Trump ICE raids start today: Where do you stand?

[Jutath]

They are enforcing the immigration laws by arresting those who are here illegally. Someone needs to do it since Congress is failing to address the problem. This time however, they are focusing on illegal immigrant criminals. I have no issues with Federal authorized agencies doing their jobs as long as they themselves follow the laws.

Specifically targeting individuals that have final orders of deportation against them.

[Daelak]

I made it that far. Tell that to all the people that have fallen victim to crimes committed by illegal aliens. But you don't want to hear the reality of what's going on, and I understand that. Sadly this issue is being framed as one of compassion or morality so the far left politicians can rile up an emotional response from the uneducated masses.

Let's imagine what kind of police state hellhole would need to be created to ensure no person could cross into over 4000 miles of border. Conservative braintrusts don't realize that people trekking hundreds/thousands of miles shows how integrally tied our economy is to immigration over both the short and long term time horizons. Policies that isolate and reduce the literal lifeblood of our economy will ensure we become a backwater nation that human beings will risk life and limb to leave.

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Hmm after some googling seems there have been a number of people victims because of the result of identity thief from Illegal Immigrants using stolen SS numbers so not completely victimless.
was just one of the first one I found.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/22562690/n...dentity-theft/

was one example where a person applied at a target but was denied because they already worked there (a Illegal using their SS number)

*more examples https://whdh.com/news/10-illegal-imm...investigation/

That has nothing to do with crossing the border. Are you suggesting we turn into a veritable police state that pushes to ensure that there's zero crime?

[Dadwen]

Let's imagine what kind of police state hellhole would need to be created to ensure no person could cross into over 4000 miles of border. Conservative braintrusts don't realize that people trekking hundreds/thousands of miles shows how integrally tied our economy is to immigration over both the short and long term time horizons. Policies that isolate and reduce the literal lifeblood of our economy will ensure we become a backwater nation that human beings will risk life and limb to leave.

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That has nothing to do with crossing the border. Are you suggesting we turn into a veritable police state that pushes to ensure that there's zero crime?

No I'm suggesting people don't promote and protect something\someones that helps creates a major market for stealing and selling people's SS#/ID's.

If we didn't have that volume crossing the border "undocumented" do you really think there would be any sizable market for Stolen id's (especially from poorer people that have less to electronically steal from).

[Daelak]

No I'm suggesting people don't promote and protect something\someones that helps creates a major market for stealing and selling people's SS#/ID's.

If we didn't have that volume crossing the border "undocumented" do you really think there would be any sizable market for Stolen id's (especially from poorer people that have less to electronically steal from).

Which is why amnesty would not only be an incredible boon for local, state, and federal law enforcement fighting fraud and trafficking, but it would become an immediate economic boost, because now all the Mexican and Central American immigrants could deposit their cash into banks and start building their credit and purchasing real estate.

[Dadwen]

Which is why amnesty would not only be an incredible boon for local, state, and federal law enforcement fighting fraud and trafficking, but it would become an immediate economic boost, because now all the Mexican and Central American immigrants could deposit their cash into banks and start building their credit and purchasing real estate.

So work for that I really don't care, but up till then quit saying there are no victims of all those coming across the border, they are responsible for a quite a number of identity thief's directly or indirectly.

[Daelak]

So work for that I really don't care, but up till then quit saying there are no victims of all those coming across the border, they are responsible for a quite a number of identity thief's directly or indirectly.

I would guarantee you that legal residents and citizens are far more of a threat to SS fraud or identity theft, with foreign hackers in Russia and China making up for the lion's share of those two criminal acts. So the point still stands, immigrants risking life and limb to this country should be processed and put on a pathway to citizenship, because without them, our national security, our quality of life will all suffer over the long term due to the simple fact of not achieving the replacement rates necessary to achieve long term economic growth and workforce participation.

[Dadwen]

I would guarantee you that legal residents and citizens are far more of a threat to SS fraud or identity theft, with foreign hackers in Russia and China making up for the lion's share of those two criminal acts. So the point still stands, immigrants risking life and limb to this country should be processed and put on a pathway to citizenship, because without them, our national security, our quality of life will all suffer over the long term due to the simple fact of not achieving the replacement rates necessary to achieve long term economic growth and workforce participation.

So go after all those too but you honestly believe there would be a big as market as there is for Stolen ID (especial those of Kids and the Poorer people) if not for those looking for working SS#.

