Armies ( not sure it entirely concerns lore, but still... )

[Gatto]

Given a battle between two armies H and A, which let's say start with the same number of soldiers, and given the fact that both sides will have some losses in terms of men, shouldn't the horde be able to gain 100% extra soldiers from Alliance and let's say from 50% to 75% from their own faction, just by raising undeads?

In a middle/long term scenario, won't the horde be able to overhang the alliance?

Am I missing anything?

[tromage2]

Plotarmor.

If you just look at the races you can alrdy see what side is stronger.

[Aucald]

If the Val'kyr were allowed to act unchecked or unhindered by the morality of their allies, yes. The Val'kyr might also still have some limits on what they can raise - we know Humans and Elves of all kinds are in their purview but Tauren, Trolls, Dwarves, Draenei, etc. may not be.

[Gatto]

During Lordaeron assault, doesn't Sylvanas resurrect as undeads ( not forsaken ) both hordes and alliance soldiers?

[Vapo]

During Lordaeron assault, doesn't Sylvanas resurrect as undeads ( not forsaken ) both hordes and alliance soldiers?

barely raises them as skeletons than resurrecting as undead.

[Varodoc]

Aside from the fact that the rest of the Horde would not stand for that (notice how Sylvanas used mass resurrection only once since she became Warchief), the resurrected beings are just rudimentary skeletons barely holding together and appear to have no loyalty to anyone and are completely mindless (Proof: The skeleton troops raised by Sylvanas at Lordaeron are just roaming around the blighted wasteland instead of helping the Horde in any way). This is but the first of the many inconveniences that you overlooked.

[Rozz]

If she were to use a tactic similar to the scourge, then yes she would inevitably win. However the cost of behaving like the scourge are her allies, which would try to stop her before reaching that point (like now). The only reason Arthas lost was because he was dumb enough to reduce/slow his armies to lure in 'powerful champions' and Tirion's light plot armor (which hilariously failed in Legion).

Blizzard also invented more ways for cosmic typings to create their own version of undeath. If Sylvanas could convince a branch of each Horde race to master a form of undeath unique to their specialty, she'd be a proper Lich Queen. It'd also be more difficult to be immune to death magic because of this.

[Aucald]

If she were to use a tactic similar to the scourge, then yes she would inevitably win. However the cost of behaving like the scourge are her allies, which would try to stop her before reaching that point (like now). The only reason Arthas lost was because he was dumb enough to reduce/slow his armies to lure in 'powerful champions' and Tirion's light plot armor (which hilariously failed in Legion).

Blizzard also invented more ways for cosmic typings to create their own version of undeath. If Sylvanas could convince a branch of each Horde race to master a form of undeath unique to their specialty, she'd be a proper Lich Queen. It'd also be more difficult to be immune to death magic because of this.

I always thought Arthas' play was actually genius, especially in light of the fact that he basically won in the end - he slaughtered the Ashen Verdict champions and was in the midst of raising them all before he was stopped by what was effectively a divine intervention. There's no real way he could account for that, though; even if he thought it was possible how could really plan for it?

[Maljinwo]

If the Horde tried using the Undead, the Alliance could probably use their people literally imbued with Light, that counters them.

[Triceron]

If you've ever played Warcraft 3, Dispel makes short work of Skeletons.

[ArenaDk]

If she were to use a tactic similar to the scourge, then yes she would inevitably win. However the cost of behaving like the scourge are her allies, which would try to stop her before reaching that point (like now). The only reason Arthas lost was because he was dumb enough to reduce/slow his armies to lure in 'powerful champions' and Tirion's light plot armor (which hilariously failed in Legion).

Blizzard also invented more ways for cosmic typings to create their own version of undeath. If Sylvanas could convince a branch of each Horde race to master a form of undeath unique to their specialty, she'd be a proper Lich Queen. It'd also be more difficult to be immune to death magic because of this.

