I have nobody else to say this to, but I want to say it anyways: WoW is still good...

[arkanon]

Inb4 close - nothing to discuss, just a blog post. I'm glad you enjoy the game, but maybe frame it so there is actually something to talk about?

[Schattenlied]

If gear is the end-all be-all for you and the reason you play the game, I can understand why titanforging hurts your experience. Hopefully you can see for people like me it only makes the game better.

Gear is not the be all end all for me, what it is, however, is a very strong determining factor in how content is preserved and kept relevant for the entire expansion. If the game just vomits 'current-content-patch' epics at you everything except the stuff from the most recent patch is completely irrelevant and might as well have been deleted from the game, because no one touches it.

it used to be that all content from an expansion didn't become irrelevant until the next expansion came out (it was like this in vanilla and TBC), with the launch of WotLK and the introduction of extreme catchup mechanics, a piece of content would became irrelevant after just a few months... Not only does that remove a sense of progression, but it also feels like the effort they put into creating that content, only for it to be abandoned by the playerbase entirely a few months later, wasn't worth it.

So, yeah, Titanforging isn't as big an issue to me as overbearing catchup mechanics maybe, but when I'm running a heroic 5 man on a new character and the game barfs a titanforged item at me that is the same ilvl as the current raid tier's heroic mode, it feels stupid to me because I know I didn't earn the damn thing. I had no problem with warforging, +5 ilvl or a gem slot, that was fine, it wasn't extreme like TF is, the rewards were still within their content range.

[Zenfoldor]

It went from amazing to awful with the Legion to BFA transition. Unfortunately. It just isn't that good today. That doesn't mean it won't regain that magic next xpak. I think it will. Legion was phenomenal.

[kaminaris]

Don't speak for me, bub.

When that gear is harder to come by, it doesn't matter, because you will have a lot of that gear for much longer than now, every piece is more important.

It doesn't magically make game better if gear acquisition is restricted, take a look at witcher 3. Gear literally was handed you from every chest. Yet it was still a great game, you know why? Because it was new, gameplay was good, story was great. Gear literally didn't matter at all. Never mattered in rpg games. It just made your gameplay easier.

This is just delusion and trying to grasp straws.

Whether you want to call it an illusion or not, the previous illusion was effective in it's purpose, the current one is not... Even when T3 was out in vanilla, getting a good set of pre-raid gear was still an achievement people actively worked towards on their new characters, because it was a clearly defined goal, with a clearly defined end point, and getting there felt good... All of the content was relevant throughout the entirety of vanilla without the need for any crap like titanforging...

No it wasn't, it was just a chore. Farming boring content and praying to RNG for specific piece to finally drop.

Tell me, how often do people run Uldir right now? BfDA?

Almost never, titanforging doesn't do jack shit to keep them relevant.

And it is good. People (including me) been there for a long time and are DONE with that raid. I have no intention of going there even if it would drop current heroic gear.

How often did people run MC and BWL after AQ came out? After Naxx came out?

All the fucking time.

How often did people run Kara/Gruul/Mag after TK/SSC came out in TBC?

All the time.

How often did people run TK/SSC after Hyjal/BT came out?

All the time.

How often did people run Hyjal/BT after Sunwell came out?

All the time.

And you think it was good? To force people run some shit content for entire expansion until they quit the game because they had enough? No it isn't.

Because the content was always relevant because the progression was clearly defined with clearly defined stepping off points. None of it was made irrelevant by the next tier because all of it served a purpose, progression, it wasn't made irrelevant by the overbearing catchup mechanics we have now that all but delete the previous raid tier from existence as soon as the next one comes out... They were all still relevant because they were all still needed by people to progress.

Yeah good old times, forcing current-tier raiders to run the same shit over and over again just because their raiders were poached to another guild. Certainly it was worth it.

I never said the only goal was gear, but it is a goal.

It was never a goal, lets be honest, since vanilla each new raid tier invalidated previous content, we've been thru this for 15 years, nobody is gonna get fooled that gear is(was) somehow relevant.

No, I said "building your character", as in deciding how you want your character to play, which is why I specified an example like the old talent trees.

Don't try to twist my words.

Well, talent trees might have been good idea if done correctly. Unfortunately it wasn't done correctly, blizzard realized that and we have simplified version now.

[Schattenlied]

take a look at witcher 3. Gear literally was handed you from every chest.

Ok? Level of the gear is what matters not that it was given to you.

Imagine you came into W3 a year and a half after it came out, and you were given nearly a full set of max level gear within 2 hours of playing, so that your gear could "catch up" to people who had been playing for a year+, and you never needed to worry about loot again unless you were playing on Death March (Mythic) difficulty, or a new DLC came out. Completely different experience.

