Rolling on lockboxes

[Goldfingaz]

Now I understand what you meant. And I do think there's a difference.

Everyone can pick mining as their profession, some decided to pick other professions with other benefits. It's not the same with classes because if everyone picks rogue the game won't function. I think the silent agreement that people should use the specific unique abilities of their class to support the group does not extend to professions. There is also the thing that a person without the mining profession will have no use for any ore, apart from selling it, while the miner "supposedly" need the ore for blacksmithing (I know, not in all cases). Which kinda does lead me to my next point: I don't like when people roll on chests either and the winner gets all the contents, I prefer to check the contents and distribute them based on who needs what. If a great caster staff is found in a chest and the Paladin takes it to sell when the mage in the party needs it, or when a rogue loots mana potions with the intent to vendor them when the healer needs them, I don't approve.

I enjoyed your response, you actually wrote something meaningful. My concerns with it however: You can open chests without Rogues via Engineering and Blacksmiths and just because you don't have mining doesn't mean you don't have use for the ore. You may be a blacksmith leatherworker because you're a masochist for example, you can still use that ore.

However under your idea of "I think the silent agreement that people should use the specific unique abilities of their class to support the group does not extend to professions." would lead me to believe that you would be ok if an Engineer or a Blacksmith opens the locked chest and keeps the contents. Would I be correct?

[Sezh]

I enjoyed your response, you actually wrote something meaningful. My concerns with it however: You can open chests without Rogues via Engineering and Blacksmiths and just because you don't have mining doesn't mean you don't have use for the ore. You may be a blacksmith leatherworker because you're a masochist for example, you can still use that ore.

However under your idea of "I think the silent agreement that people should use the specific unique abilities of their class to support the group does not extend to professions." would lead me to believe that you would be ok if an Engineer or a Blacksmith opens the locked chest and keeps the contents. Would I be correct?

I was having trouble formulating a perfect argument for why I feel the way I feel, and your second paragraph does ruin my argument somewhat. I think I also feel that you got to combine all of this with the idea that all lootable gear found in a dungeon should be distributed fairly. On boss loot we roll need or greed, on chests that contain loot we either roll greed (i.e. roll for chest before opening) or we open it and distribute the contents based on who needs what. And most of the time, what people care about in chests is the equipment, most people I think wouldn't make a scene if a person loots a chest containing a mushroom and a tin ore.

If in a group 1 person dies before a boss and while running back through the dungeon the rest of the team kills a boss, should the 5th person not be allowed to take part in the loot? After all, the others used their class abilities without the help of the 5th guy to procure loot by killing the boss, in the same way a rogue procures loot by unlocking a chest without the help of the people who supposedly should not be allowed to take part in the loot.

[scelero]

I can't believe this has gone for 38 pages. Let me catch everyone up on how it really works:

If a lockbox and anything drops and it's rolled for, WATCH for who NEEDS. People need all the time on shit they don't need. This is what you need to watch for, not rogues thinking it's their lockboxes. Don't like it, watch them roll NEED, then roll NEED yourself.

As for the locked chests, you can't force a rogue to open it if you clear to it. It's not part of clearing the dungeon and they can keep going on their merry way.

I think everyone became entitled when blizzard forced the loot rolling option to include DISENCHANTING an item. And yes, back in WRATH people expected an enchanter to collect all the blues, DE them and hand them out to a winner at the end of a dungeon BEFORE this became something standard in the game. So now everyone can be a different profession and get free mats that otherwise had to buy from the AH from... guess what AN ENCHANTER. Now anyone can make money like an enchanter. No, absolutely NOT.

I feel this goes for rogues, blacksmiths, engineers, or anyone who can open a locked chest. You took the time OUTSIDE the instance to be able to do that once you got INSIDE the instance, so why should we benefit from that when we ourselves did nothing but draw luck and got someone who could unlock it. If you can go into TRADE CHAT and sell the same service to your community, then the same rules apply when you go into an instance. This is like people who think they deserve free shit from a friend who comes into something they don't. You didn't earn the right. And people who think otherwise are the scum of the earth. Leechers.

[Sangris]

Rogues don't have any priority right on lockboxes. I say that as a rogue player.

Same with locked chests.

One of the reasons to bring a rogue is so they can open the locked chests/lockboxes. If the rogue is the one to take all the loot then there wouldn't be any reason to bring one anyway.

[tikcol]

Oh but yes ofc, and I'll start charging healers for my conjured water at the start of the run. Class perks you know

[Katchii]

Lockboxes are for the party, you have to roll on them anyway.

Chests are a different story. I can see both sides, however I side more on it's up to the Rogue to decide how that scenario plays out because they're the ones who hold the power there. The group can't open it without them and trying to MAKE them roll for it if they don't want to may not end well.

