Classic and Retail, the end of an era

[CaptainV]

First of all despite what I may come across as about to say, I do not think classic is a terrible idea in the sense of playing on nostalgia.

But I do think Classic is a terrible idea.

Classic is that example of a game where instead of moving forwards with new ideas, the best one is to revive what is basically a dead idea in the event the game is no longer doing well.

Theres a reason final fantasy 14 1.0 is never comming back, let old things die.

It is, undeniably true Classic has been a financial success and market success in terms of bringing old players back to the game, but its longevity will be its real test, and I am pessimistic about it.

But more than that, I am pessimistic about Retail.

This feels like the ultimate surrender from blizzard, the acceptance that the once bygon era of a great titan has finally passed, and while it is true we will continue to get expansions, we will continue to get new content possibly for years to come.

The soul of the game died when they released it to an older version of itself.

It has never been a truer statement, that the only thing that would finally kill wow, is wow, and they were right.

Even if you love or hate classic, there is -no- denying this is the beginning of a slippery and inevitable downward slope a can of worms that cant be closed. The game now has two realistic paths forward, and both are pretty bleak:

1.

Commit to classic, and retail, keep both going as one overlaps the other in popularity over time, I can genuinley and I do believe they -will- soon be making retail a Buy to Play title in order to get people to play Retail for free while paying for Classic, as it seems like a pretty logical compramise.

But even that would be disaster for blizzard, revenue wise it'd be a great incentiviser, but reality wise, it'd be a damning future for the game.

2.

Let wow die a slow, and painful death, rather than giving it the ending it deserves, after 15 years, after legion's final chapter we really should have just started really thinking about a sequel to wow, rather than an endless ongoing story.

The issue is that a timeless game is only so timeless till the rust cant be shaven off anymore, the game lost its magic, its soul, it lost what made people attached to it, people come and go from wow now more than they ever did, and the irony now, is that they do it, to play wow or rather a version of wow.

Again, I know this all sounds bleak, but I want to look at it more from a sober POV.

I was 16 when I first played Classic 14 years ago, the game has come a very long way since then. It is the end of an era, but I wish it had been an ending that felt more deserved than this.

Watching a franchise I "love" literally get beaten like a dead horse to inevitably choking its last breath is a sad way to watch wow fall. I loved this game once and in my heart I "still" do love this game, or at least I want to, I wanted to feel the magic I felt then.

But ... I admit, for the first time, I think I might actually let go.

Ive been playing 14 lately and reminded of what an idea can look like when someone works heart and soul into improoving it. Shadowbringers felt like the end of one chapter of 14 but it also felt like an ending, a fantastic ending that leads us into new waters. This game doesnt feel like it ever has an ending to chapters, just endless "to be continued" cliffhangers, where they cop out of killing main villians for fear of running out of them. Likewise, they never commit to killing heroes because then they'd have to flesh out the non linear main characters.

When was the last time you saw Moira Bronzebeard get a main role? Or saw Gallywix do something significantly story relevent that wasnt about his self-indulgant profits?

When was the last time you saw these characters actually develop. The irony is the most char development ive seen in BFA is Jaina and Thrall and while its good to see both got their needed love, same with Saurfang and Baine, the two iconic chars of this expansion, Sylvanas and Anduin, are largely shoehorned into backstory chars with an almost completley absent presence.

Talanji played her role and is now just side character material, Tyrande who had a major stake in this story is just, getting nothing out of it, and should have been a major if not "the" biggest player in the Azshara story with Malfurion, both having the biggest personal stake in that.

Instead, we get Lor'themar does something, Jaina does something, Genn does something, Thalissra does something.

Its hollow, empty, soulless, like the game.

As I said...

I am pessimistic because it feels like the "end" of an era, the end of the things that gave this game that rush and soul, all the refferences to the past feel there, and connect well, but the present, the future? Neither feel like they have a direction, or a purpose.

