Horde needs to stop trust in visions.

[Houle]

Hahaha, actually didn't think about it, but now that u mention it, "Horde characters gets misleading vision" truly is almost as played out as "corrupted by old gods over time" at this point lol.

[Tarba]

1) Ner'zhul gets tricked by kil'jaeden showing up as his dead wife.
2) Vol'jin follows the loa's words when he is bleeding out the moment before his death. (was not the loa but tricked by an unknown)
3) Spiritwalker Ussoh saw the execution of Baine Bloodhoof (got tricked since Sylvanas alrdy had forseen a escape plan and kept him alive).

So when do we of the Horde stop trusting into the spirits and visions?
The only vision that had any benefit for the Horde was Medivh that had forseen that the Orcs needed to travel toward Kalimdor in WC3.

Did we actually had a Horde member with a vision that actually gave a victory or aid to the Horde? i think these visions sofar have done more harm then good.

Orcs were saved in war3 by a vision Thrall had. That's what pushed him to cross the sea. Ending saving the world.

[sillag]

Orcs were saved in war3 by a vision Thrall had. That's what pushed him to cross the sea. Ending saving the world.

its actually very debatable if the orcs helped to save the world. most would say the orcs hindered saving the world by killing cenarius and provoking the night elves. as we see from current lore, night elves and the alliance would have made fine allies either way, so had it just been the humans and night elves they would have been fine.

the only actual contribution from the orcs against the legion was grom killing mannoroth, but its unlikely that mannoroth was actually worth all the damage the orcs did to the alliance and night elves.

[Dellis0991]

1) Ner'zhul gets tricked by kil'jaeden showing up as his dead wife.
2) Vol'jin follows the loa's words when he is bleeding out the moment before his death. (was not the loa but tricked by an unknown)
3) Spiritwalker Ussoh saw the execution of Baine Bloodhoof (got tricked since Sylvanas alrdy had forseen a escape plan and kept him alive).

So when do we of the Horde stop trusting into the spirits and visions?
The only vision that had any benefit for the Horde was Medivh that had forseen that the Orcs needed to travel toward Kalimdor in WC3.

Did we actually had a Horde member with a vision that actually gave a victory or aid to the Horde? i think these visions sofar have done more harm then good.

Vision always been a iffy with both factions Velen sat on his ass and trusted the fate of his people to visions that the light granted him while his people got chased and killed so it isn't just a horde thing and Khadgar was probably getting mind fingered by demons/Medivh and Karazhan for years (thankfully he always saw through the bullshit) and it's build into the shamanic ways of the horde.

[Zandalariprelate]

Vision always been a iffy with both factions Velen sat on his ass and trusted the fate of his people to visions that the light granted him while his people got chased and killed so it isn't just a horde thing and Khadgar was probably getting mind fingered by demons/Medivh and Karazhan for years (thankfully he always saw through the bullshit) and it's build into the shamanic ways of the horde.

The visions of warcraft works like the warhammer ones, usually there is one or two entities behind it and as you can guess, they don't have good intentions. Vol'jin got his legacy dirted, Velen make himself a joke for following like a blind fanatic, Jaina "visions" in Throst are likely gonna cost the alliance later when the horde invades Stormwind and her holding back only costed more lives. Also the visions of Anduin with his father could be a tramp that later will bite him in the ass, being killed by fel magic destroy your soul as we saw in the illidan book and Legion.

[Ielenia]

It's also what they called themselves in the distant past when they allied against the ogres. "Omg how dare a country call itself China! They committed genocide!" "But that's not us." "We don't care you call yourself that you're responsible for their sins."

You sound like those radicals who think that there shouldn't be anything in the world named after anyone who did anything questionable. "How dare they have a statue named after Robert E. Lee, he was fighting to keep slavery! Erase him from history because he was evil!"

You mean when they were given reliable proof by their own spiritual leaders that there were not one, not two, but three entire civilizations out to enslave them and unless they do something radical now IT WILL happen in the next few years?

Except those are the exact same orcs who committed all that genocide against the human kingdoms. Not different ones, but the exact same ones.

Also, Thrall is supposed to be a smart guy. There is no way he wouldn't at the very least suspect that taking on the name that evokes so many painful memories and trauma for the humans would not work so well when one is trying to lead a peaceful existence, right? Using the name "Horde" was one of Thrall's most idiotic ideas, in hindsight.

