RNGforging doesn't work the way Blizzard intended

[Jeina]

The thing is that no one benefits from RNGforging. It doesn't actually make raids more replayable like I already outlined in my original post. I'd even argue that RNGforging is toxic for the casuals too because it encourages them to keep farming easy content for RNGforged procs instead of moving up to the next level of difficulty e.g. LFR to normal, normal to heroic. What's the point of trying to tackle harder content if you already outgear it and it offers literally >nothing< in terms of tangible rewards?

It benefits me.

Not everyone chases gear.

Casuals don't do Normal/Heroic/Mythic b/c they don't have the time/interest.

[Marrilaife]

It also means you have questionable taste, because you played WoW through content gaps and some of WoD.

Why wouldn't I play in WOD, when garrison was making me tons of gold, professions were making me another ton of gold, I could play multiple alts and raid on them without having to ap grind, only gate was legendary questline and it was 10x less of an issue than getting legiondaries or bfa essences. All WOD was missing for me was a middle raid tier between BRF and HFC (the rumoured to be cut Shattrath raid).

I didn't mind end of expansion content gaps like in wotlk or mop because I could catch up with all the achievements / collectibles I missed during the busy period.

Then came the design model that shat on everything I loved in this game for 12+ years and told me the game is now about neverending WQ grind. If I wanted to grind stupid world events I would have stayed in Guild Wars 2 and quit WOW.

Feels like going for 10+ years to the same favourite indian restaurant only to see them one day transformed into mcdonalds and telling you indian food is passe, we're serving burgers now and you better move on with the times and start liking burgers, or else. Feels even worse when we go with this analogy thinking there was already 5+ burger fast food points in the vicinity and it was the last indian food spot.

[Arainie]

I've kept arguing for a warforge system where items can warforge 10 ilvls from anywhere, but also be upgraded for the same 10 ilvls with raid/dungeon/world currency depending on the origin of the items. Basically, warforging would simply allow you to skip the upgrade part, and upgrading would bridge the gap between the lucky and the unlucky. Sockets should be tied to specific items (my suggestion would be to provide sockets on all azerite items as they would have less of an impact on the item strength than they currently do on rings, boots, belt and wrists) and not random what so ever.

This would also ensure that players could slowly progress from their current difficulty to a higher difficulty with time as everyone would all have access to upgraded gear eventually, but none of the upgraded gear would be more powerful than baseline gear from a higher content difficulty.

[Tumile]

No, it really doesn`t. It just emphasizes the fact you`d be bored with the game no matter what.

that is utter bull, and you know it. plenty of people have played for 15 years and are still enjoying it, hell I've played for more than 15 years and I'm still loving the game! not the trash that is BFA, but Private servers. Game is still great 15 years later <3 so many ppl loved legion who had played wow for 14 years, so is there like a certain threshold that we reach at 15 years that makes everyone hate BFA? or maybe it's just a terrible expansion? which one seems more likely to you? Stop being condescneding when you're infact a clueless bonobo.

[Wilfire]

The game had more players when titanforging didn't exist.

There's a certain trade-off between casualization and player count. When you have a gearing system that's so exclusive that casuals have no chance to keep up, it discourages them and makes them eventually drop the game. Casualization fixes this problem but only to an extent. After a point, gear starts raining like candy and now hardcores have it more difficult because they have to farm gear outside of raids to keep up. Push things in this direction far enough and hardcores will say fuck it and quit the game. Blizzard struck the golden ratio between casuals and hardcores in WotLK but then they saw that casualization caused a rise in subscriber numbers and kept pushing casualization further. Eventually with shit like mandatory dailies in MoP etc. hardcores started quitting. Blizzard's response? Even more casualization.

But they ended up losing subscribers because at that point further casualization didn't attract additional players but instead made hardcores drop the game. Blizzard never learned their lesson.

[PelinalWhitestrake]

I can't find the exact quote but around the time Throne of Thunder was current content, Blizzard stated that the intended purpose of the RNGforging system (thunderforging back then) was to make raids more replayable. In other words Blizzard thought that people felt bad about farming raids knowing that they couldn't get any upgrades from bosses x, y and z etc. if they already had BiS from those bosses. But did RNGforging accomplish its intended purpose?

Nope. It didn't.

By tying sockets to the RNGforging system, Blizzard resigned themselves to making RNGforging procs common lest jewelcrafters go out of business. Therein lies the problem.

