantasy revolves around all the power being on the side of the hunter (archer archetype)..

Ranged Survival(or w/e name we give the spec) is not/should not be Marksmanship.

For survival, as mentioned, you could make the hunter pet buff the hunter instead of the hunter making the pet stronger (which is the case for BM).

Again, my suggestions provide this.
Anything you can choose to spec for that buffs your pet and not you, is either only a minor part of your playstyle or a passive effect which does not really affect what you do anyway.

Only you can enter a discussion about ranged survival and make it about how faceroll BM is.
Jeez. I realize that some BM hunter has probably hurt your pride severely for you to have this much of a grudge against the spec. But really dude get the F over yourself and your hate for BM. You're doing nothing polluting each and every topic you enter.

I cannot speak for what has occurred/been said in other threads but I will say this.

To anyone who says that Ranged Survival and it's playstyle will be the same, and will be as simple as BM. Think again.
BM is pretty much all about instant damage. With Pet Management, Cooldown management, and Resource management.
Ranged Survival would be(and have since we got the Cataclysm overhaul) been about DoT Management. It never really had any proper burst windows. It was almost always about that steady stream of consistent damage.
The only real similarity that could be drawn was that(by WoD) both of them were 100% mobile as a base. You could pick extra talents ofc. But those were optional playstyles.

By todays standards, as far as similarities between specs goes. I would like to refer to reply nr #24 in this thread.
Here I do a fast comparison between the 3 current hunter specs we have on live and how they differentiate from/would be similar to that of the ranged Survival spec I propose. Heck you could compare several specs in the game, not just hunter specific ones, and you would find certain patterns.

Hunters don't need 3 ranged specs and in Vanilla survival was about SURVIVAL and utility. It was not a dot spec.

When most players ask for the return of ranged Survival. They do not ask for the spec we had in Vanilla. They ask for the DoT-based version we had from Cata-WoD.
Besides, Vanilla is making it's return in the form of Classic so anyone who wants that version of Survival. It will be there.

What about getting some specs which are actually challenging and engaging to play (challenge = fun).

If DoT-management is not challenging. If CD Management + Pet Management etc. isn't challenging. Then what is?
What would you say is the thing that the hunter class needs to have aspects that are challenging?

You want more movement restrictions? We already have 5 specs in the game that focus on dealing damage with more or less elements that limits your movement capabilities while...performing actions.

This is my opinion and I'm allowed to have that.

You very much are. But if you make statements as facts towards specific aspects of a class/spec, saying that it is a certain way. I would urge you to also provide a foundation as to why you think they are what they are.

And more importantly, provide suggestions of your own that clarifies to others what your preferences are and why they would make for better options over what you don't like. Because simply saying that something isn't good or isn't unique enough, doesn't really provide much helpful information.

It seems like you people just want a robot spec that plays itself and get arroused by being on the top of the damage meters.

If you were to play the spec I propose in my top post. And if you were to play as if the spec plays itself. What you would end up with is the following:
-Auto Attack damage(from your ranged weapon)
-Auto Attack damage(from your pet)
-Basic Attack damage(from your pet)

...and depending on what talents you choose, you could get some additional damage out from passive effects/talents.

Now, I have no actual way to test the spec in the game so I cannot say for certain. But I estimate that these things would make up for 15-25% of your total damage output capability as opposed to if you were to utilize everything the spec had to offer. Give or take.

[Ghost10491]

Rapid Fire for MM is intended as a focus builder and there are VERY FEW cases where you find resource builders to also have high damage potential.



I would argue that it should be/and is the exact opposite. MM with it's more hard-hitting, instant damage-based abilities is/should be the short window-burst spec while ranged Survival would be the less bursty, consistent spec that builds up it's damage.
Why? I would say it fits the fantasy more this way. Standing still and lining up perfectly aimed shots(I couldn't resist... ), should mean that in short windows of time you could push out A LOT of damage before moving to another place.
If you're moving around all the time, not having perfect aim but at the same time, this wouldn't really matter anyway as your toxins/venoms and explosives would do the job for you as long as you hit your enemy. This would fit better with a more steady/consistent playstyle.

Again, this is entirely based on what we in our heads imagine actual Spec Fantasy to be.

When you compare old MM and current MM, the "use on CD" ability changed from Chimaera Shot, to Rapid Fire currently. While they are significantly different, one being a focus spender, one being a generator, it is very clear to at least me which I prefer. While Rapid Fire can hit extremely hard when timed right with double tap, as an MM hunter i much prefer seeing one giant number come up on my screen, which gives me more the feeling of a sniper getting a headshot, which is what the spec is all about to me. This is obviously my personal opinion, but i do think there's many people who agree with me.