It'd be nice if we knew where this was really "going" but it just feels like endless seasonal improvs from a writing team with no real clue what they -want- anymore.

I cant keep lying to myself and say "I forgive you" when I know its time to stop, classic was the towel thrown in, the sign they just "gave up" because they saw the potential in playing on nostalgia, than developing the future.

Id say if anything, if I could beg blizzard to do one thing.

Make the next expansion the last, make WoW 2, its "Time" to move on, give us new characters, new stories, and a new journey to start over from the beginning, a chance to rewrite the book, a chance to end one saga, and start a new one.

Make the subscription between games shared, by all means, you already have with classic, its a non excuse to say that people wont pay to play a new wow, nevermind an old one.

Ive wanted a new wow since Legion, I really hope after WC3, after the magic that made me love this franchise, blizzard has one last ounce of inspiration left to give us something -new- and interesting.

So its... a bitter sweet kind of hope, im sad to see the end of one legacy, but the last shred of hope I have left, believes they will end it rightly, and give us a new legacy to begin.


TLR buddy!

The game lost its soul, im hopeful for the future but not for the game thats there now.

Id like to see wow 2, or WC4 then WoW 2, but I fear the devs are too content with Classic and will use it to get lazy with development, and effort.

I want to like the game again, the game I knew with my friends 14 years ago, but im content to say im playing a new MMO at the moment, and im not sure if ill come back this time.

[therealstegblob]

Yeah, no. I rip on Blizzard and their terrible choices harder than anyone, but the release of Classic has nothing to do with the health or how Blizzard feels about Retail. In fact, it was literally only released once a couple of original devs literally begged Kotick to release Classic and showed him how much money Blizzard was losing out on by not doing it.

[Fred Skinner]

The interesting part about this is probably that i have the impression the classic reboot has a way more successfull start than the expacs of the last 8 years.

While i think this will not continue, and people will stop playing classic as fast as they created a character. People are curious. Once the curiosity is gone, people will quit or return to retail.

I am sure the devs look for ways to keep these players. And i am sure they love to argument with ".. because it is successfull in classic".

[Dystemper]

Classic is showing Blizzard where they fucked up and how hard they fucked up. I dont think Blizzard or Activision were prepared for how popular Classic is. I think this has taken them by surprise and now they will scramble to ride that wave and cultivate it. Will they scrap existing plans to make changes in light of Classic? Possibly , even likely.

I can imagine shareholders and BOD members looking at Classic success and telling Blizzard " Do more of that , Right now"

[RoKPaNda]

They're just making $15/mo off of nostalgia at the moment. Classic is fun but the content is finite. When the next retail expansion is released, as long as it's decent (read: Not WoD/BFA) all but the most hardcore of Vanilla fans will forget that classic even exists. Until they come up with their next nostalgia cash grab anyway.

Classic is showing Blizzard where they fucked up and how hard they fucked up. I dont think Blizzard or Activision were prepared for how popular Classic is. I think this has taken them by surprise and now they will scramble to ride that wave and cultivate it. Will they scrap existing plans to make changes in light of Classic? Possibly , even likely.

I can imagine shareholders and BOD members looking at Classic success and telling Blizzard " Do more of that , Right now"

Can we at least wait until we see where it is after a month or so before we jump to any conclusions like that? Everyone knew it would be wildly popular at first.

[Dystemper]

The interesting part about this is probably that i have the impression the classic reboot has a way more successfull start than the expacs of the last 8 years.

While i think this will not continue, and people will stop playing classic as fast as they created a character. People are curious. Once the curiosity is gone, people will quit or return to retail.

I am sure the devs look for ways to keep these players. And i am sure they love to argument with ".. because it is successfull in classic".

Its been close to a month and it shows no sign of slowing down. IN fact it appears to be growing how many I have met in classic saying they just popped in to see what it was about and now they are hooked. Last time i checked on My retail accounts, its a ghost town

[Fred Skinner]

Its been close to a month and it shows no sign of slowing down.