And again: on the original post of yours that I replied to, you basically absolved the orcs from all the blame from them invading Azeroth and massacring humans left and right as they ravaged the land... and yet you completely ignore the fact that the Warlords of Draenor expansion showed that those exact same orcs did not need a single drop of blood to go on the exact same murderous rampage.

[Trumpcat]

Hahaha, actually didn't think about it, but now that u mention it, "Horde characters gets misleading vision" truly is almost as played out as "corrupted by old gods over time" at this point lol.

Wait for it, I'm betting we are not done with corrupted by old gods over time yet. I anticipate some plot twist bomb with 8.3/9.0
"Her heart is a crater and we have filled it"
"The boy king serves at the master's table"
"The king of diamonds have been made a pawn"
- There must be something coming out of these.

[Hellspawn]

1) Ner'zhul gets tricked by kil'jaeden showing up as his dead wife.
2) Vol'jin follows the loa's words when he is bleeding out the moment before his death. (was not the loa but tricked by an unknown)
3) Spiritwalker Ussoh saw the execution of Baine Bloodhoof (got tricked since Sylvanas alrdy had forseen a escape plan and kept him alive).

So when do we of the Horde stop trusting into the spirits and visions?
The only vision that had any benefit for the Horde was Medivh that had forseen that the Orcs needed to travel toward Kalimdor in WC3.

Did we actually had a Horde member with a vision that actually gave a victory or aid to the Horde? i think these visions sofar have done more harm then good.

Horde, especially Orcs are easily manipulated, its part of their faction/race identity.

[Kyphael]

But being superstitious backwards ass tribal savages has always been the Horde's bread and butter, at least until Undead and Blood Elves came along, anyway.

[cparle87]

except the orcs are literally the same exact people who started like 3 wars of genocide back to back each time claiming they had turned over a new leaf and were not monsters anymore

wow orc history is basically like if ww2 ended and instead of nuremberg trials they just put all the nazis back in power as "the new reich" who were very sorry for what their forefathers (actually themselves) had done and then founded a new capital called hitlerberg. then 5 years later they invaded poland again because they were concerned that the polish "hadn't forgiven us and would probably try to attack us again so we'd better kill them all first"

Except the only chieftain from the old Horde who had any power in Thrall's was Grommash and he died very early on in the new Horde's life, so your "putting the Nazis back in power" and "actually themselves" part is completely false.

And need I remind you that Orgrim had no choice about starting the Second War. His options were start a war with the Alliance of Lordaeron or have his people turn on each other out of the bloodlust. So to use your WW2 analogy it would be like Hitler died, a new leader was appointed who had no ability to change the direction the people were taking, and then the new capitol was named after him.

Then when they lost the war the Allies threw every German citizen into concentration camps to die until they escaped. And instead of starting a fight they fled to another continent the Allies had no presence on. But the Allies weren't having none of this and chased them down to imprison them.

Your "invade Poland again" metaphor has no basis in reality at all. Because besides Sylvanas the Horde had never invaded and occupied Alliance territory. The Alliance, on the other hand, destroyed Horde cities and rebuilt over them as early as Cata.

- - - Updated - - -

Except those are the exact same orcs who committed all that genocide against the human kingdoms. Not different ones, but the exact same ones.

Also, Thrall is supposed to be a smart guy. There is no way he wouldn't at the very least suspect that taking on the name that evokes so many painful memories and trauma for the humans would not work so well when one is trying to lead a peaceful existence, right? Using the name "Horde" was one of Thrall's most idiotic ideas, in hindsight.

And again: on the original post of yours that I replied to, you basically absolved the orcs from all the blame from them invading Azeroth and massacring humans left and right as they ravaged the land... and yet you completely ignore the fact that the Warlords of Draenor expansion showed that those exact same orcs did not need a single drop of blood to go on the exact same murderous rampage.

Who were under mind control. And like Thrall we had a new generation coming up who had never hurt anyone who were locked away in the camps with their elders for their sins.

So you're saying the Horde shouldn't have named a city after one of their greatest heroes who did many great things not related to fighting the Alliance because it might hurt their fee fees? Also they can't call their organization a certain name because it might hurt their fee fees?