As far as the difference between the burst/sustained in MM and SV, I agree that MM has short burst windows when they can find their ground and remain stationary for a couple seconds, but I would not classify this as a truly bursty rotation, because the act of casting Aimed Shot should be a core part of the rotation that is used frequently, adding to the difficulty of playing MM vs SV/BM, which are both completely mobile. SV, on the otherhand, to me has always been about outsmarting your opponent. You are not a sniper who can simply murder whatever crosses your path before it reaches you, but rather, a tracker/ranger in the woods. A predator who has to know how and when to kill his prey. This is why I believe SV should have the much burstier windows. In PvP, this would equate to using the tools at your disposal to survive until your opponent blows his CD's, then go in for the kill. In PvE, this would be knowing when your group needs steady damage, and when they need heavy burst. Or if they need kiting, or multidotting. To me, SV should be the baby of a Aff lock/arcane mage/bm/MM hunter.

After reading your reply, I am changing my mind a little on your pet talents. For reasons stated above, giving SV hunters the ability to strengthen their pet play adds a strong tool in the way of your pet, and SV hunters should be versatile.
However, I still do not agree with traps being a core part of the rotation, but rather talented, which you mostly provided except for immolation trap being baseline. Simply having to aim a trap as a core part of rotation does not sound fun to me. I do not like gimmicky abilities, the until recent explosive shot was a gimmicky ability that everyone hated.

Again, this is simply my opinion, and people are going to have different ideas, as you said, on their spec fantasy for SV.

[Bepples]

Similarly, lone would should NOT be an option for survival. The pet is (and has been) a staple for the hunter spec from the early age.
Lone Wolf makes sense for marksman where the spec fantasy revolves around all the power being on the side of the hunter (archer archetype).
For survival, as mentioned, you could make the hunter pet buff the hunter instead of the hunter making the pet stronger (which is the case for BM).

For me it does make sense for Survival to have Lone Wolf. Ranged SV also had an archetype that is independent of the pet just like MM. That's why Lone Wolf was an option in WoD.

Only you can enter a discussion about ranged survival and make it about how faceroll BM is.

He went into a thread I posted in about HFC and whether or not it was a good raid and made that one about BM being too easy, too. There comes a point where it stops being an innocent expression of one's opinion and a concerted, transparent effort to troll Hunters and he has far surpassed that point.

I bring up BM because people are talking about a ranged survival that has the same boring gameplay as BM.

The archetype for SV being discussed is vastly different to BM. Stop trying to justify your dearailing.

BM is the most lack-luster spec ever. It is so boring. People only plays it because it can be done with one hand and no effort.

That's your own misinformed opinion, isn't it?

People like BM because it has a pretty dynamic rotation and full mobility. It fits well into a variety of situations despite not doing as much DPS as specs like MM. When you declare that all BM hunters are playing it because they want an easy spec you're just making an ignorant blanket assumption that has no basis in reality, especially since BM Hunters since Legion specifically asked for the spec to be more involved, active, and complex and that wish was granted in BFA.

There is no need to have two specs like that. Hunters don't need 3 ranged specs and in Vanilla survival was about SURVIVAL and utility. It was not a dot spec.

It was not a melee spec either, but here you are defending it being melee and pretending that somehow that makes it so much more complex. They added the DoT aspect to Survival because they wanted Survival to actually be an independent DPS spec and not be relegated a dependent support role, and the DoTting aspect played into the existing utilitarian theme well.

It seems like you people just want a robot spec that plays itself and get arroused by being on the top of the damage meters. What about getting some specs which are actually challenging and engaging to play (challenge = fun).

I'll repeat what I said in my last post. You know, the part you conveniently ignored.

If we wanted an easy brainless spec, why in the everloving fuck would we be asking for a spec with multidotting?

This is my opinion and I'm allowed to have that. You getting personal because you don't agree is just pathetic and embarrassing.

You're allowed to have it, and we are similarly allowed to have our own opinion which is that your opinion is rubbish. What's really pathetic and embarrassing here is your pigheaded approach to these arguments where you ignore any and all counter points and just repeat the same one-liners ad nauseam.

[Kaver]

The archetype for SV being discussed is vastly different to BM. Stop trying to justify your dearailing.



That's your own misinformed opinion, isn't it?

People like BM because it has a pretty dynamic rotation and full mobility. It fits well into a variety of situations despite not doing as much DPS as specs like MM. When you declare that all BM hunters are playing it because they want an easy spec you're just making an ignorant blanket assumption that has no basis in reality, especially since BM Hunters since Legion specifically asked for the spec to be more involved, active, and complex and that wish was granted in BFA.



It was not a melee spec either, but here you are defending it being melee and pretending that somehow that makes it so much more complex. They added the DoT aspect to Survival because they wanted Survival to actually be an independent DPS spec and not be relegated a dependent support role, and the DoTting aspect played into the existing utilitarian theme well.



I'll repeat what I said in my last post. You know, the part you conveniently ignored.

If we wanted an easy brainless spec, why in the everloving fuck would we be asking for a spec with multidotting?



