Alliance - is it a failure? (As a faction)

[Mehrunes]

Tell me - whose capital got sacked and leader defeated? And yes, the Alliance gave up Lordaeron, lands essentially useless to them but got Ashenvale back for it - not to mention reinforced their foothold across their own kingdoms. People really be trying to act like the war wasn't a big Alliance victory lol

Ah, missed this post somehow. You do realize that by the time Alliance "sacked" (which they obviously did not) Orgrimmar, the stark majority of the Horde was right there with them doing the same thing? Because at that point the conflict changed from Alliance versus Horde to Alliance and Vol'jin's part of the Horde vs Garrosh, who was no longer the leader of the other group (because he literally kicked them out)? Where both the Alliance and Vol'jin's part of the Horde were victors?

And yes, holdings in Lordaeron that'd allow them to keep one of the strongest Horde factions in check is super useless. Never mind that it'd allow them to get a starting position to get a foothold in Gilneas. You know, one of those "their own kingdoms" you mentioned that Alliance supposedly reinforced their foothold on. And they didn't get Ashenvale back because they haven't lost it in the first place. The factions were locked in a stalemate in that zone.

Glorious, glorious victory for the Alliance you got there.

They withdrew from Azshara willingly, because much like Lordaeron - there's not much there for them - compare that to Ashenvale that still has a huge supply of natural resources - that's clearly a win in my mind. And you know, if a Horde invasion force even set foot in Stormwind you'd be spouting it was a victory for them - be objective or don't bother replying.

The Goblins are stripmining Azshara obviously for shit and giggles and not resources, because that's all they are about. Then there's the non-existent lumber Tyrande herself mentions when talking about giving the zone to the Horde. Silly Tyrande, talking about things that don't exist, all because she doesn't have a clue about the land she governed for ten thousand years.

[Shampro]

What are you talking about? During the Second War she didn't even notice the attack on Quel'Thalas made by the Horde until it was too late. Same with Arthas. She failed spectacularly, which is why Silvermoon is still in ruins to this day.

Jesus fuck, where do you people get your lore?

[Zulkhan]

Varian's rage issues stemmed from his hatred of the Horde due to his past. His relationship with Anduin was threatened because of how they both perceived the Horde differently. Anduin believed peace was a possibility, Varian didn't. It literally had everything to do with faction war. Remove the faction war and what reason is there for Varian and Anduin to disagree?

No, you're twisting things to make a point. His relationship with Anduin was threatened because Varian couldn't keep his rage in check, going far to act harsh if not almost violent simply because he didn't want his son to do certain things, like when he wasn't willing to "lose" Anduin when he wanted to leave home and follow Velen's teachings, or how Varian intended to deal with Moira compared to how Anduin desired to handle the matter. Where's the relevance of the faction war here?

[Zandalariprelate]

With Anduin dying chances are Varian would wage war in an even more of an "unhinged moron" manner and get his teeth kicked in so hard he shits them out the next day even harder.

Metzen would never made his human avatar lose to anything.

[The Butt Witch]

Oh boy, here we go. More salty hordies taking a jab at the Alliance.

[Mehrunes]

Metzen would never made his human avatar lose to anything.

The thing with how Blizzard writes the Alliance is that there's a ginormous chasm between what they want it to be (or at least what they want the players to think about it) and what they actually write about it. Most likely by accident in their typically incompetent faction, because other explanations revolve around mental illness of some kind.

For example, they may thought of Varian as a badass mastermind of war that surpasses people with literally thousands of years of experience (even though the only war he has really seen until his return was the First War where he obviously led nothing as he was still a child) and want people to share that view. On the other hand, what they actually wrote was Varian suffering defeat after humiliating defeat, because he led his forces like a complete moron.

Overextension everywhere. Sending a farmer army to WPL with no supply lines and not much to forage because it's a plagued shithole from human perspective. Starting a war against the Horde without consulting the rest of the Alliance (in the middle of the war against death itself no less) just because he got salty that the Horde reconquered Undercity before he could fulfill his objective of using the rebellion to steal the city from the Horde. Not getting his own ranged support at Broken Shore, forcing Horde's ranged forces to babysit his incompetent ass and depriving the main Horde army of their own ranged support. Losing most of his fleet to a bunch of krakens. So on and so forth.

