Lor'themar and Jaina Dialogue on Factions Following the Eternal Palace Finale

[Super Dickmann]

I don't really agree with that - Garrosh appeared a bit more often than Sylvanas has, and was a bit more hands-on (understandable given the difference between the two characters), but Sylvanas has still been a pervasive and important presence behind all of BfA. Unlike Garrosh, she was actually the one to proactively and completely trigger a state of total war between the Alliance and Horde at Darkshore, with Garrosh's conflict having been piggybacked from Varian's declaration of war back in WotLK. I won't disagree that MoP's narrative was more centrally managed than BfA's, but that's not really the argument being made either. As for Sylvanas' motivations, both "A Good War" and "Before the Storm" show them pretty clearly and as a product of her own internal monologue - so unless there's an added 11th hour element to all this (which may indeed be the case), we still have a pretty clear picture of what she intended and intends.

I won't deny that Sylvanas has a presence even if she rarely appears and while that's ordinarily good, it's something Garrosh also did, but in a more meaningful way. We saw the worm's eye view a lot more in Mists, with how your average dude was doing, thinking and was treated. The individual racial leaders were likewise characterized in more detail. Gallywix's story is a standout, but so is that one with the Dragonmaw orc. I won't vouch for all these stories, I definitely wouldn't vouch for Mists, but it objectively better executed and better handled the effects of its designated bad guy's reign.

I agree with the differences you've voiced re: Garrosh, though Mists was quick to sweep them under the rug. With Sylvanas, I'm taking it for granted that her thought process in Before the Storm was tricking the reader, since her goals there are extremely basic - destroy Stormwind, raise the population, divide its lands among the Horde. That version of Sylvanas does want the Horde to win, even if it's not a Horde many would sign up to and raising a city's worth of people is something of a dick move. A Good War muddles the water somewhat with allusions to her true goal and in-game it's anyone's guess what she's doing and why. I'd be pleasantly surprised if they stuck with her doing all that to destroy Stormwind but I really doubt it.

[Rhlor]

Yeah, I meant 5.1 Re; Garrosh's appearances. He's in virtually every part, either directly or by something he ordered. As for the summit, Sylvanas is the reactive figure there, with Baine pushing the plot along. Baine is the one we follow and see do things, Sylvanas only appears for forty seconds of dialogue whereupon she bails again. Her direct presence is far less than Garrosh's. Likewise, despite all the back and forth we've done about the opinions people and so forth, Garrosh's actions in regards to them, the rifts between the Horde and the reasons there for were also far more clear in Mists.

tl;dr Mists is a better Mists than BFA. Garrosh is better at being Garrosh than Sylvanas.

@Rhlor

That's true. But they could just leave after the portals are up. Then N'zoth isn't freed and Sylvanas' plan fails. Azshara takes advantage of their pathological heroism. Were they dickheads or even just people prioritizing Sylvanas' overthrow and world peace they could've left and focused on the Sadaxe Rebellion.

they could not just ignore azshara and her naga army.

[Swnem]

Blizz is going to let Sylvanas win. So they can say “see it’s not another MoP story line”.

Keep telling yourself that. xD

[Super Dickmann]

they could not just ignore azshara and her naga army.

They could. It'd just be a dick move because they'd be ditching the kelfin and Ankoan and they're nice dudes who don't like doing that. But that doesn't mean it's beyond the pale - they knew Azshara wanted them there and even invited them to her palace. They knew too that now that they had the tidestone, the gun she had to their head is gone. It's not beyond the pale for people to leave in this situation and so it's not beyond the pale to judge them for the consequences of that choice - namely playing into Azshara's hands, failing to kill her and freeing N'zoth.

[Aucald]

I won't deny that Sylvanas has a presence even if she rarely appears and while that's ordinarily good, it's something Garrosh also did, but in a more meaningful way. We saw the worm's eye view a lot more in Mists, with how your average dude was doing, thinking and was treated. The individual racial leaders were likewise characterized in more detail. Gallywix's story is a standout, but so is that one with the Dragonmaw orc. I won't vouch for all these stories, I definitely wouldn't vouch for Mists, but it objectively better executed and better handled the effects of its designated bad guy's reign.