Well, twitch numbers have dropped largely already, queue times have dropped largely. It seems classic already is on decline.

[Dystemper]

Classic has also brought back the hard core AH players. Those people who loved the challenge of making gold and playing the AH . I am even getting Whispers from Korean and Chinese Gold sellers again

[Th3Scourge]

First of all despite what I may come across as about to say, I do not think classic is a terrible idea in the sense of playing on nostalgia.

But I do think Classic is a terrible idea.

Classic is that example of a game where instead of moving forwards with new ideas, the best one is to revive what is basically a dead idea in the event the game is no longer doing well.

Theres a reason final fantasy 14 1.0 is never comming back, let old things die.

It is, undeniably true Classic has been a financial success and market success in terms of bringing old players back to the game, but its longevity will be its real test, and I am pessimistic about it.

But more than that, I am pessimistic about Retail.

This feels like the ultimate surrender from blizzard, the acceptance that the once bygon era of a great titan has finally passed, and while it is true we will continue to get expansions, we will continue to get new content possibly for years to come.

The soul of the game died when they released it to an older version of itself.

It has never been a truer statement, that the only thing that would finally kill wow, is wow, and they were right.

Even if you love or hate classic, there is -no- denying this is the beginning of a slippery and inevitable downward slope a can of worms that cant be closed. The game now has two realistic paths forward, and both are pretty bleak:

1.

Commit to classic, and retail, keep both going as one overlaps the other in popularity over time, I can genuinley and I do believe they -will- soon be making retail a Buy to Play title in order to get people to play Retail for free while paying for Classic, as it seems like a pretty logical compramise.

But even that would be disaster for blizzard, revenue wise it'd be a great incentiviser, but reality wise, it'd be a damning future for the game.

2.

Let wow die a slow, and painful death, rather than giving it the ending it deserves, after 15 years, after legion's final chapter we really should have just started really thinking about a sequel to wow, rather than an endless ongoing story.

The issue is that a timeless game is only so timeless till the rust cant be shaven off anymore, the game lost its magic, its soul, it lost what made people attached to it, people come and go from wow now more than they ever did, and the irony now, is that they do it, to play wow or rather a version of wow.

Again, I know this all sounds bleak, but I want to look at it more from a sober POV.

I was 16 when I first played Classic 14 years ago, the game has come a very long way since then. It is the end of an era, but I wish it had been an ending that felt more deserved than this.

Watching a franchise I "love" literally get beaten like a dead horse to inevitably choking its last breath is a sad way to watch wow fall. I loved this game once and in my heart I "still" do love this game, or at least I want to, I wanted to feel the magic I felt then.

But ... I admit, for the first time, I think I might actually let go.

Ive been playing 14 lately and reminded of what an idea can look like when someone works heart and soul into improoving it. Shadowbringers felt like the end of one chapter of 14 but it also felt like an ending, a fantastic ending that leads us into new waters. This game doesnt feel like it ever has an ending to chapters, just endless "to be continued" cliffhangers, where they cop out of killing main villians for fear of running out of them. Likewise, they never commit to killing heroes because then they'd have to flesh out the non linear main characters.

When was the last time you saw Moira Bronzebeard get a main role? Or saw Gallywix do something significantly story relevent that wasnt about his self-indulgant profits?

When was the last time you saw these characters actually develop. The irony is the most char development ive seen in BFA is Jaina and Thrall and while its good to see both got their needed love, same with Saurfang and Baine, the two iconic chars of this expansion, Sylvanas and Anduin, are largely shoehorned into backstory chars with an almost completley absent presence.

Talanji played her role and is now just side character material, Tyrande who had a major stake in this story is just, getting nothing out of it, and should have been a major if not "the" biggest player in the Azshara story with Malfurion, both having the biggest personal stake in that.

Instead, we get Lor'themar does something, Jaina does something, Genn does something, Thalissra does something.

