Any room left for people where everything is not about speed.

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

Efficiency to me is killing a pack with minimum damage taken and minimum amount of healer mana spent.

Thats not efficient, thats you being a grandma.
Go back to LFR.

[Pachycrocuta]

This is why I don't tank for random people. It annoys the shit out of me when DPS pull, and I prefer not skipping trash. I have never done a M+ dungeon, and never plan on it unless I can solo it a couple expansions later. But I am unsubbed, and not sure if I will come back to modern WoW. I may try Classic, but somehow I doubt it.

[Tesshin20]

I never said your personal experience is low, i said it sounds low, and your answers gives me a few things i need to know, you get cutting edge but barely do any M+ yeah?

If the answer is no, then whats the problem? Just because M+ has a timer? 9/10 times the timer is irrelevant if there is no extra reward and you dont really have to push the key, why cant you enjoy that way?

I do lots of mythic+ I have done a couple of keys on most of my characters in the 10-17 range for 2 expansions.

Why people do mythic+ keys on a timer with speed makes sense, because of the timer. I was mostly talking about dungeons while leveling alts where there are no timers. I could have been more clear about that.

- - - Updated - - -

Thats not efficient, thats you being a grandma.
Go back to LFR.

You post makes no sense. And I raid mythic, so LFR is very much not interesting to me.

[SkagenRora]

You have limited time to do everything you need to do every day.. why would you want something to be slower than it already is?

[MrExcelion]

I was mostly talking about dungeons while leveling alts where there are no timers. I could have been more clear about that

In that case, you can probably just ignore chat most of the time, like doing a random bg which is filled with complaining anytime on the losing side (even in close games). Or LFR really, which is just the raid version of LFD. At least there the LFD tool will replace the rage quitters so it's not like you have to go out of your way to please them to stay. Unless they're abusing the vote kick system and removing you. Pretty much guaranteed you'll never see anyone again when leveling so I guess people are willing to be meaner than usual. I haven't been leveling lately, so I can't attest to the experience of pugging those personally though. I just know I wouldn't expect in the way of interesting gameplay or interactions when leveling really. For LFD, since you're the tank you do get to control the flow (unless its going too fast for the healer), but yeah, its a community/people problem. People are just so willing to talk shit in chat. Ignore it in the case of LFD/LFR/random bgs since the system will replace leavers.

You can still hit a friendly macro as you join each new dungeon, but it's LFD, you can't change the community on your own really. Try the macro and report back how that works in a week.

[Sevyvia]

You're not the only one dissatisfied with the extreme rush culture, I can at least say that much. There was always the "gogogogogogogogogog guy" meme, but with M+, 95% of the community have now become that guy. It makes for a pretty toxic culture around dungeons, but it isn't a dealbreaker on its own. It's just another little thing that makes WoW worse than it could be. The more those stack up, the more dissatisfied people get, the more leave.

[potis]

Why people do mythic+ keys on a timer with speed makes sense, because of the timer. I was mostly talking about dungeons while leveling alts where there are no timers. I could have been more clear about that.

This is a completely different discussion and there is no fix for that, time cant be reset for you to magically re-experience them.

As someone above mentioned, the first time, sure, go slow and carefully, second time a bit faster, but after 15 times dont expect me to not cleave through shit.

Leveling is the same, you cant expect me to level my 10th character and pretend i dont know its strengths and speeds etc same with everyone else.

For you to actually get what you are seeking, is doing what i did, play other MMOs now and then to soak in the story/lore/dungeons in a casual way, i mostly use GW2 for that.

But dont expect the fluidity of WoW in those games.

Or you could level a character with 4 other friends that never played the game and without heirloom and go your way.

[Nachtigal]

People ruin the game for themselves, and others, by forcing the “know before you go” rule on literally every aspect of the game.
They wouldn’t admit it though, they’ve got 3 fap sessions scheduled between 3 and 4 pm that they absolutely cannot miss.

So get your shit together and learn to play, but make sure you spend hours reading class guides/notes and high-key dungeon strats before you even bother logging in. And when you’re finished, don’t forget to post on the forums about how easy the content was and demand more, because you only spent 30 minutes actually playing the game you spent hours researching. And be sure to attack Blizzard for releasing content you can’t skip or shorten, they’re just trying to steal our money.

Games were more fun back when everyone was relaxed.

