Would You Forgive The Horde?

[Stelio Kontos]

Oh so Garithos murdering bleed elves left and right wasn't wrong? Setting fire to Camp Taurajo while there was civilians still in the village wasn't wrong? Jaina Proudmoore murdering blood elves wholesale in Dalaran just because they were blood elves and might have a connection to Theramore was totally ok? The fact that the Alliance STILL partakes in slavery of orcs to this day is totally ok?

Hate to break it to you but the Alliance's hands aren't clean. The Horde player base very often admits to the terrible things the Horde has done but the Alliance player base acts like every heinous act the Alliance commits was justified.

I just love that you have to go back 10 or 20 years into the lore and even then both acts still can't hold a candle to the sheer numbers murdered in Teldrassil alone.

[TheRevenantHero]

I just love that you have to go back 10 or 20 years into the lore and even then both acts still can't hold a candle to the sheer numbers murdered in Teldrassil alone.

Oh ok so because the Horde has done something supremely terrible, it excuses all the shitty actions the Alliance has taken. Totally makes sense /s

[Stelio Kontos]

Oh ok so because the Horde has done something supremely terrible, it excuses all the shitty actions the Alliance has taken. Totally makes sense /s

But but muh taurajo! Nevermind the horrors Garrosh and Sylvanas inflicted on the masses, Garithos, a local Lordaeronian commander, was brutal to some High Elves!

I swear, it's like the "but but Dresden was bombed, guys!" weasel arguments you see from certain groups.

[TheRevenantHero]

But but muh taurajo! Nevermind the horrors Garrosh and Sylvanas inflicted on the masses, Garithos, a local Lordaeronian commander, was brutal to some High Elves!

I swear, it's like the "but but Dresden was bombed, guys!" weasel arguments you see from certain groups.

Thank you for proving my point about the Alliance fan base.

[Stelio Kontos]

Thank you for proving my point about the Alliance fan base.

And what does it say for the Horde fanbase that they refer to the same script every time? No one defends Taurajo or Garithos outside of memes. But a lot of Horde big brains are very self-righteous in defending mass genocide and WMD use.

Again, it's like using the bombing of Dresden as "proof" that the Allied forces were just as bad as the Axis.

[Lumineus]

Man, I can't even forgive the Horde out of character because they talk shit about the Hall of Fame after bandwagoning for OP racials like lemmings. Not even getting into the schadenfreude over High Elves. Fuck the Horde.

[Darth-Piekus]

Oh ok so because the Horde has done something supremely terrible, it excuses all the shitty actions the Alliance has taken. Totally makes sense /s

On the contrary. I haven't seen a single Alliance player not admitting all these shitty actions but let's be honest. The Horde has done at this point 10 times the amount of crimes than the Alliance to the point that you wonder if they are the danger Azeroth should fight instead of the known villains.

[Darth-Piekus]

Well to be fair, I have argued that Tauraho is more nuanced because it was mostly about the Alliance hiring mercenaries and then completely failing to control them; what happened was not Alliance policy but rather Alliance incompetence. It is still inexcusable since the Alliance certainly should be held responsible for what mercenaries it hires do.

What I meant is that there wasn't a single Alliance who didn't use excuses for a massacre if you know what I mean. BTW the Tree had it coming.

[Mehrunes]

Well to be fair, I have argued that Tauraho is more nuanced because it was mostly about the Alliance hiring mercenaries and then completely failing to control them; what happened was not Alliance policy but rather Alliance incompetence. It is still inexcusable since the Alliance certainly should be held responsible for what mercenaries it hires do.

The Alliance forces at Taurajo weren't all mercenaries. The gryphon regiment hired to control the sky during the battle was mercenary. Nothing of the sort has been said about the ground forces. In regards to those who looted Taurajo after the battle it was just the opposite - Hawthorne flat out said they were conscripted by the Aliance. And while the gryphon riders firebombed Taurajo during the battle, they did so at Hawthorne's orders. So I really don't see how Taurajo was "mostly about the Alliance hiring mercenaries and then completely failing to control them". Because even if you see the firebombing as the worst part of Taurajo, that didn't happen because "the Alliance failed to control them".

