8.2 Balance Updates?

[Donimic]

Welp, it's The Eternal Palace Opening Day (mythic), the day we usually get the entire tier's balancing patch... and the only thing to come through is a 6% buff for arcane.

I think this is the final straw to convince me that blizzard has fully gone "IDGAF" with this game. Don't get me wrong, while I have been less than enthusiastic with where they have taken BFA, but overall I have still enjoyed my place in raids/M+. But to take a look at the current state of the game, particularly class balance, and think "Nope, no changes needed. We have done a great job." is absolutely ludicrous. What the heck is going on over there?

[styil]

I'm hoping it's a sign that they've completely given up on BFA classes and are fully committing to 9.0 class design

[Marrilaife]

90% of their changes are pvp nerfs. Shows what do they care about in this game.

[Donimic]

I'm hoping it's a sign that they've completely given up on BFA classes and are fully committing to 9.0 class design

Even if they are putting their effort into 9.0 it means we would have to put up for a another full year without even a semblance balance.

[Tech614]

I mean this is literally how it's been since legion. If there isn't balance changes made before mythic unlocks it's simply not gonna happen outside of putting small band aids on super under performing specs with tiny 1% buffs here and there.

[Donimic]

I mean this is literally how it's been since legion. If there isn't balance changes made before mythic unlocks it's simply not gonna happen outside of putting small band aids on super under performing specs with tiny 1% buffs here and there.

That's the point. We were expecting a fairly sizable balance patch today and they didn't do shit.

[Tech614]

That's the point. We were expecting a fairly sizable balance patch today and they didn't do shit.

That's the point. You where expecting wrong.

No where did they ever say there would be a big balance pass before mythic unlocked. Prime example of expecting something to happen no one ever said would happen.

Plenty of mythic unlocks have come without major changes. ToS, BoD and Uldir all had basically nothing on the weeks mythic unlocks. Expecting it like a certainty to happen is just lol.

[Varolyn]

The essence system pretty much killed any chance of real balance happening through the rest of BFA. They are literal nukes (well, some of them are) that were added in to help tide players over until BFA ends. As a poster implied over me, blizz is likely focusing a lot of efforts in whatever 9.0 is, hopefully for the better.

[God Save The King]

Checking the logs so far, it seems that the classes are pretty well balanced across heroic Eternal Palace.

The lowest performing class, Paladin, is sitting at 27,827 dps at the 75th percentile. The top performing class is Priest sitting at 31,956. I agree that Priests are a bit too high looking at the distribution curve, and could stand a 3-4% nerf. If we overlook the outlier, the top class is Rogue - Outlaw. The delta between paladin and priest is 13%. The delta between paladin and rogue is 7.8%.

Historically, those numbers are very good. A small nerf to shadow priests and you'd end up with one of the most balanced tiers ever.

Sounds like the standard case of patch-day blues where you realize your class is not the flavor of the month! Just remember that there always has to be a class at the top and the bottom. It doesn't matter where you are so long as the delta is tight (sub 10%). It really comes down to gear fluctuations and skill at that point!

[Video Games]

Arcane is still awful so nobody is going to play it still.

[Nitros14]

Arcane is still awful so nobody is going to play it still.

I see no problem with a 6% buff to a spec that was 25% behind.

Turns out being a turret spec that can't effectively cleave, damage while moving or aoe without sitting in melee range isn't actually good.

[Biomega]

It's such a shame that class design is so shit, because the raid fights are actually quite well done. Of course we're only starting with this tier, but on normal/heroic at least I've found most fights to be excellently designed. The only boring fight, really, is Radiance.

[styil]

The bottom 5 specs for Blackwater Behemoth with an average DPS of 18,870 when the top 5 DPS are doing 21.4% more damage at an average of 22,799:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...ty=4&boss=2289

The bottom 5 specs for Za'qul with an average DPS of 38,771 when the top 5 DPS (even excluding shadow here) are doing 24.7% more damage at an average of 48,349:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...ty=4&boss=2293

The bottom 5 specs for Queen's Court with an average DPS of 24,730 when the top 5 DPS are doing 29.8% more damage at an average of 32,106:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...ty=4&boss=2311

I could go on, but I think the point has been made by now. Balance this tier is the worst it has been in quite a while, and nothing is being done about it.

[Tehterokkar]

Balance updates usually come a week after mythic has been out.

Secondly, usually people complain because there are balance updates... so this thread is pretty amusing.

Balance updates come out have always come out at the end of the heroic week, for a few expansions now. Balance updates came, 6% Arcane buff, and Shadow Priests and Warlocks weren't touched.

[Bisso]

The bottom 5 specs for Blackwater Behemoth with an average DPS of 18,870 when the top 5 DPS are doing 21.4% more damage at an average of 22,799:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...ty=4&boss=2289

The bottom 5 specs for Za'qul with an average DPS of 38,771 when the top 5 DPS (even excluding shadow here) are doing 24.7% more damage at an average of 48,349:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...ty=4&boss=2293

The bottom 5 specs for Queen's Court with an average DPS of 24,730 when the top 5 DPS are doing 29.8% more damage at an average of 32,106:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...ty=4&boss=2311

I could go on, but I think the point has been made by now. Balance this tier is the worst it has been in quite a while, and nothing is being done about it.