And you keep ignoring this...
You mean when they were given reliable proof by their own spiritual leaders that there were not one, not two, but three entire civilizations out to enslave them and unless they do something radical now IT WILL happen in the next few years?

They were fucking told by sources they believed were etched in stone that they were less than 5 years away from annihilation and slavery. There isn't a human society in existence that wouldn't react just like the orcs would if given such evidence. "There's 3 civilizations out there who want to annihilate us? We need to do EVERYTHING in our power to build up our military power as quickly as possible and launch a pre-emptive strike or all is lost."

And as soon as Grommash realized he'd been had and Gul'dan took over he quickly sided with us.

- - - Updated - - -

But being superstitious backwards ass tribal savages has always been the Horde's bread and butter, at least until Undead and Blood Elves came along, anyway.

And yet we saw members of every race in genocidal wanting to bring about the end of the world cults like the Twilight Hammer and Cult of the Damned. Hmm...

[Rozz]

Remember to avoid making the discussion socially/politically topical.

[Biomega]

But being superstitious backwards ass tribal savages

It's not superstition if there really ARE spirits and whatnot. These visions may be misinterpreted or be deliberately twisted, but they're real.

Also it's debatable how "savage" orcs are, because it's difficult to simply employ the same moral categories we're used to in human contexts for non-human actors. What exactly is so great about the human civilizations on Azeroth, for example? What have they achieved, really, other than being decent at warfare and somewhat okay at magic? Compared to elves or even trolls their civilizations are laughably unsophisticated (let alone compared to someone like the draenei). And in terms of military prowess, it took some serious interventions by some serious powers just to stop an invading force from another planet - a force that was not only outnumbered and outgunned (literally), but had been cut off from all supply lines, too.

So by what standard are the humans of Azeroth so much more civilized? Heck, orcs even have a richer and deeper cultural history - and just because they're organized around tribes instead of kingdoms doesn't mean it's worth less.

What about technology, then? Orcs have consistently been shown to be a match for human military technology - and much of that is, in fact, DWARF or GNOME technology in the first place. At the same time, some of the most sophisticated technology we've seen developed on Azeroth was in fact of Orcish and Goblin design, such as the Iron Star. Heck, it took one single escaped orc to catapult a past Draenor into technological superiority in the blink of an eye.

Or do you mean morality? Rich, coming from Azerothian humans who gave us such noble examples of moral superiority like Admiral Proudmore, concentration camps, Arthas, and fun splinter groups like the fanatics of the Scarlet Crusade or most necromancers/undeath cults. Whereas the orcs are what? A tribal society centered around concepts of honor and spiritual connections to the natural forces of the world? Savages, indeed.

[UnluckyAmateur]

I'd say when the Alliance stop blaming the Horde for what the Legion and its followers did or forced the orcs to do. Considering in the latest rescue Baine scenario it's shown that the leader of the Alliance secret service still blames the Horde for the death of King Llane, I'm going to go with never.

"Forced"

They drank the koolaid willingly

[Xykotic]

I don't feel that characters follow any kind of logic or reason anymore. So, they'll stop whenever Blizzards writing staff think they should stop. Until then they will continue to follow any bad idea posed to them as a vehicle to put them into the situation that will be the expansions content.

[Ielenia]

Who were under mind control.

Warlords of Draenor.

Also they can't call their organization a certain name because it might hurt their fee fees?

Oh, please. Stop with the condescending bullshit. You know full well how it goes. The humans, dwarves and gnomes still have fresh on their collective memories the horrors the Horde wrought in the Eastern Kingdoms. How do you think the Alliance would feel when they heard that there's an orc gathering the other orc clans to recreate the Horde? Would they say "let's hope they behave themselves this time and do not commit all the unthinkable atrocities they did in the past" or would they say "we need to be proactive and stop this Horde from being rebuilt, lest those barbarians attack us again"?

Or for a more "close to home" hypothetical: how do you think people of Germany, and the world, would feel if a group decided to recreate the Nazi party in Germany?

And you keep ignoring this...
You mean when they were given reliable proof by their own spiritual leaders that there were not one, not two, but three entire civilizations out to enslave them and unless they do something radical now IT WILL happen in the next few years?