[MrExcelion]

For you to actually get what you are seeking, is doing what i did, play other MMOs now and then to soak in the story/lore/dungeons in a casual way, i mostly use GW2 for that.

Yeah for sure. WoWs been out so long now, with the game being 'solved', the mentality being 'know before you go' like the above poster. Games just been out for so long that the OP isn't going to get the experience he's looking for, especially not in a leveling dungeon or any other queued content. I really did not expect the thread to be about leveling dungeons to be honest, but I still understand tanks get berated/kicked in these sorts of things.

At least the OP has mythic raiding where he can strategize all he wants outside and inside of raid hours and then focus on efficiency and execution during the alloted 12 hours a week. Can't expect that experience out of LFD.

[MasterHamster]

The game has become so rush-focused people tell you to stfu if you try to chat in dungeons. Not that strange, since communication isn't necessary. Why stop and ask what the boss does, when it'll be dead in 25 seconds anyway?

It's been a very, very long slippery slope in design but yeah, at some point the game simply devolved into clears per hour instead of methodically beating a dungeon or whatever.
Look at WQs, 99% of the effort is the travel itself, because anyone who hasn't fallen asleep can quickly kill the "elite" you're tasked to kill. And as soon as there's an objective that isn't immediately visible, you get annoyed. Waiting 30 seconds for yet another damage-sponge that deals 0 damage to respawn is enough to make people impatient.

M+ just relies on timer and that trash bar, instead of making the enemies the actual threat. The tank being disconnected or going afk is a bigger threat than any boss, when it comes to your "rewards per hour".

What WoW has gone through is like watching Divinity Original Sin turn into Diablo 3 GRifting.

Unfortunately that also means as players have left, the community has shifted.
Now talks about better balance and pacing is just met with "Why would you want it slower". A very sizeable portion of the games remaining community hasnt experienced anything else but the braindead rush design. They defend the design that means after a session of WoW, they didn't actually have any sort of satisfying gaming experience, it was just meaningless items being thrown at them, facerolling content that can't even break through their azerite shield buff.

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

You post makes no sense. And I raid mythic, so LFR is very much not interesting to me.

Your idea of "efficient" objectively doesnt make sense, pfft making sure healer use the least amount of mana, you might as well tell them to afk.

That's something LFR hero would say, we all know maximizing CD and resource usage is the way for non-grandma.

Stop pretending.

[Jastall]

If one is talking about leveling content, then sorry but there's no way to make 15 years old content at all interesting when slowed down outside of people with a certain mindset- Classic's waiting for them in a bit more than a month, but when I queue for Dire Maul I sure as hell don't want it to be the slog it used to be in vanilla. Not when I have 119 levels of leveling to go through.

If one is talking about M+, welcome to its intended design. The timer is like the enrage of a raid boss, it's not a race against time per se and more there to prevent excessive cheesing and gear check you a bit. The timer should never be an issue unless 1) you wipe a lot and thus deserve to fail, 2) take a truly excessive amount of time, and I mean waiting like 30 seconds between packs for the lulz of it or 3) have wholly insufficient DPS which is likely to kill you dead with Beguiling on anyway. And it's not like an Enrage which kills you, finishing overtime still rewards loot in both your endrun and weekly chest.

If your dungeons are mass AoE fests, then you are running keys too low for you. As a Mythic raider, I don't apply for Normal/queue for LFR and complain that the group is uncoordinated or people are doing low DPS. Same shit here.

[Kralljin]

The game has become so rush-focused people tell you to stfu if you try to chat in dungeons.

Because people wanted shorter dungeons.

Let's be honest, the Vanilla dungeon design was a one of a time thing in WoW, even TBC already had very streamlined dungeons, the only thing holding you back was the fact that overall combat was still slow paced due most dps being unable to do AoE dps and tanks being unable to do AoE threat.

Next to that, there is no room to "chatting" anymore, previously, if you wiped and did a corpse run...well, there was nothing you could but possibly chat with other people.
Now you spawn directly at the instance and are back in the action at least one minute later.

Doing a bit of different shit within a ~2 hour activity is fine, going "offtopic" in a 20min activity is a different story.

[Tesshin20]

People has been speedrunning things since Classic, OP.

I'm sure there are others with you mindset. You just need to reach out.

Quite aware. But that was a niche thing back then. It was not the standard way of doing dungeons. And you didn't get votekicked for being a bit slow. Actually in classic I remember people get flamed for quite the opposite, like breaking a CC.

