“Tell your King,he is not alone" What this means?

[Verdugo]

Sometimes, you have to let go and enjoy the show.

And most of the time, you should stop defending corporate trash and especialy stop treating them as friends.

[Specialka]

They are not my friends, I am a customer.

But as a customer, I am not entitled like most. I know what they can do and what they can't.

In story, when you start to powercreep, you will lose a lot of "reality". Why Jaina did not port everyone next to Gul'dan, gank him and port back to SW? Job done!
Or why did Sylvanas did not spam her banshee abilities? Etc...

So they do the story they want, and we have to follow, deal with it.

[PenguinChan]

"Character that barely appears in story is a tumor!!!"

Says Alliance fan while ignoring Anduin, Jaina and Baine.

Legion, Before the Storm, Pre-patch, and BfA existed before 8.2 so therefore everything leading up to this moment doesn't matter and she isn't relevant.

That sounds way dumber when you actually spell it out. We both know she is a bad character, we both know they are handling the story like shit - from both sides​ - attacking others with passive aggressive remarks is about as childish as it gets. Stop that shit.

Sylvanas is a complete non-entity in the story. She has next to no screentime and appears only to advance the arcs of other characters, chiefly Saurfang and Jaina. They didn't put themselves in this situation because they're married to keeping Sylvanas in character and this obligated them to do this, she only became Warchief because they wanted to do Mists 2.0: Zombie Edition which unifies the factions in story and wrote their way back from there, with Sylvanas being the blunt instrument meant to get us there.

If they were married to doing Sylvanas and others in character, she would either never have been Warchief in the first place, she would've kept low key like she did during the previous war or the people we're told are heroic rebels who know all there is to know about honor would rise up after the Horde torches a city full of people, whereas the Alliance would not just let another huge crime slide. There are tons of options. But that's not the purpose of this exercise and wouldn't get us to the Unifaction, so none of this happens.

Yeah, she is malformed from her old self and turned into something she isn't. This has been going on post-WotLK. Saying she doesn't exist, like I said above though is ignoring it entirely. Just because a character is a plot device doesn't exclude them from being terrible. Garrosh was interesting up until they decided to do the same thing with him, as they are doing now with Sylvanas. Throw out everything that makes them interesting and use them to push the story forward. Disgusting.

[Super Dickmann]

Legion, Before the Storm, Pre-patch, and BfA existed before 8.2 so therefore everything leading up to this moment doesn't matter and she isn't relevant.

She appears in one zone of Legion, less chapters in BTS than the gnome-goblin love story and solely to be a villain to show Anduin is the one who truly understands the Forsaken and deserves to choose their racial leader. Only in A Good War does she have a meaningful role that actually informs her character. In BFA itself she has appeared only twice with a meaningful purpose - once to twirl her mustache at you and resurrect Derek and second to twirl her mustache at you and kill Zelling.

She has no arc of her own. She does the things she does so that Saurfang can feel sad, Baine has something to rebel over, Thrall has a reason to come back and the Horde and Alliance can unite. She's only slightly better off than the night elves, who die to make Saurfang sad.

Yeah, she is malformed from her old self and turned into something she isn't. This has been going on post-WotLK. Saying she doesn't exist, like I said above though is ignoring it entirely. Just because a character is a plot device doesn't exclude them from being terrible. Garrosh was interesting up until they decided to do the same thing with him, as they are doing now with Sylvanas. Throw out everything that makes them interesting and use them to push the story forward. Disgusting.

Garrosh got off light compared to Sylvanas because the story was written so terribly that he was still basically correct short of nonsense like how he was suddenly tolerant of zombies and warlocks for one patch just to show how evil he is and the pure absurdity that was keeping Theramore survivors in his bunker for a year in preparation for a siege that he had no plan to make happen. The process was the same, it just failed. With Sylvanas it's basically successful. She has successfuly had her character assassinated, it's just that the story's taken everyone else down with her.