Its hollow, empty, soulless, like the game.

As I said...

I am pessimistic because it feels like the "end" of an era, the end of the things that gave this game that rush and soul, all the refferences to the past feel there, and connect well, but the present, the future? Neither feel like they have a direction, or a purpose.

It'd be nice if we knew where this was really "going" but it just feels like endless seasonal improvs from a writing team with no real clue what they -want- anymore.

I cant keep lying to myself and say "I forgive you" when I know its time to stop, classic was the towel thrown in, the sign they just "gave up" because they saw the potential in playing on nostalgia, than developing the future.

Id say if anything, if I could beg blizzard to do one thing.

Make the next expansion the last, make WoW 2, its "Time" to move on, give us new characters, new stories, and a new journey to start over from the beginning, a chance to rewrite the book, a chance to end one saga, and start a new one.

Make the subscription between games shared, by all means, you already have with classic, its a non excuse to say that people wont pay to play a new wow, nevermind an old one.

Ive wanted a new wow since Legion, I really hope after WC3, after the magic that made me love this franchise, blizzard has one last ounce of inspiration left to give us something -new- and interesting.

So its... a bitter sweet kind of hope, im sad to see the end of one legacy, but the last shred of hope I have left, believes they will end it rightly, and give us a new legacy to begin.


TLR buddy!

The game lost its soul, im hopeful for the future but not for the game thats there now.

Id like to see wow 2, or WC4 then WoW 2, but I fear the devs are too content with Classic and will use it to get lazy with development, and effort.

I want to like the game again, the game I knew with my friends 14 years ago, but im content to say im playing a new MMO at the moment, and im not sure if ill come back this time.

Actually TLDR

The success of classic should be a wake up call to the gaming industry.

[guisadop]

as long as it's decent (read: Not WoD/BFA)

That's a very, very high mark to reach. It's not been decent for what, 3 expansions now?

[Dystemper]

Well, twitch numbers have dropped largely already, queue times have dropped largely. It classic already is on decline.

Twitch numbers would drop thats expected. Que times are down because they were forced to add more realms and they had free transfers . Hardly on the decline . Example ,the guild I play on a medium realm, just added 60 new members today alone . Anecdotal sure but a indicator. The AH are full and active

[RoKPaNda]

That's a very, very high mark to reach. It's not been decent for what, 3 expansions now?

Legion was quite good.

[Dystemper]

That's a very, very high mark to reach. It's not been decent for what, 3 expansions now?

Honestly I have no faith in the current Dev team to actually put out a quality product

[Fred Skinner]

Twitch numbers would drop thats expected.

Well, it is also largely expected that the number of classic players declines massively. And this will happen.

[sopeonaroap]

Well, twitch numbers have dropped largely already, queue times have dropped largely. It seems classic already is on decline.

they opened a bunch of new servers and opened transfers. there are more medium or higher pop servers now than there were 2 weeks ago

it's still very busy in-game and teh way they're staggering content release it will ebb and flow but there are a lot of people who want to play classic but don't want to play retail

[Phuongvi]

Even if I am not a fan of classic, I could see how bad the manage the shit show when they put so few servers at the launch.What a sad move
Of course, people who are playing Retail are going to check on Classic and create a toon, and of course you are going to bring some more people from the private community. I really doubt they couldn’t see that coming.

How much people they add ? I guess we will never know, they only things they will say it’s they have now 100 millions toons created on Classic but no disclosure of any accounts number

Anyway, Retails seems fine there is a page of full servers on retail US and only full servers for Classic, the one with Asmon. Like I said, we are 3 weeks from the launch and people are dropping like fly. What a waste.My guess its the retail community who cause the traffic they add a couple of new subs thus, the orinal few servers at the initial launch

[MoanaLisa]

Its been close to a month and it shows no sign of slowing down. IN fact it appears to be growing how many I have met in classic saying they just popped in to see what it was about and now they are hooked. Last time i checked on My retail accounts, its a ghost town

It's been a little over two weeks in fact since August 27th.