Sylvanas was quite significant in Legion as well, concerning Stormheim and the Odyn/Val'kyr B-plot as well as her perennial involvement in PvP-centric content. Not sure how any of that is non-meaningful, even in comparison. As for BfA vs. MoP, this is because that despite their similarities they're telling different stories. MoP was about a localized conflict in a "dirty war" type of scenario - with the PC acting as more or less a specialist in their respective faction's vanguard in a foreign land. BfA is a larger, and much fuzzier, global conflict - with theaters of war distributed all across Azeroth from Kul Tiras to Zandalar and the Arathi Highlands to Darkshore. Which is better executed or better in general is a matter of opinion, but the role of the faction leaders and the PC differ because the scope, tone, and pacing of the stories are very different. Garrosh as a leader had a very boots on the ground mentality, and liked to mix it up with his soldiers (it is after all part and parcel of what secured his meteoric rise in the ranks of the Horde). Sylvanas is more a schemer and calculator, and her style is more hands off than Garrosh's - she prefers the shadows and the background, only moving into the light to strike when victory seems assured.

I agree with the differences you've voiced re: Garrosh, though Mists was quick to sweep them under the rug. With Sylvanas, I'm taking it for granted that her thought process in Before the Storm was tricking the reader, since her goals there are extremely basic - destroy Stormwind, raise the population, divide its lands among the Horde. That version of Sylvanas does want the Horde to win, even if it's not a Horde many would sign up to and raising a city's worth of people is something of a dick move. A Good War muddles the water somewhat with allusions to her true goal and in-game it's anyone's guess what she's doing and why. I'd be pleasantly surprised if they stuck with her doing all that to destroy Stormwind but I really doubt it.

I don't buy into the notion that Sylvanas evinced some form of meta-narrative recognition of her role as a character in a fictional story as a means of "tricking the reader." Being granted insight into the mind of a given character is pretty much a de facto objective look into said character's thoughts. I mean, she could be deceiving herself, but she's not using meta-narrative trickery to deceive the reader by any means. I don't think her goals in "A Good War" and "Before the Storm" are by any means mutually exclusive, and her own mind she probably see her own furtherance and continued legacy as "good for the Horde" by proxy - she's the Warchief, after all, her fortunes are the Horde's fortunes (in her own self-serving justification for her actions). I don't think destroying Stormwind would be her be all and end all, either; it's simply a stepping stone to greater things. Sylvanas' current pathology shows us a person who is unable to feel safe, no matter how much temporal power she's gathered - converting all of Stormwind to Forsaken would assuage her paranoid fear for awhile, but not forever. Greater threats (real or imagined) would push her to further and further means to secure herself and her eternal legacy.

[Trassk]

While I don't disagree that Sylvanas is allied with N'Zoth on *some* level (whether or not she's actually aware of it currently), there's still nothing that concretely and conclusively points to an alliance between N'Zoth and Sylvanas. Even her use of Xal'atath could be explained as means to position the Alliance into a trap she had some foreknowledge of due to interrogating Ashvane - and Nathanos tells the Horde Champion that the Alliance had indeed fallen into Sylvanas' "trap" before he stalks off with Xal'atath still in hand.

There's a wealth of circumstantial evidence that points to Sylvanas being allied to some degree with N'Zoth, but there's no proverbial smoking gun just yet. And since Sylvanas has zero impact on or any appearance in Nazjatar or the Eternal Palace, she's still mostly free and clear as concerns N'Zoth's release.

no my point being she's another puppet used by n'zoth to achieve his goals, and she wouldn't even know about it. In the same way he used both azshara and the players with the heart of azeroth. Of all the old gods n'zoth is more a skilled manipulator then the others. Just like how azshara thought she had all the cards, sylvanas thinks the same, and both are just puppets used by him for his end game.