The issue isn't with Cata. Alliance could've taken back Gilneas and fought Sylvanas without having the entire Forsaken society retconned to beef up Anduin's entourage. Ditto, Sylvanas could've been kept with her Cata personality and not trigger a world war because that wasn't her aim. She was against attacking Theramore for a reason and she stayed out of the Cata war as well, because she'd secured the buffer zones she needed and trusted Varian. She was evil as fuck, even more so since she was raising people, but she wasn't motivated solely by what's the most petty, evil and stupid in the current context. She is not the one dragging the story down, the end goal of nonsensical peace is because without it there would be no necessity to write her this way or to make her Warchief in the first place.

I agree that she has to go in so far as she's too far gone into meme territory to salvage. But I'd extend that to huge swathes of the cast including her starring opposition in both the Red and Blue Alliance.

[Verdugo]

Legion, Before the Storm, Pre-patch, and BfA existed before 8.2 so therefore everything leading up to this moment doesn't matter and she isn't relevant.

Legion, where she appears only at the start.
Before the Storm, book that was 90% about Anduin. 7,5% about disgusting interspecies romance between midgets.
Pre-patch, that only exists as "you should hate this character" stage of "character building" that Blizzard hacks use.
BfA, where she has fuckall of an appearance.


Meanwhile, Jaina has how many cinematics this expansion alone?

[PenguinChan]

~ Snip ~

In short, Sylvanas is a terrible character post WotLK - including Cataclysm, but not as bad as it is now. You pointed most of it out. Garrosh was a lot better than Sylvanas if we compare their 'evil reign' periods, but that doesn't make him any less garbage. He just got dealt with in a more timely manner, a bit more logical too. Sylvanas, meanwhile...

Yeah, we all know how the story is.

And yeah, I know the book was about Anduin - but it was also about the Forsaken. You know, the little thing she leads and is intrinsically tied to? Unfortunately severed when she, as the book went on, turned it all into a sub-plot device for her own plot devices, and the ending - while meaningful, was just again, a way to drive the plot device that is herself forward. At least the book gave more development for Anduin, and funny, yes, the goblin and gnome love story was more interesting than Sylvanas herself.

That said the book itself was handled amazingly better than what we got in the pre-patch and BfA. While still not good, I'd vastly prefer that type of development over the hot garbage that we get now. Unfortunately it seems WoW is incapable of doing story without immediately turning it into an end with no continuity besides the favorite main characters.

Legion, where she appears only at the start.
Before the Storm, book that was 90% about Anduin. 7,5% about disgusting interspecies romance between midgets.
Pre-patch, that only exists as "you should hate this character" stage of "character building" that Blizzard hacks use.
BfA, where she has fuckall of an appearance.


Meanwhile, Jaina has how many cinematics this expansion alone?

See above. Jaina isn't exempt from being criticized either, she was way horrible in the past. Now, not so much - but nowhere near as bad as Sylvanas. That said, any character can be turned into that as Blizzard has shown.

[Verdugo]

See above. Jaina isn't exempt from being criticized either, she was way horrible in the past. Now, not so much - but nowhere near as bad as Sylvanas. That said, any character can be turned into that as Blizzard has shown.

Nah, if Sylvanas is so bad she to go, so does 50% of the current cast.

[Mehrunes]

They are not my friends, I am a customer.

But as a customer, I am not entitled like most. I know what they can do and what they can't.

Simply knowing that they can't write for shit is no reason to excuse that. Corporations should be held to some standards, not coddled with "I know you can't meet any standards, but I'll defend the shit out of you even though you're not my friend, because I don't want to be seen as entitled".

In story, when you start to powercreep, you will lose a lot of "reality". Why Jaina did not port everyone next to Gul'dan, gank him and port back to SW? Job done!
Or why did Sylvanas did not spam her banshee abilities? Etc...

Because killing Gul'dan wouldn't magically close the portal and even if Sylvanas used her abilities, the Horde ultimately retreated because Legion's freshly-arrived spaceships blasted its position to hell.

[PenguinChan]

Nah, if Sylvanas is so bad she to go, so does 50% of the current cast.

Changing them, sure, but offing them like Sylvanas? Ehhh, that's kind of stupid. That said I wouldn't be against them benching characters for awhile, and reintroducing or changing them for the better.