[Lochton]

Short answer: Yes you are wrong.

Long answer: The game has changed, either get with the flow/get better at it or unsub, and now the answer can actually be "Play Classic".

Overall, your level of play sounds low,there was never a period where "You didnt skip mobs" and "You CCed everything", even in Vanilla you skipped half the dungeon if you could, LBRS/DM North as example.

Sure, when we yoloed with just leveled greens in some cases we would wipe cause we didnt know what some ability did and we might CC that mob but generally, no the better you become, the less of that is required and some people simply dont get it.

The experience of someone around capable people and the experience of someone that takes 4 hours to complete a dungeon is vastly different.

Also it depends on what kind of content you are talking about.

Even the first day, running around in greens, there isnt anything in the game thats not cleavable and requires CC, they same way in Legion we did all Mythic dungeons the second day with 805 item level, and the same way in BFA, we did all the dungeons in 305-310, the level of play is simply different.

Except this mentallity is going to be projected to classic too, just look at the sub forum.

[Sensa1]

I basically agree with the OP...started as a Raiding Resto Shaman in Vanilla...eventually had 5 toons...post Wrath, where the go-go mindset started (about mid-expansion) I started enjoy healing less and less with each expansion to the point that I didn't even level my Shaman in Legion (and in BFA 1 max level toon was enough for me).

Let's face it, excluding M+ and top level raiding, it's only the tanks and healers who have to really pay attention in dungeons etc. Constantly being badgered by dpsers only concerned about topping meters and who can't be bothered to get out fire, in most instances, to go faster all the time gets old very fast.

Even though today's healers have pretty much infinite mana pools and don't have to drink after every pull all that constant rushing while running dungeons etc just burnt me out and wasn't fun at all.

There were a lot of moments in Vanilla (long flight paths, slow mounts, large zones, limited FP's and finite mana - drink after pulls / limited resource pools - arrows / shards etc) that allowed you to take a mindless breather in game. When I was playing long sessions back in the day those long flights gave me time to get up from the computer and clear my head, stretch my body etc. While most complained about almost all the things I just mentioned I actually appreciated them as mini concentration breaks from the game.

Since everything was slower there was also more communication / relationship building / joking etc during a dungeon run etc.

I don't like wasting time more than anyone else and will take a shortcut in a dungeon or try to skip a trash pack (if I'm with a good group) but I definitely enjoyed the slower overall pace of Vanilla gameplay by a long shot over today's go-go-go approach. It's another reason I'm looking forward to Vanilla and I may yet heal again as a result.

[A Chozo]

Quite aware. But that was a niche thing back then. It was not the standard way of doing dungeons. And you didn't get votekicked for being a bit slow. Actually in classic I remember people get flamed for quite the opposite, like breaking a CC.

Yeah you'r right.

As with any old/retro game, speedrunning stuff became the norm even in the easier levels of the game. But the community (both WoW's and Online's) has gotten bigger and worse. WoW keeps changing, but the basic combat formula is still the same - that makes it easier to know the game for everyone. So, I suggest you find a group of people who shares your desire to not speedrun eveything they can. I'm sure there are more like you.

Or even a different game.

[Flurryfang]

I like doing dungeons or any team oriented play. And over the years the way people play has changed so much while I remained the same since 2005.

I play for strategy. I keeps me enganged with the content. I like to approach packs of mobs figuring out the best way to kill it in a way that is efficient. Having mobs that do different abilities makes it interesting.

Well. All the above you can throw out the window when I do the regular pug groups. Everything is abour rushing, skipping and in general avoid as much of the content as possible in the fastest amount of time.

Tanking for me is almost impossible. Even if I leap into a pack and we aoe it down and I pull next pack when its dead its still way too slow for some people.

For someone that enjoys vanilla and tbc style with ccing specific mobs and everyone nuking the same targer, aoeing everything and rushing makes it experience very dull for me. Trying to tank I find it very annoying that some dps in the group always runs ahead pull new packs while figthting a pack then blames me for dying and votekick me.

I know my way of playing is a minority so I always just accept it and follow the stream. But I don't find it enganging and I would hope it would change when mythic plus was released. But putting a timer on it makes it worse.