You're allowed to have it, and we are similarly allowed to have our own opinion which is that your opinion is rubbish. What's really pathetic and embarrassing here is your pigheaded approach to these arguments where you ignore any and all counter points and just repeat the same one-liners ad nauseam.

The BM rotation is not dynamic. It's boring. There is not management or any engaging mechanics.

The only real difference from Legion is Barbed shot and that can be handled by the use of one brain cell. Just make sure to have a WeakAura that tells when to press Barbed shot and you're good to go. Other than that, every idiot can make sure to press Killing Machine on CD and press cobra shot to not cap focus. And if you're ever focus starved by spamming cobra shot you should not be allowed to move past kindergarden.

The combination of a brainless rotation + ranged attacks + no cast time + unlimited mobility is just not engaging or fun. It's clearly made for people who want to focus as little as possible on class/spec machanics. It's meant for people who cannot multitask and manage a rotation while not standing in fire.

The playstyle people propose for Survival is the same as BM in relation to:

- No cast time
- Unlimited mobility with ranged attacks
- Press whatever ability is ready
- No ressource management (ressource management of BM = Not spamming Cobra shot..... embarrassing!)

You just want to add dots to it and dots don't automatically make a spec more challenging. Multi-dot'ing would be a joke if it could be applied or refreshed by Multi-shot for example, and I think you would probably like that? The reason you want multi-dot'ing is not to make the spec more challenging, it is to be on top of the meters.

If Survival stays in the game then it should be melee because it makes no sence for hunters to have two brainless ranged specs. Otherwise just remove it from the game.

No need to get personal.

- - - Updated - - -

When most players ask for the return of ranged Survival. They do not ask for the spec we had in Vanilla. They ask for the DoT-based version we had from Cata-WoD.
Besides, Vanilla is making it's return in the form of Classic so anyone who wants that version of Survival. It will be there.



If DoT-management is not challenging. If CD Management + Pet Management etc. isn't challenging. Then what is?
What would you say is the thing that the hunter class needs to have aspects that are challenging?

You want more movement restrictions? We already have 5 specs in the game that focus on dealing damage with more or less elements that limits your movement capabilities while...performing actions.


You very much are. But if you make statements as facts towards specific aspects of a class/spec, saying that it is a certain way. I would urge you to also provide a foundation as to why you think they are what they are.

And more importantly, provide suggestions of your own that clarifies to others what your preferences are and why they would make for better options over what you don't like. Because simply saying that something isn't good or isn't unique enough, doesn't really provide much helpful information.



If you were to play the spec I propose in my top post. And if you were to play as if the spec plays itself. What you would end up with is the following:
-Auto Attack damage(from your ranged weapon)
-Auto Attack damage(from your pet)
-Basic Attack damage(from your pet)

...and depending on what talents you choose, you could get some additional damage out from passive effects/talents.

Now, I have no actual way to test the spec in the game so I cannot say for certain. But I estimate that these things would make up for 15-25% of your total damage output capability as opposed to if you were to utilize everything the spec had to offer. Give or take.

I was mentioning Vanilla to say that there are no Classic Warcraft fantasy that justifies the kind of Survival spec that you and others wants. So you can't use class fantasy as an argument.

CD and Pet management CAN be challenging. But BM has neither CD or Pet management. If you think BM has CD management you should try other specs in the game.

It's okay for BM to not have movement restrictions, but there should be compensation. No spec in the game should be king of all traits. You hunters want a spec that has:

- Simple rotation that is more like a priority list than a rotation
- High front-load burst for both single target, cleave and AOE.
- High sustained damage with dots and pets auto attacking
- 1-2 button AOE (multishot applying beast cleave and/or dots)
- Multi dot'ing which can be applied and refreshed without switching targets
- Unlimited mobility
- All ranged attacks
- Cast time while moving or no cast time at all
- Immunity
- Battleress or Hero

That kind of spec would just be ridiculous. I already think BM is ridiculous with the amount of performance you can get with no effort.

[Bepples]

Since you opted for a low-effort effective copy-paste of crap you've already said, I'll go ahead and literally copy-paste arguments right back at you. You are not worth the effort for a whole new post on my part when I know you'll just repeatedly come back with the same bad arguments over and over again.

The only new argument you actually brought up is how we apparently want trivial multidotting via multi-shot. That's nonsense because a) that doesn't apply to spread targets, which is a big deal, and b) it doesn't apply to Black Arrow multidotting. So add this to the pile of crap arguments you keep dumping on the forum.

Now, without further delay, here's my prior post. Hopefully some of it will sink in this time.

I bring up BM because people are talking about a ranged survival that has the same boring gameplay as BM.

The archetype for SV being discussed is vastly different to BM. Stop trying to justify your dearailing.

BM is the most lack-luster spec ever. It is so boring. People only plays it because it can be done with one hand and no effort.