The only reason arthas was even allowed to live this long was plot armor. And the moment he would have left northend with his armys , the scourge would have been slaughterd anyways

[Rozz]

I always thought Arthas' play was actually genius, especially in light of the fact that he basically won in the end - he slaughtered the Ashen Verdict champions and was in the midst of raising them all before he was stopped by what was effectively a divine intervention. There's no real way he could account for that, though; even if he thought it was possible how could really plan for it?

I felt it was foolish, because he simply didn't have to. There was nothing to stop him from killing everyone anyways and then raising his favorites. Why let people annihilate his strongest forces for a handful of gems? He would lose a lot for little in return. Even if Tirion or the PCs were powerful, those units can't make up for the loss of his dragons, Sanlayn, etc. They were better at entirely different things, that wasn't worth a few more boots on the ground imo.

- - - Updated - - -

The only reason arthas was even allowed to live this long was plot armor. And the moment he would have left northend with his armys , the scourge would have been slaughterd anyways

I don't believe that's true, considering it took the factions combined (with massive losses) to even dock on Northrend.
Especially when he revealed we were apparently playing into his hands in ICC until the light freed Tirion.

[Aucald]

I felt it was foolish, because he simply didn't have to. There was nothing to stop him from killing everyone anyways and then raising his favorites. Why let people annihilate his strongest forces for a handful of gems? He would lose a lot for little in return. Even if Tirion or the PCs were powerful, those units can't make up for the loss of his dragons, Sanlayn, etc. They were better at entirely different things, that wasn't worth a few more boots on the ground imo.

25 peerless champions in exchange for a few minions, while taking away the heart and soul of both the Alliance and Horde armies in the process? I'd take those odds, personally speaking. Lana'thel and the San'layn were just rando Blood Elves that had followed Kael'thas to Northrend in WC3: TFT, nothing really special about them in the long term. Sacrificing a few powerful abominations? Plenty where those came from. He also lost a captive green dragon and Sindragosa. All in all, I think he would've made out well if he had been successful. Can you imagine how powerful the Ashen Verdict champions might've been once they'd been empowered as Scourge commanders - e.g. the same kind of empowerment Lana'thel and Dranosh Saurfang got?

His biggest loss was Kel'thuzad, all in all, which seems like the only loss he really didn't plan for.

[Rozz]

25 peerless champions in exchange for a few minions, while taking away the heart and soul of both the Alliance and Horde armies in the process? I'd take those odds, personally speaking. Lana'thel and the San'layn were just rando Blood Elves that had followed Kael'thas to Northrend in WC3: TFT, nothing really special about them in the long term. Sacrificing a few powerful abominations? Plenty where those came from. He also lost a captive green dragon and Sindragosa. All in all, I think he would've made out well if he had been successful. Can you imagine how powerful the Ashen Verdict champions might've been once they'd been empowered as Scourge commanders - e.g. the same kind of empowerment Lana'thel and Dranosh Saurfang got?

His biggest loss was Kel'thuzad, all in all, which seems like the only loss he really didn't plan for.

My focus on their importance was in what type of units they were. He had strategist, magic users, travel units, etc and he sacrificed a lot of them for "25 peerless champions" he could've gotten inevitably. That's the trade off he made, more DKs at the expense of his most valuable support.

Even if people like the Ashen Verdict got empowered, they'd still be limited by having only DKS. The army would lack in variety and be limited to the abilities at hand. The Illidari had more than just DHs, because the skills of the broken, naga, and demons were all essential for everything to come together. I feel like Arthas' plan was foolish because it was unnecessary and even if it was successful, he'd be forced to replenish the troops he never had to sacrifice in the first place.

[Aucald]

My focus on their importance was in what type of units they were. He had strategist, magic users, travel units, etc and he sacrificed a lot of them for "25 peerless champions" he could've gotten inevitably. That's the trade off he made, more DKs at the expense of his most valuable support.

Even if people like the Ashen Verdict got empowered, they'd still be limited by having only DKS. The army would lack in variety and be limited to the abilities at hand. The Illidari had more than just DHs, because the skills of the broken, naga, and demons were all essential for everything to come together. I feel like Arthas' plan was foolish because it was unnecessary and even if it was successful, he'd be forced to replenish the troops he never had to sacrifice in the first place.