If RNGforging procs are common, by the time you go from heroic into mythic you already have RNGforged heroic pieces that are better than baseline mythic pieces. Here's what Blizzard intended for the gear progression system to be like:

baseline heroic gear < RNGforged heroic gear < baseline mythic gear < RNGforged mythic gear

Here's what it actually lookes like:

baseline heroic gear < RNGforged heroic gear >= baseline mythic gear < RNGforged mythic gear

In some cases RNGforged heroic gear is even BETTER than RNGforged mythic gear thanks to the randomness of the system.

In essence you are SKIPPING the step where you go into mythic and are excited to kill new bosses because their baseline drops are upgrades for you. You go in already praying for RNGforged procs. But since RNGforged procs are so common you start getting showered in RNGforged mythic loot right away. Replayability is not improved.

In other words, the whole RNGforged system is completely pointless from a design viewpoint and serves only to frustrate people with bad RNG.

Solution?
a. untie sockets from the RNGforged system and make RNGforged pieces a lot more rare so that RNGforged procs are big "OOMPH" moments rather than "meh".
b. cap RNGforged for various difficulties so that heroic gear is never better than mythic gear.
c. scrap the whole stupid and pointless system. No one asked for more replayable raids. Non-hardcore raiders are barely done progressing the final boss by the time the new raid rolls out. Hardcore raiders would like to take a break until the next tier instead of farming. RNGforging is a pointless solution to a nonexistent problem.

Its Working as they intended, they want us the "cattle" continue playing and farming gear until their half assed RNG rewards us with the BIS gear.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

I always wonder when I read someone say "from a design viewpoint" what the person's credentials are to suggest something so definitive.

I love this logic fallacy the best. So deliciously hypocritical, too.

As in yours, by the way, not the people you're trying to mock.

(And on that note, please tell me what creditials are required in your make-believe land of unreality? Or what, do you think game designers have doctorates from Harvard on MMO Game Design as well as being a licensed Psychiatrist? I'm thinking you do. I really am... But shh, here's a hint: They don't have any of that shit. They're just randos who happened to get a job at the company. You know, like a shitty lawyer who was so bad at his job he spent all day playing video games instead.)

[Malikath]

There's a certain trade-off between casualization and player count. When you have a gearing system that's so exclusive that casuals have no chance to keep up, it discourages them and makes them eventually drop the game. Casualization fixes this problem but only to an extent. After a point, gear starts raining like candy and now hardcores have it more difficult because they have to farm gear outside of raids to keep up. Push things in this direction far enough and hardcores will say fuck it and quit the game. Blizzard struck the golden ratio between casuals and hardcores in WotLK but then they saw that casualization caused a rise in subscriber numbers and kept pushing casualization further. Eventually with shit like mandatory dailies in MoP etc. hardcores started quitting. Blizzard's response? Even more casualization.

But they ended up losing subscribers because at that point further casualization didn't attract additional players but instead made hardcores drop the game. Blizzard never learned their lesson.

casualization NEVER improves player involvement, infact given that the recent runescape "classic" version dwarfed it's "modern" version in concurrent players i'd assert that the opposite is infact true.
the fact that method's WF race stream still hasn't gotten to 2/3 of asmongold's or esfand's classic BETA PVP streams also shows the relative attention that these events are garnering.

[Heathy]

wrath was the start of real casualization and it was the expansion where pugging exploded, it was also the one where the game saw its largest amount of active subscribers. pugging really came into its own in wrath, everyone was pugging raids, 10/25, mains, alts. i've heard many ppl claim this was the best expansion, personally i burnt out in icc. if wrath was the best expansion, it was also the one that was casual. pretty much anyone could pug upto totc and i'm sure there were icc pugs going on before i threw in the towel. seems like ppl enjoy making up their own facts about the state of things to reinforce their own narrative. I think ppl just inevitably move away from games over time. no single game can really expect to hold a persons attention forever. eventually it just gets boring. doing the same thing for years and years over and over again, there comes a point where you have to step away and do something else to remember why you started playing in the first place. I know i didn't start raiding only because i wanted all the best gear, I did it for the challenge. I don't ever remember expecting the game to give me everything i want from it, I knew i had a chance but not a guarantee.

what matters, what actually really matters more than chasing titanforged items, is a well skilled, cohesive raid team. the whole matters a lot more than the individual. having a well skilled raid team that works well together will always beat individual bis items. if your team is clearing the content each week, you don't really have a problem as you are making use of your loot chances. the gear you are getting is allowing you to progress further. either into the next tier, or the next difficulty up. both are progression paths. if you are not killing bosses then you do need to farm more gear either from the previous tier or the previous difficulty. why is this being made more convoluted than it really is. its not rocket science. or brain surgery.