That's your own misinformed opinion, isn't it?

People like BM because it has a pretty dynamic rotation and full mobility. It fits well into a variety of situations despite not doing as much DPS as specs like MM. When you declare that all BM hunters are playing it because they want an easy spec you're just making an ignorant blanket assumption that has no basis in reality, especially since BM Hunters since Legion specifically asked for the spec to be more involved, active, and complex and that wish was granted in BFA.

There is no need to have two specs like that. Hunters don't need 3 ranged specs and in Vanilla survival was about SURVIVAL and utility. It was not a dot spec.

It was not a melee spec either, but here you are defending it being melee and pretending that somehow that makes it so much more complex. They added the DoT aspect to Survival because they wanted Survival to actually be an independent DPS spec and not be relegated a dependent support role, and the DoTting aspect played into the existing utilitarian theme well.

It seems like you people just want a robot spec that plays itself and get arroused by being on the top of the damage meters. What about getting some specs which are actually challenging and engaging to play (challenge = fun).

I'll repeat what I said in my last post. You know, the part you conveniently ignored.

If we wanted an easy brainless spec, why in the everloving fuck would we be asking for a spec with multidotting?

This is my opinion and I'm allowed to have that. You getting personal because you don't agree is just pathetic and embarrassing.

You're allowed to have it, and we are similarly allowed to have our own opinion which is that your opinion is rubbish. What's really pathetic and embarrassing here is your pigheaded approach to these arguments where you ignore any and all counter points and just repeat the same one-liners ad nauseam.

[Kaver]

Since you opted for a low-effort effective copy-paste of crap you've already said, I'll go ahead and literally copy-paste arguments right back at you. You are not worth the effort for a whole new post on my part when I know you'll just repeatedly come back with the same bad arguments over and over again.

The only new argument you actually brought up is how we apparently want trivial multidotting via multi-shot. That's nonsense because a) that doesn't apply to spread targets, which is a big deal, and b) it doesn't apply to Black Arrow multidotting. So add this to the pile of crap arguments you keep dumping on the forum.

Now, without further delay, here's my prior post. Hopefully some of it will sink in this time.

We have now reached the point where you can't argue for your case anymore so you gone to personal attacks instead. I love it

Well. I will not stoop so Low. I will still base my arguments on facts and opinions. BM and the Survival mentioned here have the same boring lack-luster fundament based on:

- A rotation based on no mechanics. Just use whatever ability is ready based on a priority list and make a weakaura for barbed shot.
- Instant attacks / no cast time
- Unlimited mobility

Using one dot that requires no mechanic to build is not challenging what so ever and you probably still want the dot to be refreshed by multi-shot in AOE situations. Functioning like the plague dot of unholy DK that can be applied with one button. But you probably want it to be more powerful so you can be on the top of the damage meters by the press of one button. All the abilities you propose are based no mechanics which add no challenge. A boring spec which is way to easy to play. High performance with no effort.

I don't understand this mentality. It's like playing a game with cheat codes.

It so sad to see people put: easy over-powered gameplay = fun.

In my opinion: Challenging and engaging gameplay = fun.

But BM hunters just don't seem to like a challenge and want more specs which add no challenge. Sad I think.

[Ealyssa]

So basically mm+bm mix. Not a fan. Current survival is perfect, good thing ranged surv was scrapped.

I know it's fun to create fan fiction so I can see where you are coming from, but survival will never be ranged again. Its time to move on.

This is actual truth about SV

[F Rm]

While Rapid Fire can hit extremely hard when timed right with double tap, as an MM hunter i much prefer seeing one giant number come up on my screen, which gives me more the feeling of a sniper getting a headshot, which is what the spec is all about to me. This is obviously my personal opinion, but i do think there's many people who agree with me.

In total(as in when the full channel has occurred), you will have caused some decent damage to an enemy yes. And especially with Double Tap. Tho this is a talent adding on additional effects to baseline abilities.

Anyway, I do agree with you that Rapid Fire(MM ability) does not really fit the theme. Nor do I actually think that either of Rapid Fire/Barrage should be in the game. If you look at the type of weapons that we have in-game. How would it possibly be motivated to have abilities such as these?
This is a fantasy game sure, but really... We're using bows, Xbows and various types of front-loaders(guns) and more. How would it even be possible to fire that many rounds within the span of a few seconds?

Yeah...we have our opinions!

SV, on the otherhand, to me has always been about outsmarting your opponent. You are not a sniper who can simply murder whatever crosses your path before it reaches you, but rather, a tracker/ranger in the woods. A predator who has to know how and when to kill his prey. This is why I believe SV should have the much burstier windows.

Again, we prefer things different and imagine things different.
To me, I've always imagined a hunter who has access to strong-hitting instant damage abilities, and has some degree of movement restrictions due to these stronger attacks. That should be the spec more focused on burst damage/smaller windows.