Skipping packs for me is the same as skipping parts of a movie. Makes no sense to me. When people want to pull 3 packs and just AOE everything they make the dungeon irrelevant. Since you avoid any strategy the mobs could be named Target 1, Target 2 etc and all just have a basic attack. No one would even notice. I think its very sad.

The question is whats your opinion on the matter, is there a community for us who likes to do things "properly"? , am I getting too old for anything in this game thats not singleplayer? (I am 36).

I think you are unlucky with most of the M+ groups out there In my experience, most of the dungeons are designed for you not to really skip packs unless they are really hard, or else you won't get the needed clear %. Also, i get it when it comes to low M+ and normal dungeons, but in raiding, im not really seeing this speed mentality. In many relaxed guilds, that i have been a part of, taking it slow and easy is the normal attitude when clearing normal and heroic. People might not be the best players, but they kill bosses with time and it is in a nice calming pace with no rush. I would recommend seeking out these guilds and be part of a more relaxed player experience.

That said, mythic+, especially when people are trying to push, is just designed for fast movement and there is no way to get around it. The faster you do things, the more room there is for making mistakes and that can often have a calming effect aswell.

So no, i would not say you are too old for this game. You just have to be more of seeker when finding the raid play-crowd.

[Tesshin20]

Many good answers. And its nice to see that many people agree with the way a view this issue.

When it comes to "Why do it slow when you can do it fast" For me personally doing a dungeon when you don't even engage with the mobs abilities doesn't mean anything. Its very boring. And I think its possible to do a dungeon even for the 30th time because its fun to use all your class abilities, especially utility abilities.

But I guess if you only see dungeons as an obstacle to a end you want to reach, then of course you want to get it over with. I don't view it that way, as I mostly only do content because I like the content itself.

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I think you are unlucky with most of the M+ groups out there In my experience, most of the dungeons are designed for you not to really skip packs unless they are really hard, or else you won't get the needed clear %. Also, i get it when it comes to low M+ and normal dungeons, but in raiding, im not really seeing this speed mentality. In many relaxed guilds, that i have been a part of, taking it slow and easy is the normal attitude when clearing normal and heroic. People might not be the best players, but they kill bosses with time and it is in a nice calming pace with no rush. I would recommend seeking out these guilds and be part of a more relaxed player experience.

That said, mythic+, especially when people are trying to push, is just designed for fast movement and there is no way to get around it. The faster you do things, the more room there is for making mistakes and that can often have a calming effect aswell.

So no, i would not say you are too old for this game. You just have to be more of seeker when finding the raid play-crowd.

Not talking about Mythic+. I only do them with guildies.

[tikcol]

I agree with you on this. The problem is that Blizz takes the easy way out on a lot of design decisions. "Just slap a timer on it" is an easy way to make an encounter challenging without having to actual design challenge into the encounter.

I actually saw a post in another thread on this where a poster basically said "but how would you make it challenging without a timer?" They literally did not even realize that there are other ways to make encounters challenging without slapping a timer on it.

I would love to see some mythic plus dungeons that did not have a timer but had other aspects that were challenging to it. Maybe to get all the chests- you can't die and have to kill all the mobs. The packs could be designed so that is very difficult. There could be other challenges built into the dungeon to complete as well. I think some dungeons like that would be great.

The only problem is, that takes a lot more work and thought than- "just slap a timer on it."

That's the whole story of Warcraft though. They had 13 million subs at one point. That means, on subs alone- the game was bringing in 195 million dollars a month. They came up with a great model that everyone loved- Hard modes in Ulduar (that had to be triggered during the game). They basically came out and admitted that it was too much work to do it like that and they were moving to just having you select difficulty. They had 195 million a month- they had plenty of resources to do it, they just decided to be lazy. That lazy has echoed throughout the game in many decisions- using the same end game model each and every time for years and years and years....., making systems giving abilities that players love- then just taking it away (not bothering to come up with a real solution that players would like).

That's why they are at 1- 1.5 million subs now. Its not really a mystery- it was their choice.

You can also, you know.. ignore the timer altogether. You still get your loot at the end of the dungeon and at the end of the week. The only progression you have in m+ is doing it proficiently enough that you can go try the next level. I remember seeing lots of groups with "ignoring timer" in the title in the start of the expansion (I'm not subbed anymore).

If people like to lie to themselves though, that's another issue. There's nothing stopping anyone right now from creating their slow paced groups and roleplaying through a m10-15 while taking 5 hours to complete it.