[Aucald]

no my point being she's another puppet used by n'zoth to achieve his goals, and she wouldn't even know about it. In the same way he used both azshara and the players with the heart of azeroth. Of all the old gods n'zoth is more a skilled manipulator then the others. Just like how azshara thought she had all the cards, sylvanas thinks the same, and both are just puppets used by him for his end game.

Except we still don't have any conclusive evidence that N'Zoth has used Sylvanas? I'm actually more of the mind that Sylvanas thinks releasing N'Zoth is a good thing - it will distract both the Alliance and her enemies within the Horde, making them turn away to face N'Zoth's threat and thus taking their eyes of her, allowing her to act with impunity. This could, of course, be exactly what N'Zoth wants her to think - she's aware we've somehow done away with all the Old Gods we've encountered thus far, and so may be underestimating the danger of a fully released and empowered Old God. Either way, my point was that we don't really have any conclusive proof that connects Sylvanas and N'Zoth in any direct fashion - and even her use of Xal'atath has so far been through a proxy (e.g Nathanos) and wasn't involved in N'Zoth's actual release from his imprisonment.

[mickybrighteyes]

Then let's take Orgrimmar already! There are a dozen different ways the Alliance could do it. The most efficient one would be to send Jaina and her magical ship, the Vindicaar, and the Ironforge aerial fleet to serve as a distraction while the Ren'dorei open many portals for our armies to invade the city from within.

The iron forge aeriel fleet?

with what methods for keepign them airborne all the way across the ocean? Teleport in for every flight? establish a new base to field them? I mean the other options make some amount of sense but at that last bit you're stretching. That one ranks up there with suicide goblin bombers sacking any city of choice because they could theoretically have something with a payload comparable to what was used in Theramore and sneak it into the region...

but really logistics in this game is fucked. so it doesn't matter.

[Ielenia]

At this point Blizzard solidified Lor'themar's place as "Guy who sides with the opposition to the crazy Warchief" token character. Its literally MoP scenario.
I dont know was it Blizzard writers intention or not, but they made him into the great opportunist. He always follows the tide, but right before the tide turns to be the threat he sides with the stronger faction with "Oh, look at me, actually good guy who always wanted peace" face.

Like damn, dude, just sign that Alliance paper and thats it, no one except crazy Sylvanas loyalists/Bad Horde fans would blame you.

This is false. An opportunist is someone who takes advantage of situations to gain power, money, or both. Basically, selfish gain. In both events you mentioned... Lor'themar does neither. He is not doing (and did not do) this for power or wealth, but actually thinking on the well-being of his people. That is not opportunism.

[Super Dickmann]

Sylvanas was quite significant in Legion as well, concerning Stormheim and the Odyn/Val'kyr B-plot as well as her perennial involvement in PvP-centric content. Not sure how any of that is non-meaningful, even in comparison. As for BfA vs. MoP, this is because that despite their similarities they're telling different stories. MoP was about a localized conflict in a "dirty war" type of scenario - with the PC acting as more or less a specialist in their respective faction's vanguard in a foreign land. BfA is a larger, and much fuzzier, global conflict - with theaters of war distributed all across Azeroth from Kul Tiras to Zandalar and the Arathi Highlands to Darkshore. Which is better executed or better in general is a matter of opinion, but the role of the faction leaders and the PC differ because the scope, tone, and pacing of the stories are very different. Garrosh as a leader had a very boots on the ground mentality, and liked to mix it up with his soldiers (it is after all part and parcel of what secured his meteoric rise in the ranks of the Horde). Sylvanas is more a schemer and calculator, and her style is more hands off than Garrosh's - she prefers the shadows and the background, only moving into the light to strike when victory seems assured.