A hunter spec who has access to certain poisons/toxins as well as explosives, but is capable of moving around a lot, I believe a downside with being capable of moving around a lot should be that you can't just pop a CD or put higher priority on a few specific abilities and then murder someone within a few seconds. I believe a spec with this gameplay should require proper pre-planning and build-up.

Having said this, I do believe there are certain abilities/effects + the Rapid Fire CD with my design that would allow for a bit of burst despite it not being on the level of instant damage-based specs like BM/MM.

After reading your reply, I am changing my mind a little on your pet talents. For reasons stated above, giving SV hunters the ability to strengthen their pet play adds a strong tool in the way of your pet, and SV hunters should be versatile.

Agreed
Not at the level of BM ofc. But still, as others have stated, Survival should also be about...survivability(hrmm…). And When it comes to solo gameplay/open world content, some degree of increased pet utility and capability to manage it should be on the table for you.

However, I still do not agree with traps being a core part of the rotation, but rather talented, which you mostly provided except for immolation trap being baseline. Simply having to aim a trap as a core part of rotation does not sound fun to me. I do not like gimmicky abilities, the until recent explosive shot was a gimmicky ability that everyone hated.

While some crossover cases exists in terms of certain abilities being available to multiple specs(A Murder of Crows anyone?), I wanted to stay away from adding something like Wildfire Bomb to the ranged spec due to how it's designed. Currently it's a cone-based ability and those are much easier to handle if you fight primarily in melee-range of your enemies.
Besides, Wildfire Bomb does have some AoE elements to it baseline. Something I did not want an ability of this type for ranged Survival to have. I wanted, in this case, Immolation Trap to be intended for Single Target use in it's basic design and once it has been triggered, the affected target that is burning(if you're good enough at making the fire trap, via the extra talent Wildfire) then the fire could spread to nearby enemies.

The irony is, considering the name of Wildfire Bomb and what Wildfire essentially means, the actual ability that melee-survival has does not really live up to it's name.

Also, as far as ease of placement/use in combat goes, if you don't like multiple steps before using an ability(like traps), you could always build it into a macro using a cursor placement setup.
Like this:
#showtooltip Immolation Trap
/cast [@cursor]Immolation Trap

With this it would be enough to place your cursor at the feet of your target and press the ability. No additional clicking needed. It wouldn't be much more complicated than using any zone-based AoE ability currently in the game. Just that this would by default be a ST spell.
This is just my viewpoint. I'm sure there are those that wouldn't agree.

For me it does make sense for Survival to have Lone Wolf. Ranged SV also had an archetype that is independent of the pet just like MM. That's why Lone Wolf was an option in WoD.

It could make sense yes, although these things are opinion based ofc. To me, the essence of what it meant to be Survival also meant that you could be aided by a pet(loyal companion) for the sake of survivability. This to me, sounds more believable.

I'm not saying that this ranged Survival should be the BM 2.0(or w/e we are in the development stages depending on who you ask).
But again, I get why you wouldn't want to have a playstyle that very much involves interacting with a pet. Which is also the reason for why anything within this spec that does involve pet interaction, comes from optional talents. It's not forced on you baseline.

When you declare that all BM hunters are playing it because they want an easy spec you're just making an ignorant blanket assumption that has no basis in reality, especially since BM Hunters since Legion specifically asked for the spec to be more involved, active, and complex and that wish was granted in BFA.

People choose to play certain specs for all kinds of reasons. A spec being somewhat easier than others to get started with is just one reason.

I have played BM from Legion up to the current stage we're in, in BfA. I play as BM because I very much like to interact with/play with pets. MM has nothing really to do with pets and therefore I do not play as it. Current Survival is a spec focused on the use of melee-weapons and several close quarter abilities. I'm not a fan of melee-combat. Therefore I choose to not play as it. Sure, it has several abilities that can be used from afar, but it's still intended to be the melee-option.

And I hate to break it to anyone but...there aint really any dmg based classes/specs in the game that could be considered hard. Unless you're new to the game, then most stuff might feel somewhat difficult.

The only real difference from Legion is Barbed shot and that can be handled by the use of one brain cell.

I'd like to see anyone with just one brain cell even existing. Yet alone try to perform any kinds of actions.

And as far as any arguments stating that full mobility equals no skill while having movement restrictions does equal skill requirements in order to deal with.
Sorry no but it doesn't.
What it requires is pre-planning. Much like any type of fights in the game does.

And as far as forced casting vs. instant casts goes. We already have 5 ranged damage dealing specs in the game who are based on casting spells. Or 5.5 even. As MM has Aimed Shot that requires casting and is a big part of the specs playstyle.

Meanwhile, we only have 1 ranged damage spec that has only instant casts(is not limited by movement). That is BM.
So what's the logic for adding in casting to any new ranged damage spec again?