You can't better Sylvanas, they tried that shit with Kerrigan and it was fucking stupid as all hell. And they are seemingly going a similar path, but not as 'goodie two-shoes' as hers was.

[Mehrunes]

Legion, Before the Storm, Pre-patch, and BfA existed before 8.2 so therefore everything leading up to this moment doesn't matter and she isn't relevant.

That sounds way dumber when you actually spell it out. We both know she is a bad character, we both know they are handling the story like shit - from both sides​ - attacking others with passive aggressive remarks is about as childish as it gets. Stop that shit.

Except she appears in Legion even less. Not exactly a good example. Her story in Before the Storm is literally the shortest on in the book. Genn gets more screentime than her. And when @Verdugo was talking about how she barely appears in the story, I'm pretty sure they meant all of BfA. She appears maybe on ten occasions and even then half of them are basically cameos.

[Super Dickmann]

In short, Sylvanas is a terrible character post WotLK - including Cataclysm, but not as bad as it is now. You pointed most of it out. Garrosh was a lot better than Sylvanas if we compare their 'evil reign' periods, but that doesn't make him any less garbage. He just got dealt with in a more timely manner, a bit more logical too. Sylvanas, meanwhile...

Yeah, we all know how the story is.

And yeah, I know the book was about Anduin - but it was also about the Forsaken. You know, the little thing she leads and is intrinsically tied to? Unfortunately severed when she, as the book went on, turned it all into a sub-plot device for her own plot devices, and the ending - while meaningful, was just again, a way to drive the plot device that is herself forward. At least the book gave more development for Anduin, and funny, yes, the goblin and gnome love story was more interesting than Sylvanas herself.

That said the book itself was handled amazingly better than what we got in the pre-patch and BfA. While still not good, I'd vastly prefer that type of development over the hot garbage that we get now. Unfortunately it seems WoW is incapable of doing story without immediately turning it into an end with no continuity besides the favorite main characters.

The book was a slow motion demolition of the entirety of Forsaken lore up to that point in service not of Sylvanas, but of Anduin, to demonstrate how Anduin's qualities better exemplify them than all of their in-game content up to that point. Anduin did not develop. Anduin has always been a completely static character. Proactive, yes, but devoid of any negative characteristics whatsoever and around whom every other character bends to. In the book, that was the Forsaken, the entirety of the more jingoistic Alliance cast who immediately drop any issues they have with the Forsaken after a few moments with Anduin and Sylvanas, who becomes a cartoon in order to benefit Anduin.

And as for issues, post-Cata Sylvanas is fine and Garrosh was the best thing to happen to the Horde. Taken from us too soon.

[Verdugo]

Changing them, sure, but offing them like Sylvanas? Ehhh, that's kind of stupid. That said I wouldn't be against them benching characters for awhile, and reintroducing or changing them for the better.

You can't better Sylvanas, they tried that shit with Kerrigan and it was fucking stupid as all hell. And they are seemingly going a similar path, but not as 'goodie two-shoes' as hers was.

You cant better Anduin, Jaina or Baine either and yet here you are defending them.

[Mehrunes]

And yeah, I know the book was about Anduin - but it was also about the Forsaken. You know, the little thing she leads and is intrinsically tied to?

Since Sylvanas isn't the overmind of the Forsaken, no.

That said the book itself was handled amazingly better than what we got in the pre-patch and BfA. While still not good, I'd vastly prefer that type of development over the hot garbage that we get now. Unfortunately it seems WoW is incapable of doing story without immediately turning it into an end with no continuity besides the favorite main characters.

I'm sorry, what? Like you said, the book revolves about Forsaken (and how Blanduin is the only one that truly understands them). Yet this "amazingly better" handled piece of story couldn't even get something as basic to the Forsaken as "which undead are actually the Forsaken" right and treats Faol as a Forsaken, despite the fact it outright states he refused to follow Sylvanas. Even though the very first post-Cata Forsaken quest makes it clear as day that to become a Forsaken one has to explicitly join them (which means following Sylvanas) and that those risen can refuse and go their own path instead.