But I wouldn't even say that the firebombing is the biggest issue. To me the biggest issue is Hawthorne halfassing his benevolence towards the civilians and in his stark negligence paying no mind whatsoever to the geopolitics of the region when ordering his men to leave a gap for them, leading to a lot of the escaping civilians getting slaughtered by the Quillboar anyway.

I just love that you have to go back 10 or 20 years into the lore and even then both acts still can't hold a candle to the sheer numbers murdered in Teldrassil alone.

What numbers? There are no precise numbers in lore. Never mind that even if you were correct on the numbers in the Garithos vs Teldrassil comparison it'd be because by that time the Blood Elves were already decimated by the Scourge and had that not happened the numbers Garithos would merrily send to the executioner's block would be much higher. There's also the part that Kael's group was the reminder of the battle-hardened veteran force, without which the rest of the population would be lambs for the slaughter, leading to the fall of the entire race. Also, Cataclysm was ~5 years ago in lore.

But but muh taurajo! Nevermind the horrors Garrosh and Sylvanas inflicted on the masses, Garithos, a local Lordaeronian commander, was brutal to some High Elves!

Local commander, supreme leader of the Alliance forces. What's the difference lel.

And what does it say for the Horde fanbase that they refer to the same script every time? No one defends Taurajo or Garithos outside of memes. But a lot of Horde big brains are very self-righteous in defending mass genocide and WMD use.

Except you just tried to whitewash the Alliance over Garithos by pretending he was just some random instead of the leader of the Alliance at the time. Or was that somehow a meme on your part?

On the contrary. I haven't seen a single Alliance player not admitting all these shitty actions but let's be honest. The Horde has done at this point 10 times the amount of crimes than the Alliance to the point that you wonder if they are the danger Azeroth should fight instead of the known villains.

Then you haven't paid much attention to this forum.

Man, I can't even forgive the Horde out of character because they talk shit about the Hall of Fame after bandwagoning for OP racials like lemmings. Not even getting into the schadenfreude over High Elves. Fuck the Horde.

The Horde didn't always have OP racials yet they still won the race throughout WoW's entire run. Also, the impact their racials had on PvE was much smaller than the impact of Alliance racials was on PvP at the height of EMFH imbalance (there were times when humans alone outnumbered all other races combined on the top of PvP ladder and they don't even have access to all classes, including the very popular Druids) yet Alliance players are weirdly hush hush about it. And you're kinda putting the cart before the horse in regards to the High Elves. What you're complaining about here is only a reaction to Alliance acting entitled towards High Elves and pretending Blizzard owes them that race. Which is a charade going for over a decade by now.

[MisterBigglez]

Both sides have done shitty things. Both sides still do shitty things. A lot of the time, these crimes are commited by a specific person or group. Teldrassil could be argued that the entire Horde was to blame, but even Nathanos hesitated with the order to burn the tree, and hes an arsehole, so I highly doubt everyone was on board with the attack and just did so because they had to follow orders. Blame the leaders.

[Varodoc]

What I meant is that there wasn't a single Alliance who didn't use excuses for a massacre if you know what I mean. BTW the Tree had it coming.

I'd say most Alliance players forgot about Taurajo. It's usually the Horde players that bring it up because it's one of the two only morally grey things the Alliance did in the last decade.

[Mehrunes]

Both sides have done shitty things. Both sides still do shitty things. A lot of the time, these crimes are commited by a specific person or group. Teldrassil could be argued that the entire Horde was to blame, but even Nathanos hesitated with the order to burn the tree, and hes an arsehole, so I highly doubt everyone was on board with the attack and just did so because they had to follow orders. Blame the leaders.