The combination of a brainless rotation + ranged attacks + no cast time + unlimited mobility is just not engaging or fun. It's clearly made for people who want to focus as little as possible on class/spec machanics. It's meant for people who cannot multitask and manage a rotation while not standing in fire.

Again, specs are made the way they are in order to appeal to what type of playstyle/fantasy players prefer. If classes were made with the base of handling mechanics alone, then every single class in the game would have the exact same abilities dealing the exact same amount of damage. The only differences would be that some would not be able to use them while moving or while facing away from an enemy or use them from far away.

But this isn't really the case is it?

I was mentioning Vanilla to say that there are no Classic Warcraft fantasy that justifies the kind of Survival spec that you and others wants. So you can't use class fantasy as an argument..

Yes we can. Especially now as Classic is coming out this year so any arguments for why we should get the Vanilla style over...well, what we and others want..if you want the Vanilla style, it will be here soon anyway.
Besides, by todays standards, the various specs we had in Vanilla. They weren't exactly hard either.

If you think BM has CD management you should try other specs in the game.

Enlighten me/us. What spec in the game do you consider to have particularly difficult CD managing requirements in order to play well?

Does the CD management of BM equal brain surgery? Not really.
Does the CD management of any spec equal that?

My point is, we're not asking for the return of range Survival because we want an easy-to-play spec. Because all damage based specs are in fact fairly easy to handle.
We're asking for this spec to return because it had an intriguing playstyle of managing DoTs and a combat fantasy that no longer exists for the hunter class.



Simple questions - simple answers(below):

- Simple rotation that is more like a priority list than a rotation

This is pretty much the case for all damage based specs.

- High front-load burst for both single target, cleave and AOE.

Both in the case of single-target as well as cleave and AoE. This spec would require building up DoTs. That by definition takes away certain elements of high burst potential.

As far as how good it would be at either type. No one can say yet because we have no real numbers attached to these suggested abilities. We have no idea how much damage they would actually do.

- High sustained damage with dots and pets auto attacking

It would have high sustained damage capabilities yes, as it should due to it's intended style of gameplay.

Pet auto attacks for this spec would equal...basically only a few % of your total damage. Nothing much to speak of really.

- 1-2 button AOE (multishot applying beast cleave and/or dots)

In order to fully AoE with this spec. You have the following options:

Multi-Shot - apply Serpent Sting
Tar Trap - use Immolation Trap on a target within the tar.

As well as multi-DoT'ing(Explosive Shot, Black Arrow) but that requires another 2 buttons + the above ones.

You do have the ability during Rapid Fire to spread Black Arrow DoTs to enemies that are close to your primary target. Though the spread effect does not and should not have a long range.

Talent based AoE:
Dire Frenzy and/or Alpha Predator along with Ferocious Inspiration talent. Optional ofc. But one additional way to do it.

or...

Wildfire talent - which is a bit easier to do than the Dire Frenzy route. But in order for it to work, enemies have to be very stacked up. Or it won't be very useful. If they are, this would be a useful option.

or...

Ever Burning talent - easiest option of the three, but still requires some thought as the explosion from Explosive Shot wouldn't have a huge splash effect. But a fairly small one. Smaller than Beast Cleave has for BM.

- Multi dot'ing which can be applied and refreshed without switching targets

Mostly, only during Rapid Fire. Or to a degree if you choose certain talents.

- Unlimited mobility

Yep, the opposite of most ranged specs currently in the game.

- Cast time while moving or no cast time at all

Same as the above.

- Immunity

This is a class based thing. Not spec specific for hunters. So why shouldn't a new hunter spec have this?

- Battleress or Hero

Have you looked at hunters in BfA?
No more battle res for us.

And as far as Hero goes, everyone can bring Heroism/BL now as we have Drums.
Besides, this for hunters is a class based thing. Not Spec based. So again, why shouldn't a new hunter spec have this?


Edit:

This is actual truth about SV

Truth implies facts. Which this is not. It's one persons opinion.
Is the current melee-survival liked by many hunters? Yes it is. However…

That would only be an argument if I was asking for the removal of melee-survival in favor of my ranged option.
Again, which I am not.

[Bepples]

We have now reached the point where you can't argue for your case anymore so you gone to personal attacks instead. I love it

Just about every single post you make on this forum goes along the lines of "all BM Hunters are dumb dumbs who want nothing but an I-WIN button spec with no mechanics". Pot calling the kettle black.

Well. I will not stoop so Low. I will still base my arguments on facts and opinions.

No, you don't. You start with the conclusion that all Hunters are dumb and you make blanket, ignorant statements to support that while outright ignoring and dismissing everything pointed out to the contrary. I've argued with some real brick walls before but you are on a whole new level, so I guess you at least have that to be proud of.

- A rotation based on no mechanics. Just use whatever ability is ready based on a priority list and make a weakaura for barbed shot.