BFA is a touch thematically confused, not even counting the issues cropped up by execution. It's also far more scattered. Pandaria was a single contested area that both factions either wanted or needed to influence. Kul Tiras and Zandalar are basically free of the other faction and are recruited for an indirect benefit later on. The thing with Sylvanas in Stormheim is that her being Warchief there is incidental. You could do the exact same story with Vol'jin as Warchief. In fact, the story would make more sense because the Alliance wouldn't have tried to assassinate the head of state, which would've made their jobs slightly easier when it came time to put the Horde through the wringer again. The only time where Sylvanas' reign as Warchief is explored is the first two-three chapters of BTS. Compare the information we have on Garrosh's policies, his reason thereof and their effect both on the upper rungs and among the races. Especially within the expansion where they are to be ousted. The problem Mists had with orcs extends to everyone in BFA and I really, really doubt that's intended.

Also, this is an off-topic personal quibble, but I find the notion that Sylvanas is a schemer where Garry is more of a brute more visual than actual. Sylvanas has been in the front lines constantly and genuinely based plans around herself, such as the War of Thorns, her previous attempt on Arthas etc. Her schemes are less impressive, even if she's a decent tactician by WoW standards. To compare, while Garrosh does fight a lot, he also spends a lot of time plotting - Theramore, the Bell heist which given the fallout it's implied he knew would follow is very advanced, the Focusing Iris theft, etc. There were few instances where Garrosh didn't have his own resources to spring into a plan until he was imprisoned. Sylvanas does well at the start, but things like the Derek scheme are questionable at best and if she hadn't been given the knaifu she'd basically lost. In turn, she does things like make herself the centerpiece of the throne room thing where Garrosh would've cut his losses and pulled back like he did occasionally with Varian. The fandom undersells Garrosh as a schemer and Sylvanas as a lead from the front style figure, when the two have elements of both. Anyway, tangent over.

I don't think her goals in "A Good War" and "Before the Storm" are by any means mutually exclusive, and her own mind she probably see her own furtherance and continued legacy as "good for the Horde" by proxy - she's the Warchief, after all, her fortunes are the Horde's fortunes (in her own self-serving justification for her actions). I don't think destroying Stormwind would be her be all and end all, either; it's simply a stepping stone to greater things. Sylvanas' current pathology shows us a person who is unable to feel safe, no matter how much temporal power she's gathered - converting all of Stormwind to Forsaken would assuage her paranoid fear for awhile, but not forever. Greater threats (real or imagined) would push her to further and further means to secure herself and her eternal legacy.

Her goals in those are a lot more down to earth than her implied mastery of death. Her position on preserving the Horde as her bulwark would make sense, but it's also conjecture and dubious conjecture at that. Her attack on Stormwind is also off, because while we know she wants to do it, it also doesn't actually secure her from death, it just gives more bodies between her and it. The problem then is that if she does have a motive separate from it it's extremely vague. It's why I'm leaning towards Occam's Razor and that her helping Old Gods and using an Old God tool is because she's an old god puppet and she'll ditch the Horde now that it turned on her to instead hitch her wagon to N'zoth, who has an (admittedly tenuous) link to the Shadowlands.

[Dellis0991]

Yeah, space goat plots were so much better.

better then this.

[Amaterasu65]

If they try to make Sylvanas the master planner who genuinely cares for world peace and tries to achieve it by uniting the factions against her a la Lelouch the Sylvie fanboys will become so insufferable for years, I swear to God...

[Athredas]

Now the good twist would be if Sylvanas would actually win the war and majority of the Horde population would follow her. Screw this no factions peacecraft crap.

[Kallisto]

BFA is a touch thematically confused, not even counting the issues cropped up by execution. It's also far more scattered. Pandaria was a single contested area that both factions either wanted or needed to influence. Kul Tiras and Zandalar are basically free of the other faction and are recruited for an indirect benefit later on. The thing with Sylvanas in Stormheim is that her being Warchief there is incidental. You could do the exact same story with Vol'jin as Warchief. In fact, the story would make more sense because the Alliance wouldn't have tried to assassinate the head of state, which would've made their jobs slightly easier when it came time to put the Horde through the wringer again. The only time where Sylvanas' reign as Warchief is explored is the first two-three chapters of BTS. Compare the information we have on Garrosh's policies, his reason thereof and their effect both on the upper rungs and among the races. Especially within the expansion where they are to be ousted. The problem Mists had with orcs extends to everyone in BFA and I really, really doubt that's intended.