Different Rogues play differently and different groups will work differently. As a Rogue myself, if it's a chest I can get to myself I'd say it's mine because I don't need anyone to help me get to it and open it, if it's a chest in an area that requires group effort to clear the mobs away, it's group loot because it was a group effort.

[ThelorenEntarus]

But the rogue is entitled to my healing? The Mage's food? The Warlock's summon? The Paladin's Buff? Rogues bring NOTHING of utility to a raid except lock picking. The least they can do is provide something of value.

This is correct by my standards, but Blizz made it so that rares in a chest can't be rolled on. They rely on the decency of others to work it out, co-operation.

I may be wrong. But by my recollection, this wasn't even a question back in vanilla. In vanilla, it was understood that all people that played Rogues were ninjas and griefers. Total dicks basically.

I was a Blacksmith and would never charge anyone for my keys, we're all in a dungeon FFS, just use the normal lewt rules on any fancy stuff. Yes I'd take the gold (silver really), but everything else in the box is fair game by the normal rules of loot. If its got herbs and there's a herbalist - give them the herbs. Why be a dick?

Lockboxes, also everyone's loot, but never forget rogues are a-holes. No exceptions. It's even a part of their class fantasy.

I pity them myself.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Tbh, i wouldnt try to read intentions into what comes up as a roll or not. Its more likely just a limitation of tech at the time.
Its up to us players to decide what we think should be rolled on or not.

That's a good point, and I've already decided

[Will]

No of course rogues shouldn't.

1. To even get to the lock, they may have needed the group's help, though not necessarily
2. Rogues aren't the only ones who can lockpick. So can engineers (with seaforium) and I think (not sure) that blacksmiths can make skeleton keys

- - - Updated - - -

Rogues don't have any priority right on lockboxes. I say that as a rogue player.

Same with locked chests.

One of the reasons to bring a rogue is so they can open the locked chests/lockboxes. If the rogue is the one to take all the loot then there wouldn't be any reason to bring one anyway.

Aside from their damage output, too? Because way I see it, since professions can also open locks, by that logic we may as well not bring a rogue at all.

[Sangris]

No of course rogues shouldn't.

1. To even get to the lock, they may have needed the group's help, though not necessarily
2. Rogues aren't the only ones who can lockpick. So can engineers (with seaforium) and I think (not sure) that blacksmiths can make skeleton keys

- - - Updated - - -



Aside from their damage output, too? Because way I see it, since professions can also open locks, by that logic we may as well not bring a rogue at all.

Let me rephrase, then. There would be no reason to bring a rogue specifically for their lockpicking skills if the rogue just decides to bag everything that's locked.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I'll just wait for everyone to leave and open it alone.

Totally not stealing loot, glad you've shown your true colors.

- - - Updated - - -

Lockboxes are for the party, you have to roll on them anyway.

Chests are a different story. I can see both sides, however I side more on it's up to the Rogue to decide how that scenario plays out because they're the ones who hold the power there. The group can't open it without them and trying to MAKE them roll for it if they don't want to may not end well.

Different Rogues play differently and different groups will work differently. As a Rogue myself, if it's a chest I can get to myself I'd say it's mine because I don't need anyone to help me get to it and open it, if it's a chest in an area that requires group effort to clear the mobs away, it's group loot because it was a group effort.

Chests are loot for the party. If it were Rogue loot it would say Class; Rogue like on tier gear. But it doesn't.

Lockpicking is class skill like healing or taunting or buffing.

[Katchii]

Chests are loot for the party. If it were Rogue loot it would say Class; Rogue like on tier gear. But it doesn't.

Lockpicking is class skill like healing or taunting or buffing.

I get where you're coming from, but where's the rule or requirement that says that? What about other drops that don't say Class:Rogue or Class: Whatever when the item is clearly intended for that class? Like a Ranged weapon (bow, gun, x-bow) which is clearly intended for the Hunter, a Shield clearly intended for the Warrior, an Intelligence Leather piece clearly intended for a Druid, etc... Just because it doesn't have a class designation doesn't mean it's meant for anybody.

Lockpicking is a class skill, but unlike healing, taunting and buffing isn't even remotely required for a group to clear the dungeon as evidenced by the fact you can clear a dungeon without a Rogue in the group.

Regardless, as I stated, it's ultimately up to the Rogue to decide how this plays out because they're the ones who HAVE to open it. Each one will operate differently, and I stated my mentality; if it took a group effort to get to it it's group loot if the Rogue can get to it by themselves and do that, I say it's theirs....but honestly I would probably ask in group because I wouldn't want to piss anybody off because of one chest.

Point being, I don't think the group is automatically entitled to the loot in the chest simply because they have a Rogue in the group, because without the Rogue they wouldn't even have access to it in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -

Let me rephrase, then. There would be no reason to bring a rogue specifically for their lockpicking skills if the rogue just decides to bag everything that's locked.

