Non-meta spec theorycrafting

[AeneasBK]

Is SWP the highest damage per cast DoT in the game, because of it's scaling or because of other factors, because it's not the highest DPS based straight up on its numbers on wowhead.

Consider that corruption can make Shadowbolt instant cast which could arguably be considered part of the DPS that putting corruption on a boss can provide...

[ellieg]

Is SWP the highest damage per cast DoT in the game, because of it's scaling or because of other factors, because it's not the highest DPS based straight up on its numbers on wowhead.

on WoWhead numbers

SWP: 47 DPS
Rupture: 50 DPS
Rip: 78 DPS

Idk what the highest dps dot is but make sure you factor in the opportunity cost. Swp is 1 global. For rupture and RIP, you gotta look at the energy cost, and then subtract the dmg that an evis/ferocious bite would have done using those combo pts

[jackofwind]

Consider that corruption can make Shadowbolt instant cast which could arguably be considered part of the DPS that putting corruption on a boss can provide...

I thought the caveat was specifically that it was only the DoT damage we were considering, not any additional damage buffs it provides.

[ellieg]

Consider that corruption can make Shadowbolt instant cast which could arguably be considered part of the DPS that putting corruption on a boss can provide...

If you are theory crafting this hard, I'd imagine all locks will be ds ruin except for the the one sm ruin lock in the tank group. So only 1 corruption would provide the free shadowbolt.

[jackofwind]

Is SWP the highest damage per cast DoT in the game, because of it's scaling or because of other factors, because it's not the highest DPS based straight up on its numbers on wowhead.

on WoWhead numbers

SWP: 47 DPS
Rupture: 50 DPS
Rip: 78 DPS

Those two may be more but they're also not a single cast, 1 global debuff. You have to consider the amount of time spent actually building CP to get to that damage level.

[lummiuster]

First of all, everything he said made sense... When you wanna share your thoughts, dont be a fucking asshole and bash someone.

He's referring to the fact that no warlock curses boost an elemental shamans damage in a significant way, unlike mages, spriests, boomkins, etc.

Oomkin is a joke name given to balance druids way back in the day, because they went OOM so quickly.

Get the fuck over yourself.

Nah man, if you cant express yourself in a way that normal people can't understand then there's no point in sharing your thoughts. Logic 101. It is obvious that most people who ask about classes viability don't know much about their strengths and weakness. The answer he gave was an answer that only people who knew the answer could understand. I can't believe I have to explain such obvious simple things. People like you are polluting the forums even if you're a matter expert on something if you can't be understood than you're useless and should remain quiet.

[jackofwind]

Nah man, if you cant express yourself in a way that normal people can't understand then there's no point in sharing your thoughts. Logic 101. It is obvious that most people who ask about classes viability don't know much about their strengths and weakness. The answer he gave was an answer that only people who knew the answer could understand. I can't believe I have to explain such obvious simple things. People like you are polluting the forums even if you're a matter expert on something if you can't be understood than you're useless and should remain quiet.

Did you honestly not understand what he meant when he said "Oomkin"? You did, because you responded and told him to call them Moonkin.

By your own logic you've just been hoisted on your own petard.

[ellieg]

Nah man, if you cant express yourself in a way that normal people can't understand then there's no point in sharing your thoughts. Logic 101. It is obvious that most people who ask about classes viability don't know much about their strengths and weakness. The answer he gave was an answer that only people who knew the answer could understand. I can't believe I have to explain such obvious simple things. People like you are polluting the forums even if you're a matter expert on something if you can't be understood than you're useless and should remain quiet.

I'm turning myself into the police right now. Sorry for wasting your time lmao. You should probably talk to your therapist abt upping your meds

[WashedUpRaider]

Nah man, if you cant express yourself in a way that normal people can't understand then there's no point in sharing your thoughts. Logic 101. It is obvious that most people who ask about classes viability don't know much about their strengths and weakness. The answer he gave was an answer that only people who knew the answer could understand. I can't believe I have to explain such obvious simple things. People like you are polluting the forums even if you're a matter expert on something if you can't be understood than you're useless and should remain quiet.

You're literally the only one who didnt understand. If a person is asking a question on these forums, theyre not brain dead retarded like you want to believe they are. Go back to class on reading comprehension and using context clues. You clearly slept through it or dropped out before you got that far.

Hush.

[Sluvs]

Nah man, if you cant express yourself in a way that normal people can't understand then there's no point in sharing your thoughts. Logic 101. It is obvious that most people who ask about classes viability don't know much about their strengths and weakness. The answer he gave was an answer that only people who knew the answer could understand. I can't believe I have to explain such obvious simple things. People like you are polluting the forums even if you're a matter expert on something if you can't be understood than you're useless and should remain quiet.

It is one thing to ask for clarifications if you did not understand. It's another to be rude to the person. You are wrong, apologize and get over it.

[Millyraynge]

The problem is the basic idea behind non-meta specs for speed runs.

How do you want to achieve the necessary equipment on your niche character to be able to join a speed running group with the goal of #1 in their head?

What people like to forget is the unique loot system in vanilla... especially in raids. #thesamelootfor10weeksinarow

[AeneasBK]

Came back just to double down on his retarded post from the first page, my oh my.

I thought the caveat was specifically that it was only the DoT damage we were considering, not any additional damage buffs it provides.

Absolutely, my point was a little off-topic in a way; but I guess what I meant to say was "Does Shadow Word: Pain offer anything in the way of secondary buffs like the instant SB that Corruption does?"

- - - Updated - - -

If you are theory crafting this hard, I'd imagine all locks will be ds ruin except for the the one sm ruin lock in the tank group. So only 1 corruption would provide the free shadowbolt.