Also, this is an off-topic personal quibble, but I find the notion that Sylvanas is a schemer where Garry is more of a brute more visual than actual. Sylvanas has been in the front lines constantly and genuinely based plans around herself, such as the War of Thorns, her previous attempt on Arthas etc. Her schemes are less impressive, even if she's a decent tactician by WoW standards. To compare, while Garrosh does fight a lot, he also spends a lot of time plotting - Theramore, the Bell heist which given the fallout it's implied he knew would follow is very advanced, the Focusing Iris theft, etc. There were few instances where Garrosh didn't have his own resources to spring into a plan until he was imprisoned. Sylvanas does well at the start, but things like the Derek scheme are questionable at best and if she hadn't been given the knaifu she'd basically lost. In turn, she does things like make herself the centerpiece of the throne room thing where Garrosh would've cut his losses and pulled back like he did occasionally with Varian. The fandom undersells Garrosh as a schemer and Sylvanas as a lead from the front style figure, when the two have elements of both. Anyway, tangent over.



Her goals in those are a lot more down to earth than her implied mastery of death. Her position on preserving the Horde as her bulwark would make sense, but it's also conjecture and dubious conjecture at that. Her attack on Stormwind is also off, because while we know she wants to do it, it also doesn't actually secure her from death, it just gives more bodies between her and it. The problem then is that if she does have a motive separate from it it's extremely vague. It's why I'm leaning towards Occam's Razor and that her helping Old Gods and using an Old God tool is because she's an old god puppet and she'll ditch the Horde now that it turned on her to instead hitch her wagon to N'zoth, who has an (admittedly tenuous) link to the Shadowlands.

The problem with her being an old god puppet is that the void wants her dead. Old gods (well nzoth. The others are dead) are part of that faction. Even in game their servants are telling us to turn on her. They screamed at alleria to kill her.

That pretty much flues in the face of her being used by N'zoth. Plus the whole death = Enemy of all. While void is seemingly now trying to paint itself as our one true friend.

[THEORACLE64]

Horde died with Garrosh.

Whats left is pussies, weaklings, traitors and Alliance slaves.
Hopefully we get Cata and MoP servers soon after classic.

Correct. The Horde did die when Garrosh took over.

[Cathululock]

Sylvanas helped Lor'themar and his people and now he sides against her? What an ungrateful traitor.

That's like saying you wouldn't have shot Hitler in the head while he was committing atrocities because he loaned you lunch money that one time in highschool

silly comment.

[Zandalariprelate]

Yeah, space goat plots were so much better.

Space goats are Bae

[vipers]

Sylvanas helped Lor'themar and his people and now he sides against her? What an ungrateful traitor.

One good deed does not redeem him from all the other bad she has done

Correct. The Horde did die when Garrosh took over.

And Sylvanas was there too to stop Garrosh

[ilgynoth]

The devs said that at the end of the cinematic, we will know who exactly the final Boss of BfA is. What did we saw? Nzoths chains were destroyed and he is free now.

+ the blizzcon 2018 8.3 leak (that people "kinda forgot about")

[IMG][/IMG]

= Nzoth (and probably Azshata too) is the final end boss.

We will deal with Sylvanas in patch 8.2.5 Story wise, or she could be in a mini raid, depends if 8.2.5 will be similiar like 8.1.5 was.
If not, then she will be probably somehow a part of the 8.3 Raid (maybe corrupted, maybe in a fight against Nzoth)

[VladlTutushkin]

The only remotely passable outcome (that's actually possible) is that SoO 2.0 is 8.3 and N'zoth gets moved to the next one. The actual likely outcome is that SoO 2.0 is in 8.2.5 and the Unifaction is fully formed by 8.3.

Among the good outcomes that will never happen is Tyrande killing Saurfang and thus the Hordalliance in its crib.

Only if she kills Sylvanus too, because if she just kills Saurfang she will just do banshee a favor and achieve nothing.