You cant better Anduin, Jaina or Baine either and yet here you are defending them.

Well, you can't better perfection...

[PenguinChan]

Since Sylvanas isn't the overmind of the Forsaken, no.

Yeah but you can't mention Sylvanas or Forsaken without many people mentioning the two.

How many times has anyone here mentioned humans, when talking about Anduin? How many people talk about Worgens, and not just Greymane? That's my point, and it happens countless times. They are interlinked because she is linked with them, she mentions it incessantly through the book and the past lore. It's something that is part of their lore and their history, it's so founded in her character. Which is also why she basically uses them as a means to an end is such a fucking slap in the face to whatever happened before the book.

I'm sorry, what? Like you said, the book revolves about Forsaken (and how Blanduin is the only one that truly understands them). Yet this "amazingly better" handled piece of story couldn't even get something as basic to the Forsaken as "which undead are actually the Forsaken" right and treats Faol as a Forsaken, despite the fact it outright states he refused to follow Sylvanas. Even though the very first post-Cata Forsaken quest makes it clear as day that to become a Forsaken one has to explicitly join them (which means following Sylvanas) and that those risen can refuse and go their own path instead.

Faol understands them. Calia understands them. Greymane ends up understanding them through Anduin, and it's clear as fucking day when the priesthood with Faol understands Forsaken aren't all the same. Or when the humans are meeting with their family... Yeah, the entire book plays on that, but ignore it if you want. What are you on about? It's been in the lore since Cataclysm, but Blizzard has clearly made it that Sylvanas doesn't like that, in the book itself and afterwards.

[valax]

Agreed. Baine and Saurfang had a chance to challenge Sylvanas after Teldrassil,yet they didn't do it. Baine could challenge her after Lordaeron,yet he didn't do it. And so,you truly have 2 options - either challenge the current warchief or do as he/she commands.

They never had a chance , because blizzard planned the return of Thrall and because (using their own words) the horde didn't learn from MoP ...they are not traitors they just got written that way (shame)

[Verdugo]

Greymane ends up understanding them through Anduin

Ahahahahahahahaa


Are you seriously a fan of that bookbound toilet paper?

[Super Dickmann]

Faol understands them. Calia understands them. Greymane ends up understanding them through Anduin, and it's clear as fucking day when the priesthood with Faol understands Forsaken aren't all the same. Or when the humans are meeting with their family... Yeah, the entire book plays on that, but ignore it if you want. What are you on about? It's been in the lore since Cataclysm, but Blizzard has clearly made it that Sylvanas doesn't like that, in the book itself and afterwards.

Yes, because the book retcons them completely. Every aspect of their characterization in the book isn't just a new addition, it's in outright contradiction to key plot points from before.

Before: A Forsaken is a political status, either those initially freed from Arthas, voluntarily joined or was raised by a Val'kyr and chose to stay. Other options are to die or you can just leave, even if you're someone important like an Apothecary or a high-ranking Deathstalker like in the kid's book Sylvanas will allow it.
After: A Forsaken is anyone who is a free-willed undead, no matter their allegiance.

Before: The entire Cata conquest narrative is based around the Forsaken reclaiming their identity as the current people of Lordaeron who still have the claims they did as living people. Sylvanas is openly doing speeches about this.
After: All mention of Lordaeron is haram and always has been. Sylvanas has always prohibited it.

Before: Forsaken were free to do whatever, including collect whatever books they liked and live in the upper city as people of Lordaeron, as you can still see in game if you talk to the bronze dragon.
After: Forsaken live in a hitherto unmentioned police state where all mention of Lordaeron, living up top or their former lives is prohibited and books are burned by the secret police.

Before: Forsaken were, due to the misalignment of their souls and bodies, at a loss for some of their positive emotions, with their negative ones. They are supernaturally tough to the point where Garrosh based his strategy around that toughness and having their jaws shot off doesn't even worry them.
After: Forsaken are just sadsack humans who wish Anduin-senpai noticed them. Their hands fall off from clapping and hugs can kill them.