That's WoW right now.

This is just delusion and trying to grasp straws.

Nope.

No it wasn't, it was just a chore. Farming boring content and praying to RNG for specific piece to finally drop.

Funny, isn't that what you're doing with titanforging when you're farming boring as shit world quests hoping for a relevant piece of gear to titanforge from it? At least with the old way you knew exatly where to get the relevant gear, clearly defined progression paths.

And it is good. People (including me) been there for a long time and are DONE with that raid.

Ok, not everyone is though, people progress at different speeds, people come into the expansion late, etc.

And you think it was good? To force people run some shit content for entire expansion until they quit the game because they had enough? No it isn't.

No one is being forced to do anything, people did it because they wanted to, because it was still relevant content and they wanted to play it.

Yeah good old times, forcing current-tier raiders to run the same shit over and over again just because their raiders were poached to another guild. Certainly it was worth it.

Maybe get a raid team you can trust that is held together by something worthwhile, so people won't abandon you. If people are abandoning you, you have a different problem. I've never had anyone abandon my raid guild because we're held together by a likeness for eachother, instead of being a glorified PuG. Maybe you should give that a try sometime.

Also this is a largely irrelevant thing to bring up because flex raiding exists now, which eliminates this problem for the overwhelming majority of people.

It was never a goal

Yes, it was.

since vanilla each new raid tier invalidated previous content

Except it wasn't, if something is actively being participated in, then it hasn't been invalidated.

Well, talent trees might have been good idea if done correctly. Unfortunately it wasn't done correctly, blizzard realized that and we have simplified version now.

I disagree entirely, the current talent trees are garbage, they don't matter, they are entirely dictated by the fight, and they contribute to the leveling experience being lackluster because there's massively long stretches where a leveling player doesn't get any new spells or talents... They also constrain the player by making them choose between things that with the old talent trees they would have had anyways. The old trees largely just made things you could already do better, instead of dictating whether or not you could do them at all.

Simplified isn't always better, in fact I'd say it usually isn't in videogames. Too much QOL is boring.

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

No it wasn't, it was just a chore. Farming boring content and praying to RNG for specific piece to finally drop.

How can you even say this while playing BFA? Do you have any idea how dumb you are right now?

[kaminaris]

Nope.




Funny, isn't that what you're doing with titanforging when you're farming boring as shit world quests hoping for a relevant piece of gear to titanforge from it? At least with the old way you knew exatly where to get the relevant gear.

Yep, we still do know now. Even easier as you don't need to look on 3rd party websites, just check dungeon journal. You do not need titanforge to be satisfied as long as it is upgrade.

Ok, not everyone is though, people progress at different speeds, people come into the expansion late, etc.

Yeah and they can jump to current content without bothering anyone anymore, no need to say to friend who wants to return midway - go play some pugs until you catchup with us so we can play together.

No one is being forced to do anything, people did it because they wanted to, because it was still relevant content and they wanted to play it.

Right, playing one raid for entire expansion must be so fun.

Maybe get a raid team you can trust that is held together by something worthwhile, so people won't abandon you. If people are abandoning you, you have a different problem.

Or maybe those people don't want to run same raid for 2 years?

Yes, it was.

No it wasn't. Blizzard realized that, thats why we have titanforging.

Except it wasn't, if something is actively being participated it, then it hasn't been invalidated.

Apparently our definition of "active participation" vastly differs. You know you can still find a group to run some raids from legion... Does that meant content is still relevant? According to you it is.

I disagree entirely, the current talent trees are garbage, they don't matter, they are entirely dictated by the fight, and they contribute to the leveling experience being lackluster because there's massively long stretches where a leveling player doesn't get any new spells or talents.

Simplified isn't always better, in fact I'd say it usually isn't in videogames. Too much QOL is boring.

You mean people using cookie cutter builds? Just to spam one button? Right, they were so much fun.

- - - Updated - - -

How can you even say this while playing BFA? Do you have any idea how dumb you are right now?

I don't do chores in BfA, that is just you being delusional. I do not hope for gear when doing M+, I just want to push higher for the sake of difficulty itself.

While playing dungeons in old expansions were chores as they posed no challenge at all once you geared yourself up.

[Schattenlied]

no need to say to friend who wants to return midway - go play some pugs until you catchup with us so we can play together.

If you're saying that to your "friends", then you're an awful excuse for a friend, no wonder you'd complain about people abandoning your raid groups.

Right, playing one raid for entire expansion must be so fun.

No one was forced to do it, they chose to.