Those 5 top dps look different on every fight. And look at the # of parses. Some of the bottom specs have under 100 parses. Might as well not count them at all.

[Toby451]

The bottom 5 specs for Blackwater Behemoth with an average DPS of 18,870 when the top 5 DPS are doing 21.4% more damage at an average of 22,799:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...ty=4&boss=2289

The bottom 5 specs for Za'qul with an average DPS of 38,771 when the top 5 DPS (even excluding shadow here) are doing 24.7% more damage at an average of 48,349:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...ty=4&boss=2293

The bottom 5 specs for Queen's Court with an average DPS of 24,730 when the top 5 DPS are doing 29.8% more damage at an average of 32,106:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...ty=4&boss=2311

I could go on, but I think the point has been made by now. Balance this tier is the worst it has been in quite a while, and nothing is being done about it.

Sorry, but this is an absolutely terrible way to judge overall balance. You are using the most extreme examples of a spec being weak in a particular role and comparing it to another class that excels in that same role.


https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...7&difficulty=4



That is a far more realistic view of class balance, and to be honest, that is pretty damn good. Asking for, and even expecting 100% perfectly balanced dps any given tier has never happened in the history of this (or any) game and will N-E-V-E-R happen.


Arcane needed some help, which they got. Shadow priest in particular could probably use a small nerf but pretty much everything else is well within the "close enough" range where getting upset over "unbalanced classes" makes you look like a complete moron. This entire thread reeks of players blaming their class/spec being terrible for their under performance in the new raid instead of looking at themselves and trying to figure out what they are doing wrong.

[styil]

Those 5 top dps look different on every fight. And look at the # of parses. Some of the bottom specs have under 100 parses. Might as well not count them at all.

That's irrelevant. Every spec does every encounter, being 29% better than others in one fight then 29% worse in another is not balance.

Sorry, but this is an absolutely terrible way to judge overall balance. You are using the most extreme examples of a spec being weak in a particular role and comparing it to another class that excels in that same role.


https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...7&difficulty=4



That is a far more realistic view of class balance, and to be honest, that is pretty damn good. Asking for, and even expecting 100% perfectly balanced dps any given tier has never happened in the history of this (or any) game and will N-E-V-E-R happen.


Arcane needed some help, which they got. Shadow priest in particular could probably use a small nerf but pretty much everything else is well within the "close enough" range where getting upset over "unbalanced classes" makes you look like a complete moron. This entire thread reeks of players blaming their class/spec being terrible for their under performance in the new raid instead of looking at themselves and trying to figure out what they are doing wrong.

It's all the same role: damage. There is no justifying these enormous variances in damage. No specs should be upwards of 29% more than others even if that is their niche.

[Keltas]

Checking the logs so far, it seems that the classes are pretty well balanced across heroic Eternal Palace.

The lowest performing class, Paladin, is sitting at 27,827 dps at the 75th percentile. The top performing class is Priest sitting at 31,956. I agree that Priests are a bit too high looking at the distribution curve, and could stand a 3-4% nerf. If we overlook the outlier, the top class is Rogue - Outlaw. The delta between paladin and priest is 13%. The delta between paladin and rogue is 7.8%.

Historically, those numbers are very good. A small nerf to shadow priests and you'd end up with one of the most balanced tiers ever.

Sounds like the standard case of patch-day blues where you realize your class is not the flavor of the month! Just remember that there always has to be a class at the top and the bottom. It doesn't matter where you are so long as the delta is tight (sub 10%). It really comes down to gear fluctuations and skill at that point!

I think it's a little unfair to say enhancement is able to freely just go elemental, because they share absolutely none of the same gear, secondary stats, or role in a raid. So I'd say enhance is the lowest (although that only adds 1-2%).

But the real problem they seem to be ignoring with balance this expansion is AoE balancing. There are a ton of small tuning changes they could do to so many specs to make them 10x more useful in a M+, without hurting where they are in a raid.

ex. Starfall could use an 80%+ damage increase. wouldn't buff them ST or on most raid fights, but would make them infinitely more desirable in a M+ and wouldn't even make them OP. Same with enhance, buff crash lightning by like 100% and it's suddenly a real spec in dungeons. Make MM hunters trick shot activate at 2 targets instead of 3 and boom, another much better spec for no real changes.

It bothers me that so many people in this thread argue purely about raid dps (and basically ST) and nobody seems to care that some specs are just complete garbage in a dungeon. AoE balancing is easily 50-200% differences between specs for no real reason.

[schwarzkopf]

Arcane is still awful so nobody is going to play it still.

Arcane is just a different playstyle ... requires forward planning and not reactions. I love it and have played it since day 1.

Your rotation and spell casting changes on a per boss basis - no simple 'follow the boring pattern' for arcane.

[Deiae]

(...) This entire thread reeks of players blaming their class/spec being terrible for their under performance in the new raid instead of looking at themselves and trying to figure out what they are doing wrong.

They know what they are doing wrong - they are playing the wrong spec or class.