One "metric" that people were talking about for a while was how many people were looking at the site Classic Forum versus the one for retail. It's kind of a stupid metric but there's no doubt that traffic in the Classic forum is down. The number of people viewing and posting to it seems to be down too. You can argue that queues are down because of the new servers and you would be partially right but no one is talking about Blizzard's oft-stated desire to be very aggressive in reducing layers. There have been many clues that Blizzard is making good on that promise which certainly doesn't indicate that concurrent logins have been increasing.

I wish both games well of course. If they both succeed then everyone who plays benefits. But you cannot be blind to other signs that the hype has now dissipated and that there is a separation going on from those that come back for the first month and those that stay. The best indicator that Blizzard has will be how many extend their subscription beyond the first 30 days. Here's hoping it's many for the sake of both games. Anyone that states that they know that it's either going up for certain or down for certain is being dishonest. There are clues; there is no hard data and no facts available and likely there will never be.

OP is wrong. It's not the end of anything. Classic was cheap to do once they figured it out and basically an easy win.

[legendaryusername]

Legion was quite good.

No
/10char

[xintoc]

All I expect from a new expansion is that they make classes more unique and complex. My huge issue with BFA has been that they didn't balance classes when some of them were seriously under-performing. The much needed fixes arrived months too late when it should have taken them a week to roll a hotfix.

Also we have so many dead talents that never get picked, no real choices with azerite traits since you get stuck with the highest azerite gear(ilvl) while progressing. For all the 120 levels that we have, we should have meaningful choices for ALL classes. Picking between 3 different ways to move faster isn't interesting and should belong to some utility talents tab(with others like defensives, cc, resource management and buffs) or we should have some spells that have shared cds and use situationally.
Well what I mean is that Tier 100 should define the way we play the class. At the moment we have multiple versions of the same talent that does the same thing. For example :
1. Holy priest -> Light of the Naaru and Apotheosis.
2. Guardian druid -> Rend and Tear and Pulverize (Lunar Beam completely ignored).
3. Retribution paladin -> Inquisition and Crusade
4. Shadow priest -> Legacy of the Void and Dark Ascension

The real choice here is between an added global cooldown in your rotation or a passive effect that might not be as good.

Also there are some talents that I don't like personally from the design aspect and could be improved somehow:
1. Brewmaster -> Special delivery
2. Windwalker -> Hit Combo
3. Retribution -> Consecration (compared to Wake of Ashes and Divine judgment feels like it doesn't fit)
4. Elemental -> Liquid Magma totem (not worth taking for most content and does pretty much the same as Chain lightning and Earthquake)
5. Frost Dk -> Icy Talons (Just uninteresting... Would be interesting if it were combined with Frozen Pulse talent)
6. Vengeance DH -> Razor Spikes and Charred Flesh(Fiery Brand cd is too long for this to be good. Having a snare while demon spikes are up is kinda useless?)
7. Protection Paladin -> Aegis of Light (Cool spell, but only 20% reduction and 6 seconds. There are very few situations to utilize this properly)
8. Enhancement Shaman -> Totem Mastery (Only way to see Totems as Enhancement shaman when playing new allied races, but requires you to take the talent)

TLDR:
We have to wait and see what the new expansion brings for classes. The current state of the game lacks interesting choices and complexity. We need to see our characters have differences from others. Azerite gear brings some diversity, but getting a higher item level piece forces to play with random traits.
We don't need new characters, but we do need a better design.

[Fred Skinner]

they opened a bunch of new servers and opened transfers. there are more medium or higher pop servers now than there were 2 weeks ago

Actually, i think the realm transfers have solved a lot of capacity problems and not new realms.

As there were large queues, people stopped trying at start, and try now.

Once that curiosity phase is over, classic is dropping in player numbers as fast as it won them.