Being able to get a weakaura to make a mechanic easier does not mean that mechanic is a non-factor. If you are going to take that standard you can apply it to literally every single DPS spec in the game, with all their procs, buffs, and debuffs. Hell, every spec in the game just "uses whatever ability is ready based on a priority list". INCLUDING CURRENT SURVIVAL. What a useless description.

This argument also doesn't work because, as has been repeated a billion times already, people specifically sought out more mechanical complexity with BM. Also, the suggestion made in the OP and in my post are very mechanically rich compared to the average spec. They have varied toolkits with multiple inter-dependent abilities that requires debuff management to master. We are specifically asking for this sort of spec because we want more challenge. We look to classes like Shadow Priest and Balance Druid and say "something like that would be great for Hunters". So it's a little fucking ridiculous when you keep pretending that we are all running away from challenge. Can you actually explain why you think the suggestions are simplistic beyond "it's ranged"? They are more complex than current SV, for crying out loud.

- Instant attacks / no cast time
- Unlimited mobility

This does not automatically mean a spec is void of all complexity. Yes, it means movement management is not a factor. As a result, you're put on mechanics duty more often. Furthermore, it can make up for that with more complex baseline mechanics - again, something Hunters are specifically asking for, including the OP and I in this very thread. The Bard class of FFXIV is also a fully mobile class with nothing but instant casts. It is also famously one of the more complex classes of that game.

The reason we have specs that are fully mobile is because it's an interesting niche. Do you seriously think every single ranged spec in this game needs to be a standstill turret? You're advocating for ridiculous homogenisation of ranged classes.

Using one dot that requires no mechanic to build is not challenging what so ever and you probably still want the dot to be refreshed by multi-shot in AOE situations. Functioning like the plague dot of unholy DK that can be applied with one button. But you probably want it to be more powerful so you can be on the top of the damage meters by the press of one button. All the abilities you propose are based no mechanics which add no challenge. A boring spec which is way to easy to play. High performance with no effort.

Holy shit, dude. Let me copy paste it about 10 times so you won't skip it this time.

Black Arrow

Black Arrow

Black Arrow

Black Arrow

Black Arrow

Black Arrow

Black Arrow

Black Arrow

Black Arrow

Black Arrow

That's all I am going to say for now until you acknowledge that was a part of our posts.

Every single time you come here and pretend we only up 1 auto-DoT in our suggestion, expect to see that list until you acknowledge it.

In my opinion: Challenging and engaging gameplay = fun.

Cool story. That's our opinion, too. You're just pretending that's not the case.

But BM hunters just don't seem to like a challenge and want more specs which add no challenge. Sad I think.

It's worth repeating that this thread wasn't even about Beast Mastery yet you are again trying your hardest to derail it to that. That's what's really sad, here.

- - - Updated - - -

This is actual truth about SV

Current SV is so perfect next to no one plays it.

T R U T H

[Niroshi]

They wouldn't even really need a 4th spec to give back ranged Survival, because the toolkit is so similar to Marksman they could bake it into talents. MM's Arcane Shot proc is already pretty close to how we used to play SV as it is, and Explosive Shot could be a solid replace talent for Aimed. Black Arrow could replace Rapid Fire even, assuming they aren't holding that for Dark Ranger.

[threads]

just enjoying the fact people are still talking about pre-legion SV. blizz killed a truly great spec.

[Skildar]

The whole fan fiction is what created melee spec in the first place.
A small, but loud, minority wishing for a 'vanilla melee spec' that never really existed.

The current Survival melee spec is fun in a vacuum, but in the grander picture it doesn't really fit well. It lacks some depth compared to some of the other melee specs and also lacks some utility. It feels a bit like a retri paladin without the utility of a retri.

I think with some optimization melee Survival could be both fun and good. Some added quality of life and added utility to make it feel more in it's own place as a melee spec.
Currently it's not there though; no matter how much many people really like survival, it's down bottom in the popularity rankings on a class that's near the top of the popularity rankings.

ok so you've never touched survival hunter in its current state because it has all of those.

[Ghost10491]

This thread is getting off topic from the main point and has reached the point of insulting each other for wanting something in a game. Two main points I'd take from this thread though.
1. There are plenty of people who miss ranged SV. Though we may differ slightly in opinion how that spec should run, it is true, as said above, blizzard killed a truly great spec. Most of us aren't even saying to ixnay melee for it, just bring it back.
2. More complex rotations generally result in more fun. This, as mentioned above, is what we all want. Complex and mobility are different things. MM's difficulty comes in the form of hardcasting, not complexity. Though there really aren't too many ranged dps specs in the game i would even consider that complex, so I'm not sure where the argument that hunters are too easy anyway. Besides, blizzard has even said hunters should be one of the most mobile classes in the game. Again, that doesn't have to mean easiest. I'm sorry if the OP, or FpicEail, or myself can't come up with the perfect spec to fit what we all want. We aren't paid game designers. But these ideas are a great start to give us a spec back that A LOT of hunters want.