[Philomene]

Titanforging along the other mobile game designs are there to keep you hooked to the game and boost the MAUs nothing else.

There are other ways to keep people interested in previous tier content.

[Malikath]

that is utter bull, and you know it. plenty of people have played for 15 years and are still enjoying it, hell I've played for more than 15 years and I'm still loving the game! not the trash that is BFA, but Private servers. Game is still great 15 years later <3 so many ppl loved legion who had played wow for 14 years, so is there like a certain threshold that we reach at 15 years that makes everyone hate BFA? or maybe it's just a terrible expansion? which one seems more likely to you? Stop being condescneding when you're infact a clueless bonobo.

agreed, the false assertion that people "burn-out" or "get bored" with something is a hilarious reach for idiots with nothing real to assert when people put forward their complaints.
people aren't bored of chess because it's still a good game and it's atleast 2 to 4 centuries old(depending on the historian you believe), if modern WoW wasn't shit people wouldn't hate it.
but it provably is and they provably do.

[A Chozo]

no, it doesn't.
you're trying to say "bias", but failing on both the assertion and the basis of said assertion.

Yes it does.

And I'm saying taste, not bias. Just because you don't understand my post doesn't mean you get to guess what I'm trying to say.

[OriginalName]

Gratz on playing a finished product, let us know when you can make one from the ground up.

Just because I live in a house for 20 years doesn't mean I know how to design or build one.

No, but i'm sure you know what you want from your house, or do you design your opinions to be in line with experts/authorities on houses?

[Malikath]

Yes it does.

And I'm saying taste, not bias. Just because you don't understand my post doesn't mean you get to guess what I'm trying to say.

no, sorry.
and i know what you're trying to say, you however don't.

you are trying to assert that by MERELY PLAYING a bad part of the game a person's opinion is wrong due to their bias, and now you're trying to hide it by changing the words.
get fucked, you're still wrong to claim it either way.

[huth]

Care to enlighten me what I'm clueless about?

Could we please make that a list what you're not clueless about? I don't have all day.

[Malikath]

I don't have all day.

no, you have nothing.

[A Chozo]

you are trying to assert that by MERELY PLAYING a bad part of the game a person's opinion is wrong due to their bias, and now you're trying to hide it by changing the words.

In no moment I said "wrong", I said "questionable" - which is what we'r doing here in this thread when we talk about OP's points.

You need to read more calmly. It will help you.

[Doffen]

that is utter bull, and you know it. plenty of people have played for 15 years and are still enjoying it, hell I've played for more than 15 years and I'm still loving the game! not the trash that is BFA, but Private servers. Game is still great 15 years later <3 so many ppl loved legion who had played wow for 14 years, so is there like a certain threshold that we reach at 15 years that makes everyone hate BFA? or maybe it's just a terrible expansion? which one seems more likely to you? Stop being condescneding when you're infact a clueless bonobo.

Yes, and when RNG was worse in Legion than in BfA, what does that tell you? That Titanforging is a rather tiny issue. Most people play the game even though they might not like titanforging, because it matters so little for them. Legion was much better than BfA, but the issue in BfA got nothing to do with titanforging, it just doesn't give us players the same satisfaction when it comes to the actual content like it did in Legion.

[Tiwack]

While fun it removes the need to do harder content for better gear.

[Marrilaife]

wrath was the start of real casualization and it was the expansion where pugging exploded, it was also the one where the game saw its largest amount of active subscribers. pugging really came into its own in wrath, everyone was pugging raids, 10/25, mains, alts. i've heard many ppl claim this was the best expansion, personally i burnt out in icc. if wrath was the best expansion, it was also the one that was casual. pretty much anyone could pug upto totc and i'm sure there were icc pugs going on before i threw in the towel. seems like ppl enjoy making up their own facts about the state of things to reinforce their own narrative.

You don't have to make a game that is anti-casual and "only hardcores allowed". FF14 is a good example of an MMO that is casual friendly, but still has focus on community aspect. The difference between now and back in wotlk isn't how casual friendly the game is, but how redundant making friends and maintaining social connections became. Nearly everything is either solo, or 1-click 0-interaction "group" affair. People don't stick around to keep playing with friends, because they don't have any friends, and they never made any, because it wasn't needed for anything. I'd swear the game had less "content" back then yet people spent more time fooling around with friends / guildies than they play now when there's a clear structure of "do this daily to upgrade your character".