Before: The Forsaken were in league under Sylvanas as regards both their revenge on Arthas and their imperial goals before and after Cata respectively, both of their blurbs state this plainly and Sylvanas is the one to pander to their needs, hence her personality cult. The living hate them and they hate the living.
After: Sylvanas is the one to do everything wrong and is tricking them all. They just want to live in peace and happiness. The living are okay with them and they can all be friends provided Anduin gives them a hug.

The book is to the Forsaken lore what a crowbar is to a kneecap, except this crowbar has a heart with Anduin in the center stickered on. I'd use it as toilet paper, but luckily I only got an ebook.

[Mehrunes]

Yeah but you can't mention Sylvanas or Forsaken without many people mentioning the two.

How many times has anyone here mentioned humans, when talking about Anduin? How many people talk about Worgens, and not just Greymane? That's my point, and it happens countless times. They are interlinked because she is linked with them, she mentions it incessantly through the book and the past lore. It's something that is part of their lore and their history, it's so founded in her character. Which is also why she basically uses them as a means to an end is such a fucking slap in the face to whatever happened before the book.

Assuming you're not talking about people on the forums, because conflating presence in fans' discussions and presence in the actual story isn't even remotely an argument, a lot of the time? There are more than two hundred mentions of Forsaken in BtS alone. A lot of those have nothing to do with Sylvanas. Goblins are mentioned without mentioning Gallywix. So on and so forth.

Faol understands them. Calia understands them. Greymane ends up understanding them through Anduin, and it's clear as fucking day when the priesthood with Faol understands Forsaken aren't all the same. Or when the humans are meeting with their family... Yeah, the entire book plays on that, but ignore it if you want. What are you on about? It's been in the lore since Cataclysm, but Blizzard has clearly made it that Sylvanas doesn't like that, in the book itself and afterwards.

What are you on about (hell, the second half of your first sentence here literally makes no sense)? Faol understanding them wasn't even remotely the point of contention here. The fact that under the established lore Faol isn't actually a Forsaken but a free-agent undead instead was.

[PenguinChan]

Assuming you're not talking about people on the forums, because conflating presence in fans' discussions and presence in the actual story isn't even remotely an argument, a lot of the time? There are more than two hundred mentions of Forsaken in BtS alone. A lot of those have nothing to do with Sylvanas. Goblins are mentioned without mentioning Gallywix. So on and so forth.

Last I checked this was a discussion about both the viewer / reader and the in-lore, not just the lore itself. If we did that, you know how that'd end up - a shit show of poor handling of the story in every which way and so many plot holes.

What are you on about (hell, the second half of your first sentence here literally makes no sense)? Faol understanding them wasn't even remotely the point of contention here. The fact that under the established lore Faol isn't actually a Forsaken but a free-agent undead instead was.

He was Forsaken, and originally was a Forsaken. This isn't really a debate about that - it's established in lore that he was a mindless undead and became free under Sylvanas with all the others whom were freed. This is in lore - he may be a former Forsaken and the like, but that doesn't meant he wasn't. Unless I'm missing something in BfA that retconned that, he was originally a Forsaken. You can look it up if you want, it's in the quests and novels that explain everything - including Before the Storm. Just because he chose to be his own thing doesn't stop him from once being a Forsaken, that's stupid.

Ahahahahahahahaa


Are you seriously a fan of that bookbound toilet paper?

I'm a fan of the lore and until it gets ret-conned, I roll with it. If you don't that's fine.

~ Snip ~

Last I checked the book didn't retcon most of what you said, at all. Instead, it builds up to the fact that not all Forsaken are like that and there are ones that have actual emotions and aren't husks, or deadened. Sylvanas is built up to be overbearing and controlling as the book went on, with the eventual ending being her taking a basic iron grip on her race. I remember a few characters actually reminiscing on the things like collecting books, but because Sylvanas was becoming paranoid things like that became harder to acquire.

[Verdugo]

I'm a fan of the lore and until it gets ret-conned, I roll with it. If you don't that's fine.

So you like anything, no matter how shitty it is? Do you have a favourite character? What if they ruin them until they are not recognizable. When does your tolerance end.