Again work towards whatever change you want, till then don't let crap slide that hurts everyday people and makes their life tougher. *honestly all this cheap labor probably just keeps a ton of jobs from getting replaced by automation faster as it should be and holds us back somewhat.

*Personally I think anyone using a fake SS# knowingly should be kicked out and no future chances for citizenship.

[Felya]

So go after all those too but you honestly believe there would be a big as market as there is for Stolen ID (especial those of Kids and the Poorer people) if not for those looking for working SS#.

You don’t need a SS# to get paid less than a minimum wage. Most illegals work jobs where if they did present a SS#, their employer would be in trouble for not paying the federally mandated minimum wage.

[Dadwen]

You don’t need a SS# to get paid less than a minimum wage. Most illegals work jobs where if they did present a SS#, their employer would be in trouble for not paying the federally mandated minimum wage.

Not worried about those then as much was I, (I said awhile back those not using one should be giving a consideration), but as the examples I posted (links) there are also a number that do use them, and in doing so creates a larger market for them, end result more victims of identity theft any which way you stack it..

[Felya]

Not worried about those then as much was I, (I said awhile back those not using one should be giving a consideration), but as the examples I posted (links) there are also a number that do use them, and in doing so creates a larger market for them, end result more victims of identity theft any which way you stack it..

It doesn’t create a larger market, because stealing SS numbers is most commonly to open bank and credit card accounts. It’s not to get jobs by illegals... The only people it would help are those over staying visas, not those running across the border. Picking fruit and washing dishes, does not need a social.

[Grapemask]

So go after all those too but you honestly believe there would be a big as market as there is for Stolen ID (especial those of Kids and the Poorer people) if not for those looking for working SS#.

Again work towards whatever change you want, till then don't let crap slide that hurts everyday people and makes their life tougher. *honestly all this cheap labor probably just keeps a ton of jobs from getting replaced by automation faster as it should be and holds us back somewhat.

*Personally I think anyone using a fake SS# knowingly should be kicked out and no future chances for citizenship.

There's a difference between how illegals use social security numbers and fraudsters use them, though. Immigrants use them almost exclusively to pay taxes - because of how our ID systems work, it's pretty hard to use it to get a "gain" without other supporting documentation that an illegal immigrant wouldn't have. In cases where an immigrant's stolen social security number is also attached to fraudulent financial activity, it's usually because the number has been sold to multiple users and those other uses are committing that crime. In general, immigrants commit less crime, especially federal crime, because crime brings unwanted attention and scrutiny especially to people who are not white.

The alternative is that they could not use a number and therefore not pay taxes, but then that would give conservatives a whole new thing to cry about. We could make legal immigration easier, but it turns out conservatives cry about that, too. It turns out conservatives cry about literally every solution that involves non-whites stepping into the country, be it legally or not.

[Candiman]

Here's the the thing. The original claim was that the physical act of crossing the border was a victimless crime. To supposedly dispute this claim all this crap about SS# has been brought into the thread but not one thing has been said that actually disputes the original claim.

[Cthulhu 2020]

I thought these were announced long before Epstein was arrested?
As for the people saying that we need these people so our country has enough workers: we need them just like we needed slaves to keep our country running. If we abolished slavery how can we get enough workers to harvest our crops??? I’ve got it! Illegal workers who we can treat like slaves because they know we could tell the government where they are!

I get it, you want to make a false equivalence between slave labor and slave-wage labor. Problem is, you're way off base, and this isn't really a defense for mass deportations in any way.

Alabama passed a heavy handed anti-illegal immigrant law awhile back and several of their economies crashed. There were no maids to clean hotel rooms, there were no field hands to pick crops. They put out hiring notifications and nobody wanted these jobs. They brought in prison workers and the prison workers just stood around and dicked off because the work was "too hard".

I'm not FOR illegal immigrants working for slave wages. I'm for supporting America and American interests. Amnesty is one option. Part time worker visas while these people work towards citizenship is another. Spending federal dollars so that "REAL AMERICANS" get paid more to do these shit jobs is another, but that would involve raising taxes on the wealthy and/or blowing another hole in the budget. There's a lot of potential solutions to these problems. You know what isn't a solution? Mass deportation. You know what isn't a solution? Keeping things as they are.

So before you go making false equivalencies between Democrats wanting to keep slave wage labor in the country, just know that this is the position of most Democrats when it comes to propping up failed red states and their crappy economies.