Sure, but you only have 1 slot for a corruption anyway so it would be given to the SM/Ruin lock, right? (Multiple corruptions all require their own debuff slot, correct?).

If that one lock gets for sake of argument 1 free SB every 3 corruptions and SB hits for 1500 then 'arguably' each Corruption has done around 500 more damage.

[OriginalName]

Idk what the highest dps dot is but make sure you factor in the opportunity cost. Swp is 1 global. For rupture and RIP, you gotta look at the energy cost, and then subtract the dmg that an evis/ferocious bite would have done using those combo pts

Those two may be more but they're also not a single cast, 1 global debuff. You have to consider the amount of time spent actually building CP to get to that damage level.

In order to account for druid combo point stacking, about 6 globals with powershift on opener for 6 cp

swp duration; 18 seconds
rip duration; 12 seconds

Putting this into account, correct me if my logic is wrong here, adding another 6 seconds to account for full duration+6 = 282 damage

282+852 = 1134

1134/18 = 63 DPS from SWP

So, while swp gets 282 free damage, because if you let it run for 6 seconds and then re-apply it on the rip to match uptime, you're 15 DPS shorter than rip.

The way I see it, rip still pulls ahead in terms of pure damage, if druid can execute powershift correctly, though none of this is taking into account coefficients for swp, rip, gear or anything like that, just using the raw numbers from classic wowhead.

[jackofwind]

In order to account for druid combo point stacking, about 6 globals with powershift on opener for 6 cp

swp duration; 18 seconds
rip duration; 12 seconds

Putting this into account, correct me if my logic is wrong here, adding another 6 seconds to account for full duration+6 = 282 damage

282+852 = 1134

1134/18 = 63 DPS from SWP

So, while swp gets 282 free damage, because if you let it run for 6 seconds and then re-apply it on the rip to match uptime, you're 15 DPS shorter than rip.

The way I see it, rip still pulls ahead in terms of pure damage, if druid can execute powershift correctly, though none of this is taking into account coefficients for swp, rip, gear or anything like that, just using the raw numbers from classic wowhead.

That does seem to be accurate, I guess Rip does tick for more. When you take into consideration the leadup time that SW:P would get while the CP are being generated though it still does a bit more damage overall.

[Gaidax]

In order to account for druid combo point stacking, about 6 globals with powershift on opener for 6 cp

swp duration; 18 seconds
rip duration; 12 seconds

Putting this into account, correct me if my logic is wrong here, adding another 6 seconds to account for full duration+6 = 282 damage

282+852 = 1134

1134/18 = 63 DPS from SWP

So, while swp gets 282 free damage, because if you let it run for 6 seconds and then re-apply it on the rip to match uptime, you're 15 DPS shorter than rip.

The way I see it, rip still pulls ahead in terms of pure damage, if druid can execute powershift correctly, though none of this is taking into account coefficients for swp, rip, gear or anything like that, just using the raw numbers from classic wowhead.

That does seem to be accurate, I guess Rip does tick for more. When you take into consideration the leadup time that SW:P would get while the CP are being generated though it still does a bit more damage overall.

You guys are cute... it's as if AP/SP scaling, talents and debuffs do not exist. You really can't compare things like this.

I mean in between Shadow Embrace and ISB and CoS - you already have your hypothetical target take a shitton of extra Shadow damage and god knows what buffs Rip on the other hand too and how well it scales (or if at all) - I personally have no clue on that one.

Comparing tooltips and making some sort of conclusions there is silly.

[OriginalName]

You guys are cute... it's as if AP/SP scaling, talents and debuffs do not exist. You really can't compare things like this.

I mean in between Shadow Embrace and ISB and CoS - you already have your hypothetical target take a shitton of extra Shadow damage and god knows what buffs Rip on the other hand too and how well it scales (or if at all) - I personally have no clue on that one.

Comparing tooltips and making some sort of conclusions there is silly.

You seem to have completely missed the mark here with this thought exercise. We could do another run of this, if you would give us the exact data for all those multipliers, ap/sp coefficients, sunder/expose armor, recklessness, armor values on bosses, resistances on bosses.

Because I don't have those, I can't account for those.

[Gaidax]

You seem to have completely missed the mark here with this thought exercise. We could do another run of this, if you would give us the exact data for all those multipliers, ap/sp coefficients, sunder/expose armor, recklessness, armor values on bosses, resistances on bosses.

Because I don't have those, I can't account for those.

Then what's the point of arguing for a whole page now if you know from the get go that whatever you both say is effectively false anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


I am pretty confident that very soon there will be classic simulationcraft release that will get fed by actual ingame data and you will be able to run the necessary comparisons there.

[jackofwind]

You guys are cute... it's as if AP/SP scaling, talents and debuffs do not exist. You really can't compare things like this.

I mean in between Shadow Embrace and ISB and CoS - you already have your hypothetical target take a shitton of extra Shadow damage and god knows what buffs Rip on the other hand too and how well it scales (or if at all) - I personally have no clue on that one.

Comparing tooltips and making some sort of conclusions there is silly.

It was just a discussion about the baseline damage, simply for the sake of having it. We weren't applying it in a real-world scenario and we even clarified that it was with no additional buffs/debuff slots etc.

It was just a fun thought exercise my dude. We definitely weren't arguing. Sometimes people just discuss stuff for fun.

[Shiny212]

Because of no curse for extra damage (do you speak english)? Oomkins (what the hell is that. Why would you not call it balance or moonkin like a normal being). What debuffs are you talking about? Man when you wanna share your thoughts be clear or keep them for yourself.

In vanilla we call them noobkins actually.

[Necromantic]

(do you speak english)?

*English