They were fucking told by sources they believed were etched in stone that they were less than 5 years away from annihilation and slavery. There isn't a human society in existence that wouldn't react just like the orcs would if given such evidence. "There's 3 civilizations out there who want to annihilate us? We need to do EVERYTHING in our power to build up our military power as quickly as possible and launch a pre-emptive strike or all is lost."

And as soon as Grommash realized he'd been had and Gul'dan took over he quickly sided with us.

Bullshit. If what you said there about the orcs' reaction had any ounce of truth, they'd seek alliances to strengthen their military might to fight the incoming slavers, not butcher everything in their path. They wouldn't be murdering draenei left and right, and using their corpses to power the portal. They'd be allies with them.

And what Warlords of Draenor show us is that the Iron Horde didn't really care for the Legion. They defeated Mannoroth, and enslaved Gul'Dan and his Shadow Council, but after we free them in the WoD opening scenario, we never see the Iron Horde make a single move against the Legion or even Gul'Dan, leaving the guy well enough alone.

Orcs were simply bloodthirsty and were in for the conquest and glory. Not to protect themselves from a perceived future threat. "Protecting ourselves from future threats" never, ever, ever came into the picture, at no point in the game.

[Ramz]

no blizzard needs to stop trusting in shitty writers. the dying voljin vision thing seemed pretty cool but then they ruined it in BFA with a lot of nonsense.

It was never cool, it was shitty plot device to install Sylvanas against even Vol'Jin's judgement. BfA was retracting on it because it never made sense to begin with and was against troll lore.

[cparle87]

"Forced"

They drank the koolaid willingly

If you're told that a powerful race who have already virtually eradicated a civilization your own was powerless against were gearing up for arm to wipe you out, and you're told that all you need to do to become strong enough is drink something, would you think you had a choice? It's not as though Gul'dan told them that they were going to be mind-controlled into bloodthirsty beasts for the rest of their species' existence.

- - - Updated - - -

Warlords of Draenor.


Oh, please. Stop with the condescending bullshit. You know full well how it goes. The humans, dwarves and gnomes still have fresh on their collective memories the horrors the Horde wrought in the Eastern Kingdoms. How do you think the Alliance would feel when they heard that there's an orc gathering the other orc clans to recreate the Horde? Would they say "let's hope they behave themselves this time and do not commit all the unthinkable atrocities they did in the past" or would they say "we need to be proactive and stop this Horde from being rebuilt, lest those barbarians attack us again"?

Or for a more "close to home" hypothetical: how do you think people of Germany, and the world, would feel if a group decided to recreate the Nazi party in Germany?


Bullshit. If what you said there about the orcs' reaction had any ounce of truth, they'd seek alliances to strengthen their military might to fight the incoming slavers, not butcher everything in their path. They wouldn't be murdering draenei left and right, and using their corpses to power the portal. They'd be allies with them.

And what Warlords of Draenor show us is that the Iron Horde didn't really care for the Legion. They defeated Mannoroth, and enslaved Gul'Dan and his Shadow Council, but after we free them in the WoD opening scenario, we never see the Iron Horde make a single move against the Legion or even Gul'Dan, leaving the guy well enough alone.

Orcs were simply bloodthirsty and were in for the conquest and glory. Not to protect themselves from a perceived future threat. "Protecting ourselves from future threats" never, ever, ever came into the picture, at no point in the game.

As for your "hope they behave" statement the Kirin Tor did extensive study of the orcs while they were in the internment camps. Although they didn't know the exact details of the blood curse they did know there was some malign influence over the orcs driving them to aggression that had been broken.

You're not talking about remaking the Nazi party. You're protesting to the idea that the country they refounded after having their entire population enslaved is still called Germany.

Who did they have to ally with? The only other sentient race they shared the world with at the time were the ogres, whom the draenei had already shown they could defeat at any time, and the arakkoa whom they had no connection to.

You mean like we didn't see Illidan attacking the Legion all through BC while we were attacking his forces after being given bad advice? Just because we didn't see the Iron Horde going after Gul'dan didn't mean they weren't. Need I remind you that Highmaul was allied with the Iron Horde and was attacked by Cho'gall, who was a Shadow Council agent.