The idea that the Alliance is so peaceful that it's almost Utopian when it comes to its relations with the Horde is also another example. Because what Blizzard actually ended up writing is a story where out of situations with a confirmed aggressor, Alliance is the more offending party. But since Blizzard never gave a shit about what they wrote before, that gets instantly ignored while Blizzard tries to shove more of the false idea of how peaceful Alliance is down the players' throats.

[Zandalariprelate]

The thing with how Blizzard writes the Alliance is that there's a ginormous chasm between what they want it to be (or at least what they want the players to think about it) and what they actually write about it. Most likely by accident in their typically incompetent faction, because other explanations revolve around mental illness of some kind.

For example, they may thought of Varian as a badass mastermind of war that surpasses people with literally thousands of years of experience (even though the only war he has really seen until his return was the First War where he obviously led nothing as he was still a child) and want people to share that view. On the other hand, what they actually wrote was Varian suffering defeat after humiliating defeat, because he led his forces like a complete moron.

Overextension everywhere. Sending a farmer army to WPL with no supply lines and not much to forage because it's a plagued shithole from human perspective. Starting a war against the Horde without consulting the rest of the Alliance (in the middle of the war against death itself no less) just because he got salty that the Horde reconquered Undercity before he could fulfill his objective of using the rebellion to steal the city from the Horde. Not getting his own ranged support at Broken Shore, forcing Horde's ranged forces to babysit his incompetent ass and depriving the main Horde army of their own ranged support. Losing most of his fleet to a bunch of krakens. So on and so forth.

The idea that the Alliance is so peaceful that it's almost Utopian when it comes to its relations with the Horde is also another example. Because what Blizzard actually ended up writing is a story where out of situations with a confirmed aggressor, Alliance is the more offending party. But since Blizzard never gave a shit about what they wrote before, that gets instantly ignored while Blizzard tries to shove more of the false idea of how peaceful Alliance is down the players' throats.

Agree with a lot of points, also another funny thing we have Duskwood being overrun by cultist that wiped out the town and Westfall has been ignored since Cataclysm and even with Vanessa still alive she doesn't mention the current situation of her lands or even how moronic is the new king but like you said Golden will whitewash everything or just plain ignore it while alliance fanboys will justify that with "hirdi iz miin" or there are "lack of evidence to say what is happening over there"

[VladlTutushkin]

Agree with a lot of points, also another funny thing we have Duskwood being overrun by cultist that wiped out the town and Westfall has been ignored since Cataclysm and even with Vanessa still alive she doesn't mention the current situation of her lands or even how moronic is the new king but like you said Golden will whitewash everything or just plain ignore it while alliance fanboys will justify that with "hirdi iz miin" or there are "lack of evidence to say what is happening over there"

> Speaks about “alliance fanboys”
> being massive stlvanas sycophant
Look who’s talking.

[Zandalariprelate]

> Speaks about “alliance fanboys”
> being massive stlvanas sycophant
Look who’s talking.

Hey I used to like her before BFA but now the character is screwed like most of the bfa cast just like Arthas in Wotlk which was my favorite villain. Anyway I am more a troll fan than anything and when I mentioned alliance fanboys I am talking about the weirdos that only post things "destroy the horde" "elves are superior than horde".

[VladlTutushkin]

Hey I used to like her before BFA but now the character is screwed like most of the bfa cast just like Arthas in Wotlk which was my favorite villain. Anyway I am more a troll fan than anything and when I mentioned alliance fanboys I am talking about the weirdos that only post things "destroy the horde" "elves are superior than horde".

Trolls are cool, but i prefer Darkspear/other lesser tribes to Zandalari. And i am the type of Alliance fan who just wants to stop feeling like a mix of moron and a victim and also an occasional plot NPC for Horde to feel good/bad about beating.

[Zandalariprelate]

Trolls are cool, but i prefer Darkspear/other lesser tribes to Zandalari. And i am the type of Alliance fan who just wants to stop feeling like a mix of moron and a victim and also an occasional plot NPC for Horde to feel good/bad about beating.

Hey I totally share the same sentiment, the heroes or villains are only great if they have adversaries that are at their same level, this is why I love the antagonist from Dark Souls, GoW, Skyrim, Dragon ball, Warhammer and Far cry(minus 5 because the mad priest is a mary sue) and Arthas when he fought most of the prominent names in his time. This is why I would love to have Yrel to take the reigns and payback some favors to the horde while also killing some of the soft side like Thrall, Anduin and Baine, the most close we were was in Wotlk with the hot head of Varian clashing with Garrosh 24/7.