Or maybe those people don't want to run same raid for 2 years?

See above.

No it wasn't. Blizzard realized that, thats why we have titanforging.

Nope...

Apparently our definition of "active participation" vastly differs. You know you can still find a group to run some raids from legion... Does that meant content is still relevant?

It's hilarious that you think these are remotely the same thing...

According to you it is.

No, because previous raid tiers in vanilla and TBC had an absolute shitload more people playing them than there are people pugging legion raids during BFA.

You mean people using cookie cutter builds?

People use more cookie cutter builds right now than they did back then.

Just to spam one button?

This is a completely separate topic that has nothing to do with talents.

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

I don't do chores in BfA, that is just you being delusional.

Yeah grandma like you probably consider Nazjatar and Mechagon not a chore or even consider them a challenge.

But please use your brain abit to consider that maybe not everyone is as dumb as you and consider Nazjatar, Mechagon, and any M+ below 18 is anything but grandma's playground.

[kaminaris]

If you're saying that to your "friends", then you're an awful excuse for a friend, no wonder you'd complain about people abandoning your raid groups.

You just made something up. All my friends are either still playing or quit game altogether.

No one was forced to do it, they chose to.

Nobody choses to run old content they been thru hundreds of times, unless they are masochists.

It's hilarious that you think these are remotely the same thing...

Hilarious is thinking that any content is can last forever.

No, because previous raid tiers in vanilla and TBC had an absolute shitload more people playing them than there are people pugging legion raids during BFA.
People use more cookie cutter builds right now than they did back then.

Because they had no choice, not because they liked it.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah grandma like you probably consider Nazjatar and Mechagon not a chore or even consider them a challenge.

But please use your brain abit to consider that maybe not everyone is as dumb as you and consider Nazjatar, Mechagon, and any M+ below 18 is anything but grandma's playground.

Show me your immortal achievement from mechagon then.
Show me +20 done in time. All +15 done in time last 2 seasons. Some cutting edges (have around 10 of them probably).

[Schattenlied]

You just made something up. All my friends are either still playing or quit game altogether.

You literally just said : "no need to say to friend who wants to return midway - go play some pugs until you catchup with us so we can play together."

How is that possibly a thing you bring up as a counterpoint if you're not saying it?

Nobody choses to run old content they been thru hundreds of times, unless they are masochists.

Well they did it, I don't know what to tell you.

Hilarious is thinking that any content is can last forever.

I never said forever, it lasts until the next expansion, that is decidedly less than "forever".

Because they had no choice, not because they liked it.

If they didn't like it they wouldn't do it, no one forces them to play the game, no one forces them to try to progress further. They do it because they want to.

[Jackrabb1t]

I just want them to stop the endless grind of resources i.e. Artifact power, azerite, etc. Would feel like you can stop to catch your breath and actually play alts and just have fun. That will determine if I play next expac or mothball my Razer Naga.

[kaminaris]

You literally just said : "no need to say to friend who wants to return midway - go play some pugs until you catchup with us so we can play together."

How is that possibly a thing you bring up as a counterpoint if you're not saying it?

Think a bit harder, I didn't need to be the one who said it, I witnesed it.

Well they did it, I don't know what to tell you.

And you asked every single one of them why? Well I did ask few people = because they still chased some bis gear from previous content or they wanted to catch up with raid group. Never heard from anyone (I had few people playing since NA beta) that it was fun.

I never said forever, it lasts until the next expansion, that is decidedly less than "forever".

But it never lasted more than half a year. Noone wants to run the same shit over and over again. Eventually any activity gets boring. And no, 2 years is definitely tooooo long.

If they didn't like it they wouldn't do it, no one forces them to play the game, no one forces them to try to progress further. They do it because they want to.

That's not really how it works pal. I used to run Emerald nightmare and The nightghold with my previous guild when current tier was tomb of sergaras. Just because there was a chance for legend. Did we like it? Fuck no. Fortunately in BfA there is absolutely nothing in previous tiers.

[SoulSoBreezy]

WoW is still a good game, just not for the same reasons it used to be a good game.

The reason why is different for everyone. The hardcore people who min/max will be upset about class and character changes and other people really just miss some fundamental features that were removed, added or otherwise altered. A company cant make everyone happy and I dont think that should be their focus because making a group of people happy can be at the cost at upsetting others.

There are a lot of people that hate WoW but I still love it. Im not a Blizzard fanboy, its just an MMO that I have come back to time and again unlike the others I was able to uninstall and walk away from for good.




Thanks for your time

Good for you, man.
Lots of threads here try to dismiss opinions, thought correct and polarize people into camps for the sake of vindicating their own feelings. The opinion you ought to pay the most attention to is your own.