I don't disagree, but it's ultimately up to them how they decide to deal with it. If they want to be an asshole and do that, they have the right...doesn't mean there won't be consequences, but it is their choice to make.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I get where you're coming from, but where's the rule or requirement that says that? What about other drops that don't say Class:Rogue or Class: Whatever when the item is clearly intended for that class? Like a Ranged weapon (bow, gun, x-bow) which is clearly intended for the Hunter, a Shield clearly intended for the Warrior, an Intelligence Leather piece clearly intended for a Druid, etc... Just because it doesn't have a class designation doesn't mean it's meant for anybody.

Lockpicking is a class skill, but unlike healing, taunting and buffing isn't even remotely required for a group to clear the dungeon as evidenced by the fact you can clear a dungeon without a Rogue in the group.

Regardless, as I stated, it's ultimately up to the Rogue to decide how this plays out because they're the ones who HAVE to open it. Each one will operate differently, and I stated my mentality; if it took a group effort to get to it it's group loot if the Rogue can get to it by themselves and do that, I say it's theirs....but honestly I would probably ask in group because I wouldn't want to piss anybody off because of one chest.

Point being, I don't think the group is automatically entitled to the loot in the chest simply because they have a Rogue in the group, because without the Rogue they wouldn't even have access to it in the first place.

Well, if it isn't clearly marked: then its up to the community really.. think about certain things you do in life that don't particularly have any rules applying to them. If you let someone "out" while driving you normally get a wave back. Letting people out and waving aren't laws, but we do it. Holding doors is a similar thing. Its all really part of a social pact. So if you want to use a poll, this one says it isn't Rogue loot.

If you want a better example: Hunter loot. Its a meme and has been since vanilla. Technically Hunters can use anything but wands I think, so they need on whatever they might use whether it would be more efficient for say, a 2H Warrior to use. They CAN, but they normally don't after the community because better informed on such things. My ex-gf used to need on anything with a high DPS as a Hunter until I told her she should be looking for things with stats, and not weapons like Ravager which just has a cool proc that will likely never be used by her. It was an "Oh!" moment for her, similar to how it likely is for many.

Rogues are free to be shady if they want, sure. But they will likely be named, and describing it as anything but shady would be tough. "waiting until no one is around..." is how a thief would describe stealing. If I were healing, I don't have to heal or rez a Rogue, but its expected, just like unlocking things won in a roll would be. Rogues have lockpick as a sort of flavor spell, not because anything lock belongs to them. Intelligence Leather can be used my both Pallies and Shammies... I mean another meme is seeing Paladins in dresses for healing because cloth generally has better itemization for healing.

Also, Engineers and Blacksmiths CAN open these boxes. Also, when a Righteous Orb drops, in my experience, everyone rolls... because they are lucrative, just like boxes/chests. And yet, only Enchanters can technically use them.

Logically you're just a ninja if you do any of this bullshit or gymnastics to take loot as a Rogue.

[Thereturn]

This one is so simple. It is a great social experiment to weed out the dicks.

If your not a dick: open it and let everyone roll for it.
If you are a dick: ninja loot it or refuse to open it.

The fact that this is even a discussion is fucking sad.

[Katchii]

Well, if it isn't clearly marked: then its up to the community really.. think about certain things you do in life that don't particularly have any rules applying to them. If you let someone "out" while driving you normally get a wave back. Letting people out and waving aren't laws, but we do it. Holding doors is a similar thing. Its all really part of a social pact. So if you want to use a poll, this one says it isn't Rogue loot.

If you want a better example: Hunter loot. Its a meme and has been since vanilla. Technically Hunters can use anything but wands I think, so they need on whatever they might use whether it would be more efficient for say, a 2H Warrior to use. They CAN, but they normally don't after the community because better informed on such things. My ex-gf used to need on anything with a high DPS as a Hunter until I told her she should be looking for things with stats, and not weapons like Ravager which just has a cool proc that will likely never be used by her. It was an "Oh!" moment for her, similar to how it likely is for many.

Rogues are free to be shady if they want, sure. But they will likely be named, and describing it as anything but shady would be tough. "waiting until no one is around..." is how a thief would describe stealing. If I were healing, I don't have to heal or rez a Rogue, but its expected, just like unlocking things won in a roll would be. Rogues have lockpick as a sort of flavor spell, not because anything lock belongs to them. Intelligence Leather can be used my both Pallies and Shammies... I mean another meme is seeing Paladins in dresses for healing because cloth generally has better itemization for healing.

Also, Engineers and Blacksmiths CAN open these boxes. Also, when a Righteous Orb drops, in my experience, everyone rolls... because they are lucrative, just like boxes/chests. And yet, only Enchanters can technically use them.