I'm not so sure all 25 would've just become Death Knights - especially in light of what he'd already accomplished with several other examples. It's likely the Paladins, Warriors, other martial examples would've become powerful Death Knights like Saurfang Jr. did - but the Mages and Priests likely would've become powerful Liches, and some may have go on to become something akin to Lana'thel, or may have been made into altogether new Scourge units. I don't think Arthas was just in the market for 25 special DK's, in that sense; he had his sights set a bit higher than all that.

I'll agree that in the cost/benefit analysis his plan was a bit odd, though; although much of that probably comes from his whole desire to force the Horde and Alliance champions to emulate his own journey into darkness. It was kind of a vanity project for Arthas as well as a strategic one.

[Jastall]

The undead are powerful but hardly invincible. Sylvanas's raised soldiers at Lordearon were decisively countered by one spell. Mindless undead in general seem fairly easy prey for the high power levels seen in Warcraft, IE the forces raised by Bwonsamdi during the battle of Dazar'Alor barely slowed down the Alliance raid it seems, and Horde/Alliance forces at the Wrathgate cut through Scourge forces with relative ease before Arthas arrived personally.

Full-on Forsaken are something else, but they take time and effort to raise, it's hardly possible mid-battle where the Val'kyrs would be an obvious priority target, as seen in the Darkshore scenario.

[Varodoc]

The undead are powerful but hardly invincible. Sylvanas's raised soldiers at Lordearon were decisively countered by one spell. Mindless undead in general seem fairly easy prey for the high power levels seen in Warcraft, IE the forces raised by Bwonsamdi during the battle of Dazar'Alor barely slowed down the Alliance raid it seems, and Horde/Alliance forces at the Wrathgate cut through Scourge forces with relative ease before Arthas arrived personally.

Full-on Forsaken are something else, but they take time and effort to raise, it's hardly possible mid-battle where the Val'kyrs would be an obvious priority target, as seen in the Darkshore scenario.

And once raised, they are in theory given a choice, so they can potentially turn against Sylvanas. And if they are not given a choice, as we saw with the backlash with Derek, Sylvanas would stain even further her already bad reputation with the other members of the Horde and even some of her own people like Voss who are strong supporters of free will.

So really, there is no scenario where Sylvanas can just overwhelm the Alliance World War Z style and at the same time keep the Horde united. She would lose either way.

[FelPlague]

barely raises them as skeletons than resurrecting as undead.

1. "barely raises" there is not a "barely" they were raised or they wernt.
2. skeletons are undead.

[Zandalariprelate]

My focus on their importance was in what type of units they were. He had strategist, magic users, travel units, etc and he sacrificed a lot of them for "25 peerless champions" he could've gotten inevitably. That's the trade off he made, more DKs at the expense of his most valuable support.

Let's be real, the murder hobos are really op and likely some of them would had turned into other type of undead like blood mage, liches, some unholy/death magic for the priest, etc. The guy who controls the 25 hobos, literally will control the world.

[therealstegblob]

25 peerless champions in exchange for a few minions, while taking away the heart and soul of both the Alliance and Horde armies in the process? I'd take those odds, personally speaking. Lana'thel and the San'layn were just rando Blood Elves that had followed Kael'thas to Northrend in WC3: TFT, nothing really special about them in the long term. Sacrificing a few powerful abominations? Plenty where those came from. He also lost a captive green dragon and Sindragosa. All in all, I think he would've made out well if he had been successful. Can you imagine how powerful the Ashen Verdict champions might've been once they'd been empowered as Scourge commanders - e.g. the same kind of empowerment Lana'thel and Dranosh Saurfang got?

His biggest loss was Kel'thuzad, all in all, which seems like the only loss he really didn't plan for.

This is a lot of mental gymnastics to try and defend shitty writing, dude. Depending on who you ask at Blizzard, two things happened: 1.) Arthas was actually "trying to destroy the scourge" and was fighting against the Lich King's will or 2.) It was just bad writing.