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

Show me your immortal achievement from mechagon then.

Wait are you saying immortal ach from mechagon is hard?
Also you cant get 10 Cutting Edge atm, you'd know this if you're not LFR plebs.

[kaminaris]

Wait are you saying immortal ach from mechagon is hard?
Also you cant get 10 Cutting Edge atm, you'd know this if you're not LFR plebs.

I see, so you only run LFR then. I missed by one, I have 9 cutting edges while there are 19 (18 if you count garrosh 25/10 as one achivement).
https://www.wowhead.com/raid-feats-o...e:cutting+edge

[sephrinx]

Eh.

We all have our opinions.

Imo, WoW is not good right now.

[Zantera]

I just want them to stop the endless grind of resources i.e. Artifact power, azerite, etc. Would feel like you can stop to catch your breath and actually play alts and just have fun. That will determine if I play next expac or mothball my Razer Naga.

This is a doubled edged sword though. Take away AP and what you get is how it used to be in Wotlk and Cata when large parts of the expansion were spent in the capital just running around because outside raids there just wasn't that much to do. Daily HC was a thing to force you through faceroll content for some badges and daily quests that gave 5 gold was a thing but I think the good thing with AP is i feel i can always play my main and further my character progress in some way.

As for alts I think people over exaggerate the alt unfriendliness of BFA. I raid 3 nights a week on my main which is ~435 ilvl and my neck is soon 65 and sure my alts aren't up to that level but i got 2 alts with neck level 60 and one that's like 58 and I do a +10 on these chars every week, cap islands, etc. Unless you are a CE raider who is looking to have an alt equally on par with your main for mythic alt raids OR you for some reason want to push high keys (like over +15) on your alts there's really nothing currently stopping you from having alts good enough to do +10s or get into first mythic bosses on.

That's just my 5 cents though.

[potis]

As for alts I think people over exaggerate the alt unfriendliness of BFA. I raid 3 nights a week on my main which is ~435 ilvl and my neck is soon 65 and sure my alts aren't up to that level but i got 2 alts with neck level 60 and one that's like 58 and I do a +10 on these chars every week, cap islands, etc. Unless you are a CE raider who is looking to have an alt equally on par with your main for mythic alt raids OR you for some reason want to push high keys (like over +15) on your alts there's really nothing currently stopping you from having alts good enough to do +10s or get into first mythic bosses on.

That's just my 5 cents though.

Yes but you are already playing more than you should an you farmed some things.

Alt unfriendliness comes from the ability to play them all at the same level, and only limitation is gear, right now i cant play my Hunter/Priest/Shaman cause no way in hell i am gonna farm the essences needed for them.

My monk is just using the passive essences, the m+ ones and crucible, and Vision since i took him to mechagon, his neck is 57 by the passive AP of those M+, maybe 3 emissary in 1 month and random LFRs from boredom, but the essences arent ideal at all.

The alts basically dont feel right because they lack things i should farm because i cant be playing to have fun with the pixels like some toddler with toys, i enjoy playing properly, but no way in hell i am farming on them, the same shit i did on the main less than a month before, its too close together time tables.

[kaminaris]

Removal of gem sockets that allow customization. (only source now is a RNG slot machine upgrade on gear)

Removal of heaps of interesting stats.

Removal of reforging.

Removal of glyphs.

Removal of talents.

Removal of abilities that gave flavour and unique playstyles.

Turning almost every DPS spec into a builder + spender style gameplay.

New design mantra of "play our way or don't play at all".

Removal of the ability to use what weapon type you want. (Frost DK forced to dual wield. Enhance forced to dual wield. etc)

Removal of enchanting multiple slots. What do we have now? Rings and weapons? LMFAO.

Complete destruction of professions. They're a fucking joke now.



I can go on if you'd like?

The ONLY valid points is removal of gems with RNG gems now and professions.

1. WoW never had heaps of interesting stats.
2. For reforging you used addon, that was like one extra step that never really mattered.
3. Glyphs are still in game, just cosmetic, it was just another form of talents that cost you gold.
4. Old talent trees didn't make sense if majority followed guides and used cookie cutter builds, all can be calculated now.
5. Which were almost never used, not even bound to a hotkey.
6. Builder + spender playstyle isn't bad. This is purely subjective.
7. Not even close, you can literally ignore 90% of things you don't like.
8. Enchanting almost every slot was a fucking disaster, each gear upgrade you got, you had to get back to AH and buy enchant. It literally meant nothing, just added a flat gold cost to gear upgrades.