Nathanos was caught off-guard by a complete shift in the strategy because he was busy arguing the logistics of the previous invasion plan with Saurfang and giving orders around to the soldiers.

[Tuhokoura]

If by the end of BfA the Alliance and the Horde make peace after a new Horde Warchief is chosen, will you (Alliance players) accept and forgive them after all Sylvanas made them do like Anduin probably would, or you would prefer to join a vengeful Tyrande and continue the war until they have lost as much as the night elves did?

There is nothing to forgive. Alliance started the war and should seek forgiveness but get none.

[Shadowferal]

Burning of Teldrassil is a hard thing to forgive.
If Sylvanus gets crucified by her own, that might help placate some feeling.

[Stelio Kontos]

Burning of Teldrassil is a hard thing to forgive.
If Sylvanus gets crucified by her own, that might help placate some feeling.

That won't happen. Looks like Danuser and the zombie elf waifu fanclub want to turn her into the next Kerrigan.

[Mehrunes]

That won't happen. Looks like Danuser and the zombie elf waifu fanclub want to turn her into the next Kerrigan.

Oh, yes, people just love the prospect of Kerrigan anything. That's why the idea that Illidan was going to go full Kerrigan was so well received Blizzard pivoted away from it at last moment. Not to mention the sheer applause for Kerrigan herself (particularly relevant here because Sylvanas is "heavily borrowed" from Kerrigan).

[Nefarious Tea]

I think I could forgive the horde.

After the heads of every orc, goblin, and forsaken are put on pikes to line the road from an emptied orgrimmar to the ruins of Teldrassil

- - - Updated - - -

That won't happen. Looks like Danuser and the zombie elf waifu fanclub want to turn her into the next Kerrigan.

The worst part about Sylvanas is that she had the potential to be an incredibly compelling character but instead we got the elf chick trope and author insert nathanos

[Shadowferal]

I admit, I'm selective.
Tauren..my fellow druids..okay.
Orcs...maybe.
Trolls...we'll let the mojo go. Blood elves...I'll let it pass...once.

Goblins...for what you've done to Azshara, it's almost as bad as the Forsaken did to Teldrassil. Nope.

[Stelio Kontos]

I admit, I'm selective.
Tauren..my fellow druids..okay.
Orcs...maybe.
Trolls...we'll let the mojo go. Blood elves...I'll let it pass...once.

Goblins...for what you've done to Azshara, it's almost as bad as the Forsaken did to Teldrassil. Nope.

I think some parts of the Horde are salvageable. But the Forsaken have, for the most part, been evil from the start. They were shoe-horned into the Horde for game-play reasons in vanilla, like the Night Elves for the Alliance, but they are arguably a much worse fit. And they undercut the Horde's moral standing from the day they were shoehorned in.

I remember when I originally rolled Horde back in Vanilla feeling odd that the Forsaken were in the Horde. The Forsaken were, at best, anti-heroes. You even saw it in the playerbase back then, generally the worst-behaved most antisocial sorts of players gravitated towards Forsaken. I mean, Forsaken rogues don't have a reputation for no reason, like Nelf hunters.

[Yetanothernewbie]

I think some parts of the Horde are salvageable. But the Forsaken have, for the most part, been evil from the start. They were shoe-horned into the Horde for game-play reasons in vanilla, like the Night Elves for the Alliance, but they are arguably a much worse fit. And they undercut the Horde's moral standing from the day they were shoehorned in.

I remember when I originally rolled Horde back in Vanilla feeling odd that the Forsaken were in the Horde. The Forsaken were, at best, anti-heroes. You even saw it in the playerbase back then, generally the worst-behaved most antisocial sorts of players gravitated towards Forsaken. I mean, Forsaken rogues don't have a reputation for no reason, like Nelf hunters.

Forsaken were supposed to be the allies of convience for the Horde. The Night Elves should have been the same for the Alliance but Blizzard didn't pull the trigger on that.