[Has lost its way]

Here's the the thing. The original claim was that the physical act of crossing the border was a victimless crime. To supposedly dispute this claim all this crap about SS# has been brought into the thread but not one thing has been said that actually disputes the original claim.

It is only a victim less crime in a world of endless resources that are easily obtainable. Each unskilled worker that crosses illegally contributes to stagnate wages and lowered living conditions to the already worst of society.

We do not have enough meaningful employment for our own citizens to make a living wage. Adding to that with a group who will work under the minimum wage makes there circumstances worse.

All that is ignoring the very real possibility and inevitability of increased crime.

[Candiman]

It is only a victim less crime in a world of endless resources that are easily obtainable. Each unskilled worker that crosses illegally contributes to stagnate wages and lowered living conditions to the already worst of society.

We do not have enough meaningful employment for our own citizens to make a living wage. Adding to that with a group who will work under the minimum wage makes there circumstances worse.

All that is ignoring the very real possibility and inevitability of increased crime.

Again you miss the point. That does not happen by the physical act of crossing the border that happens by taking a low paying job after crossing the border. Again the physical act of crossing the border is a victimless crime.

[Ooid]

I get it, you want to make a false equivalence between slave labor and slave-wage labor. Problem is, you're way off base, and this isn't really a defense for mass deportations in any way.

Alabama passed a heavy handed anti-illegal immigrant law awhile back and several of their economies crashed. There were no maids to clean hotel rooms, there were no field hands to pick crops. They put out hiring notifications and nobody wanted these jobs. They brought in prison workers and the prison workers just stood around and dicked off because the work was "too hard".

I'm not FOR illegal immigrants working for slave wages. I'm for supporting America and American interests. Amnesty is one option. Part time worker visas while these people work towards citizenship is another. Spending federal dollars so that "REAL AMERICANS" get paid more to do these shit jobs is another, but that would involve raising taxes on the wealthy and/or blowing another hole in the budget. There's a lot of potential solutions to these problems. You know what isn't a solution? Mass deportation. You know what isn't a solution? Keeping things as they are.

So before you go making false equivalencies between Democrats wanting to keep slave wage labor in the country, just know that this is the position of most Democrats when it comes to propping up failed red states and their crappy economies.

I never specified a political party but ok. It was a dig at the business owners who hire them.
You’re right though it isn’t an defense for deportation. I was under the impression that the threat of enforcing our laws and kicking them out was supposed to be a deterrent and a start to getting our immigration problems under control. I think they should be working on redoing our laws at the same time but the whole immigration topic will be a toxic political topic for the foreseeable future. Both sides have dug in their heels and neither will budge.
As for the people already here have no right to be. They’ve broken the law. If they wanted asylum there is already a process for that. I’m not just talking about the people coming from south of the border but the ones who have overstayed their visas too.

[Grapemask]

All that is ignoring the very real possibility and inevitability of increased crime.

We already know undocumented aliens have a lower crime rate than citizens.

[SirBeef]

So basically a bunch of emotional crap that has nothing to do with what I said.

The emotional crap is the clutching at fucking pearls conservatives and the like do when it comes to immigrant crimes committed upon citizens. Yet boo is said when it is done far more often and with greater frequency by actual citizens against citizens.

[Has lost its way]

Again you miss the point. That does not happen by the physical act of crossing the border that happens by taking a low paying job after crossing the border. Again the physical act of crossing the border is a victimless crime.

Firing a gun doesn't kill a person the bullet impacting them does...

Not really a winning argument.

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We already know undocumented aliens have a lower crime rate than citizens.

We know that how exactly?

[Dadwen]

The emotional crap is the clutching at fucking pearls conservatives and the like do when it comes to immigrant crimes committed upon citizens. Yet boo is said when it is done far more often and with greater frequency by actual citizens against citizens.

really boo huh, keep telling yourself that BS if it helps you sleep at nite, I rather dislike any normal person taken advantage of and, it's even worse when the system that in in place to protect them, protects the ones that caused the harm against them in the first place.

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It doesn’t create a larger market, because stealing SS numbers is most commonly to open bank and credit card accounts. It’s not to get jobs by illegals... The only people it would help are those over staying visas, not those running across the border. Picking fruit and washing dishes, does not need a social.

And you have proof of this, I posted some examples of what I was talking about illegals using false SS# and ID's at least to back it up, feel free to share yours.