Oh about Trolls I have to admit I have a bias for the Zandalaris because I love the pre columbian civilizations but I also like the darkspear in general because of their attitude and their interesting story against the Kul'tirans, besides the jungle troll armour looks awesome on them.

[Whitedragon]

WAIT what??? The Alliance was formed in the first war to stop the Horde that invaded Azeroth and was laying waste to everything......

Strictly speaking it was during the second War, before that in the first war it was just the kingdom of Azeroth and a few mages. The Alliance itself was formed to rebuke the now undeniable threat that the orcish horde presented with the destruction of Stormwind. It started with the remaining human kingdoms (Some offering only token support), and later grew to include the Highelves, Whiled hammer Dwarves, then Ironforge Dwarves, and gnomes.

What I think he was say is that the Alliance we have today is a new one which is also wrong. Yes the north lands where shattered, but by that point Stormwind was rebuilt, and it as well as the Dwarf clans and gnomes where still acting members of the old Alliance. Yes it was severely weakened but it never actually died.

He's probably just thinks a new Alliance was formed when the night elves joined in between WC 3 and WoW.

[Tripzzz]

No, you're twisting things to make a point. His relationship with Anduin was threatened because Varian couldn't keep his rage in check, going far to act harsh if not almost violent simply because he didn't want his son to do certain things, like when he wasn't willing to "lose" Anduin when he wanted to leave home and follow Velen's teachings, or how Varian intended to deal with Moira compared to how Anduin desired to handle the matter. Where's the relevance of the faction war here?

True those instances have little to do with the Horde and more to do with Alliance internal conflict. But there is still a small connection to the Horde in both instances.

Velen has a history of working with the Horde, so it's clear a pacifist like Anduin would want to follow his teachings.

The Horde is basically non existent in the Moira situation but it is the reason why Anduin was in Ironforge according to Varian's Wowpedia page on "The Shattering" section which states

"Varian thought it best to send Anduin away to Theramore, where he can be under the guardianship of Jaina Proudmoore, and later Ironforge, where he can learn to improve his martial training and hopefully understand the need for his caution with the Horde."

[Zulkhan]

Velen has a history of working with the Horde, so it's clear a pacifist like Anduin would want to follow his teachings.

This is a very stretched and implicit connection however, one never enlightened and mentioned anywhere by anyone. In-lore, the apparent reason why Varian didn't want Anduin to leave was because he didn't want to lose his son's presence around.

The Horde is basically non existent in the Moira situation but it is the reason why Anduin was in Ironforge according to Varian's Wowpedia page on "The Shattering" section which states

"Varian thought it best to send Anduin away to Theramore, where he can be under the guardianship of Jaina Proudmoore, and later Ironforge, where he can learn to improve his martial training and hopefully understand the need for his caution with the Horde."

I don't remember if that's an actual bit present in The Shattering, but even if it was that's quite a distant matter from all the bullshit Moria started later, the way Varian was extremely angered by the danger posed to his son and how Anduin was still convinced that "diplomacy" was still a worthy option.

[Tripzzz]

This is a very stretched and implicit connection however, one never enlightened and mentioned anywhere by anyone. In-lore, the apparent reason why Varian didn't want Anduin to leave was because he didn't want to lose his son's presence around.



I don't remember if that's an actual bit present in The Shattering, but even if it was that's quite a distant matter from all the bullshit Moria started later, the way Varian was extremely angered by the danger posed to his son and how Anduin was still convinced that "diplomacy" was still a worthy option.

Can you think of any Alliance leader at the time that had worked with the Horde? Velen being a pascifist and Anduin believing in such ideals is mentioned in lore. If Varian didn't want Anduin leaving his side, why send him away to train in Ironforge?

[Zulkhan]

Can you think of any Alliance leader at the time that had worked with the Horde? Velen being a pascifist and Anduin believing in such ideals is mentioned in lore. If Varian didn't want Anduin leaving his side, why send him away to train in Ironforge?

Varian sent Anduin to Ironforge because he considered him "soft" and not very warrior-like, which is why he also acted overly-protective towards his son, thinking that Magni could have given him that proper warrior training to toughen him up. Following Velen was perceived as abandonment and almost a deviation from the path Varian deemed "necessary" for his son's safety. It has been a long time since I read Wolfheart, but I remember quite clearly that such was the point of the matter.