Those arguing against ranged SV. You're in the minority. Check the front page of any hunter forum and you will still, after 3 years, find multiple threads arguing for the return of ranged SV. If it's something you don't want, or don't care about, good for you. Stay off the threads. It's a game. If there are people that enjoy a spec more than you, who cares. If you think it's too similar to another spec, or to easy, or whatever, who cares. It doesn't hurt you for me to play a spec I enjoy, no matter how dumb you think that spec is.

[Kaver]

Just about every single post you make on this forum goes along the lines of "all BM Hunters are dumb dumbs who want nothing but an I-WIN button spec with no mechanics". Pot calling the kettle black.



No, you don't. You start with the conclusion that all Hunters are dumb and you make blanket, ignorant statements to support that while outright ignoring and dismissing everything pointed out to the contrary. I've argued with some real brick walls before but you are on a whole new level, so I guess you at least have that to be proud of.



Being able to get a weakaura to make a mechanic easier does not mean that mechanic is a non-factor. If you are going to take that standard you can apply it to literally every single DPS spec in the game, with all their procs, buffs, and debuffs. Hell, every spec in the game just "uses whatever ability is ready based on a priority list". INCLUDING CURRENT SURVIVAL. What a useless description.

This argument also doesn't work because, as has been repeated a billion times already, people specifically sought out more mechanical complexity with BM. Also, the suggestion made in the OP and in my post are very mechanically rich compared to the average spec. They have varied toolkits with multiple inter-dependent abilities that requires debuff management to master. We are specifically asking for this sort of spec because we want more challenge. We look to classes like Shadow Priest and Balance Druid and say "something like that would be great for Hunters". So it's a little fucking ridiculous when you keep pretending that we are all running away from challenge. Can you actually explain why you think the suggestions are simplistic beyond "it's ranged"? They are more complex than current SV, for crying out loud.



This does not automatically mean a spec is void of all complexity. Yes, it means movement management is not a factor. As a result, you're put on mechanics duty more often. Furthermore, it can make up for that with more complex baseline mechanics - again, something Hunters are specifically asking for, including the OP and I in this very thread. The Bard class of FFXIV is also a fully mobile class with nothing but instant casts. It is also famously one of the more complex classes of that game.

The reason we have specs that are fully mobile is because it's an interesting niche. Do you seriously think every single ranged spec in this game needs to be a standstill turret? You're advocating for ridiculous homogenisation of ranged classes.



Holy shit, dude. Let me copy paste it about 10 times so you won't skip it this time.

Black Arrow

Black Arrow

Black Arrow

Black Arrow

Black Arrow

Black Arrow

Black Arrow

Black Arrow

Black Arrow

Black Arrow

That's all I am going to say for now until you acknowledge that was a part of our posts.

Every single time you come here and pretend we only up 1 auto-DoT in our suggestion, expect to see that list until you acknowledge it.



Cool story. That's our opinion, too. You're just pretending that's not the case.



It's worth repeating that this thread wasn't even about Beast Mastery yet you are again trying your hardest to derail it to that. That's what's really sad, here.

BM hunter is a ridiculous easy spec to play. It's not engaging at all and Blizzard should add some actual mechanics to it.

Unlimited movement and no cast time should be compensated by some other challenging mechanics but with BM it is not. It the total package that makes BM a joke:

- Simple rotation which essentially is a priority list where you mostly just press the abilities off CD.
- Simple AOE rotation.
- No cast time abilities
- Unlimited movement
- No ressource management

The combination of all those thing is what makes BM a boring spec. There is not one challenging element. Mobility and Instant casts are just some of the factors. Other spec also have easy elements to them, but then they have some restrictions to compensate. BM has not restriction and no elements of difficulty.

The reason I keep bringing up BM is because they way Survival are described in this thread is like another boring spec with no elements of difficulty. I'm not sure why you keep mentioning Black arrow. It a boring ability you press every 30 second. If that is your idea of engaging gameplay then it's uphill from here.

The dot-system which is described in this thread is just boring and lacks complexity:

Serpent Sting - Instant cast, deals periodic damage. No CD with a fairly low Focus cost.
Black Arrow - Like it was prior to Legion. Instant cast. 30 sec CD. Deals periodic damage.
Serpent Spread - Targets hit by Multi-Shot are also afflicted by Serpent Sting equal to 7 sec of it’s duration.

How are those abilities engaging. It is so embarrassing to propose a spec that works like this. You just want all the best things of each class without putting any effort into it. You want to be able to multi-dot without switching targets. Black arrow is a 30 sec CD so essentially you would switch target every 30 second assuming the debuff lasted longer than 30 sec.

And again, the reason why I bring up BM is because you already have a boring brainless ranged spec. Why create another with Survival. Why do you insist on having multiple specs that can be played with no effort. It's so boring.