Logically you're just a ninja if you do any of this bullshit or gymnastics to take loot as a Rogue.

I don't disagree with any of your points, I just disagree with the mentality that by default the chest is group loot and that the group is entitled to it because there happens to be a Rogue or Blacksmith or Engineering that can open it. Just like you're not entitled to have a door held open for you or any of the other common courtesy things that are pretty much social norms.

It's up to the Rogue/ Opener how or if it gets distributed because without them you don't get it anyway.

Of course they'll be labeled and shamed. But it's still their choice.

Back to your healing analogy...it's not a viable comparison IMO. Healing is required in this game, letting your DPS die isn't really a viable option in most cases and deliberately choosing to let someone die who you can heal is not only a dick move it's also incredibly stupid given that you need those people to clear the content and get things done. Granted, there are exceptions where letting someone die is a viable strategy where letting that person die while saving another one or just letting that one dude who grabbed aggro die to save the group or whatever... but that's not really a choice about healing that's a strategic thing.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Totally not stealing loot, glad you've shown your true colors.

- - - Updated - - -

From whom? There's no one else in the party.

[Pozz]

I wouldn't lose my mind over it if they needed, but I feel like common courtesy is to not do it. If you need the skill, pm the winner and ask if you can open it.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't disagree with any of your points, I just disagree with the mentality that by default the chest is group loot and that the group is entitled to it because there happens to be a Rogue or Blacksmith or Engineering that can open it. Just like you're not entitled to have a door held open for you or any of the other common courtesy things that are pretty much social norms.

It's up to the Rogue/ Opener how or if it gets distributed because without them you don't get it anyway.

Of course they'll be labeled and shamed. But it's still their choice.

Back to your healing analogy...it's not a viable comparison IMO. Healing is required in this game, letting your DPS die isn't really a viable option in most cases and deliberately choosing to let someone die who you can heal is not only a dick move it's also incredibly stupid given that you need those people to clear the content and get things done. Granted, there are exceptions where letting someone die is a viable strategy where letting that person die while saving another one or just letting that one dude who grabbed aggro die to save the group or whatever... but that's not really a choice about healing that's a strategic thing.

Without the party the rogue wouldn't get the chest either.

Engineering and blacksmithing I consider slightly different because they actually use their resources to open it.

[Katchii]

From whom? There's no one else in the party.

That's like waiting for someone to leave the room so you can take something without them noticing. I get your point, but this just makes you a shady sneaky asshole instead of a blatant one.

I wouldn't lose my mind over it if they needed, but I feel like common courtesy is to not do it. If you need the skill, pm the winner and ask if you can open it.

Pretty much this, I don't see it as that big of a deal. Just saying the person opening the locked chest holds all the power here and it's therefore their decision how the situation goes.

Without the party the rogue wouldn't get the chest either.

The vast majority of the time this is true, but there are a few chests where a careful Rogue can stealth and get to it, especially if specced into Master of Deception. But if they were going to do that why not just go into the instance solo, then this whole argument is moot since they're solo.

Engineering and blacksmithing I consider slightly different because they actually use their resources to open it.

I don't know how much those items cost to make so can't really comment. In principal I don't think they're any more entitled than a Rogue, though. If the item costs a ton of money I would have to take that into consideration.

[Aeriedk]

If the chest is locked, i don't see why not, since the party can't open it anyway, lockboxes, meh w/e

Rogues are not the only people that can open lockboxes.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I don't disagree with any of your points, I just disagree with the mentality that by default the chest is group loot and that the group is entitled to it because there happens to be a Rogue or Blacksmith or Engineering that can open it. Just like you're not entitled to have a door held open for you or any of the other common courtesy things that are pretty much social norms.

It's up to the Rogue/ Opener how or if it gets distributed because without them you don't get it anyway.

Of course they'll be labeled and shamed. But it's still their choice.

Back to your healing analogy...it's not a viable comparison IMO. Healing is required in this game, letting your DPS die isn't really a viable option in most cases and deliberately choosing to let someone die who you can heal is not only a dick move it's also incredibly stupid given that you need those people to clear the content and get things done. Granted, there are exceptions where letting someone die is a viable strategy where letting that person die while saving another one or just letting that one dude who grabbed aggro die to save the group or whatever... but that's not really a choice about healing that's a strategic thing.

Healing isn't required - you aren't entitled to my heals just like I'm not entitled to your stuff. You can just bandage yourself.. as others have said, the rest of the group will likely succeed without you anyway... you can 4 man most things. See how stupid that sounds?

Since this is a community game, and factually this isn't Rogue specific loot, its been decided that taking a chest like that would be ninjaing.

- - - Updated - - -

From whom? There's no one else in the party.

I guess I can just kick you before you can ninja it.