As to your last statement, you do realize there are supplemental materials to the game, or are you one of those people who go "La la la I can't hear you if it's not ingame it's not real lore and I'll pretend it doesn't exist so I can be mad that something doesn't make sense." Cause there's way too many of them on the forum.

Also, see my above post to Unlucky Amateur above. Garrosh made sure they felt their backs were against the wall and extermination was around the corner to get them to do what he wants. Ironic he played the same card that Gul'dan did.

[UnluckyAmateur]

If you're told that a powerful race who have already virtually eradicated a civilization your own was powerless against were gearing up for arm to wipe you out, and you're told that all you need to do to become strong enough is drink something, would you think you had a choice? It's not as though Gul'dan told them that they were going to be mind-controlled into bloodthirsty beasts for the rest of their species' existence.

Funny considering how much they value honor and honorable deaths, they decide to instead drink the koolaid instead of fighting to the last soldier like the aldrachi did.

[Ielenia]

As for your "hope they behave" statement the Kirin Tor did extensive study of the orcs while they were in the internment camps. Although they didn't know the exact details of the blood curse they did know there was some malign influence over the orcs driving them to aggression that had been broken.

And we still had an orc gathering other orcs to remake the Horde. Research or no research, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the most likely scenario is that whatever caused their original savagery must likely be having a resurgence. "Better safe than sorry" and all that.

You're not talking about remaking the Nazi party. You're protesting to the idea that the country they refounded after having their entire population enslaved is still called Germany.

False. It's a 1:1 perfect comparison with the idea of someone wanting to re-create the Nazi group, in the real world. It'd be asinine if those people didn't think that using the name "Nazi" would not bring ill will from others around them. For this exact reason I say that Thrall using the name "Horde" was an asinine decision from his part in hindsight, as he knew what the Horde did to the human kingdoms. He has to have known that using that name again would bring all the baggage and ill-will from the Alliance.

Who did they have to ally with? The only other sentient race they shared the world with at the time were the ogres, whom the draenei had already shown they could defeat at any time, and the arakkoa whom they had no connection to.

Bolded part is false. At least not proven correct. And yes. Even if they could "easily defeat" the draenei, those are still more soldiers they could train to bolster their own forces. At the very least use them as fodder. But the orcs weren't interested in alliances. They wanted to conquer and pillage.

You mean like we didn't see Illidan attacking the Legion all through BC while we were attacking his forces after being given bad advice? Just because we didn't see the Iron Horde going after Gul'dan didn't mean they weren't. Need I remind you that Highmaul was allied with the Iron Horde and was attacked by Cho'gall, who was a Shadow Council agent.

The patch 2.1 cinematic shows Illidan fighting the Legion.

As to your last statement, you do realize there are supplemental materials to the game, or are you one of those people who go "La la la I can't hear you if it's not ingame it's not real lore and I'll pretend it doesn't exist so I can be mad that something doesn't make sense." Cause there's way too many of them on the forum.

I own a copy of the game. Period. If there are supplemental lore from books about this, feel free to cite the books and give me a page so I can try to verify your claim.

Also, see my above post to Unlucky Amateur above. Garrosh made sure they felt their backs were against the wall and extermination was around the corner to get them to do what he wants. Ironic he played the same card that Gul'dan did.

It's a BS argument to make because, again, if the Iron Horde really was about "protection" rather than "pillage and conquest", then they'd seek allies, and all they had were the ogres. Again, even if the draenei were "weaker" (which I don't believe, I think they got caught unprepared), the draenei soldiers could still be used as fodder. And their technology is nothing to scoff at.

If the Iron Horde was really about protecting themselves against the Burning Legion, then the way they went about it was the most retarded way possible, intentionally squandering their own chances of survival.

[Zulkhan]

1) Ner'zhul didn't trust "visions", he trusted a deceiver he should have known NOT to trust but did anyway because of personal flaws, torn between his personal feelings for his wife and the latent thirst for power lurking within him;

2) Like it or not, we simply don't know enough to properly and definitely judge the matter of Vol'jin and Sylvanas;

3) I'm pretty sure Baine would have indeed died if no one did anything. Saving him may have been part of Sylvanas' "plan" (which is getting more and more hysterical as the story goes on) but not saving him would have obviously caused Ussoh's vision to come by.