4 boss difficulties - the name of accessibility ruins all motivation to do it

[NineSpine]

Your point would be valid if people wouldn't run the same PvE content, for months at end, for progress. Running the same content 'over and over' has never been that big of an issue.
I suspect this, too, isn't that big of an issue in itself.

The vast majority of raiders used to be continually pushing into new content throughout the entire tier, only reaching full farm toward the end at best. Now, the vast majority are almost immediately repeating content they already beat on lower difficulties.

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Speak for yourself, you still can't explain why running LFR has any merit for a mythic raider when you can do heroic splits, this would refute my point, but the only thing that comes from you are brainless responses.

I am dwarfed by your logic and intellectual prowess.

[Forogil]

They could remove LFR-difficulty and keep Normal and have it replace LFR as the way it currently is (queueable).
People would need to communicate better and not just zone in and autoattack/frostbolt the boss to death = more rewarding killing a boss.

Harder LFR have been tried several times, and has always been a failure that doesn't seem more rewarding.

[Frozenbro]

I am dwarfed by your logic and intellectual prowess.

Well i tried, didnt expect much from your little casual bubble in the first place but was worth the shot, its a forum after all.

[NineSpine]

Well i tried, didnt expect much from your little casual bubble in the first place but was worth the shot, its a forum after all.

I'm glad that you convinced yourself that we are involved in some kind of professional debate where you get points for pedantry and sophistry. Truly impressed.

[Kyphael]

No, it wasn't. It was something 12 year olds commented on, and only because it was the sparkliest thing in their line of sight. Those past the age of reason did not and never have given a single shit.

Your edge is showing.

[Frozenbro]

I'm glad that you convinced yourself that we are involved in some kind of professional debate where you get points for pedantry and sophistry. Truly impressed.

No, im just laughing at your lack of reading skill and you thinking that what happens in your little bubble is the reality, when running lower difficulties is a symptom of titanforging which increases the value of split raids, also still waiting for the argument that explains why would a mythic raider run LFR, i know a casual like you can't, but im giving you the chance.

[Akibaboy]

Also, it's super bizarre that I said the game should be designed for regular people, not mythic raiders, and that led you on a rant about how I hate regular people and people with disabilities. It's almost like you were looking for a thing to be whiny and outraged about, instead of listening to what I said. I said "Don't cater to mythic raiders" and your response is "WHY DO YOU HATE DISABLED CHILDREN?!?!?!?!"

It's interesting that you consider cutting 75% of the content feasibly available to each group of people as a positive. Notice how I don't seek to separate groups into "normal" or otherwise. I consider each group at each level, Mythic included, as a valid experience that should be available to them in its entirety. Regardless of which group you're not designing the game for, mythic or otherwise, in the 4 tiers of players each group gets less when its all smashed into 1.

It's also interesting that yet again, it seems like we're derailing the discussion of actual implementation with another superfluous, defensive reaction. I gave examples of people who'd be presented an incomplete experience if your design was implemented. I used your terminology of "tough" in my application and disagreed with that approach... nothing more. I guess I should've expected as much because the discussion here is primarily based around deflection as argument. If response is a "rant", then I don't know what to tell you - the fact that you can't have your ideas' implementation consequences extrapolated out even a little is an indication of how poorly thought out your design ideals are. Please quote a particular sentence that you'd characterize as "whiny" or fueled by "outrage".

[NineSpine]

No, im just laughing at your lack of reading skill and you thinking that what happens in your little bubble is the reality, when running lower difficulties is a symptom of titanforging which increases the value of split raids, also still waiting for the argument that explains why would a mythic raider run LFR, i know a casual like you can't, but im giving you the chance.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I (a casual) was speaking out of turn to such an elite, intellectual titam such as yourself. Oh high one, please do not let my lowly, filthy existence pester you one minute further. I beg of you, oh he was been ordained by those whose names I cannot even utter, oh wise one, oh precious one, please, I am not even fit to lick the sweat from your beautiful brow. I do you a disservice by even speaking.

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It's interesting that you consider cutting 75% of the content feasibly available to each group of people as a positive. Notice how I don't seek to separate groups into "normal" or otherwise. I consider each group at each level, Mythic included, as a valid experience that should be available to them in its entirety. Regardless of which group you're not designing the game for, mythic or otherwise, in the 4 tiers of players each group gets less when its all smashed into 1.

It's also interesting that yet again, it seems like we're derailing the discussion of actual implementation with another superfluous, defensive reaction. I gave examples of people who'd be presented an incomplete experience if your design was implemented. I used your terminology of "tough" in my application and disagreed with that approach... nothing more. I guess I should've expected as much because the discussion here is primarily based around deflection as argument. If response is a "rant", then I don't know what to tell you - the fact that you can't have your ideas' implementation consequences extrapolated out even a little is an indication of how poorly thought out your design ideals are. Please quote a particular sentence that you'd characterize as "whiny" or fueled by "outrage".

Your entire post was about how, since I don't want to gear the game toward mythic raiders, I want disabled children to suffer. It's comically triggered. I do not take you seriously anymore.

[Frozenbro]

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I (a casual) was speaking out of turn to such an elite, intellectual titam such as yourself. Oh high one, please do not let my lowly, filthy existence pester you one minute further. I beg of you, oh he was been ordained by those whose names I cannot even utter, oh wise one, oh precious one, please, I am not even fit to lick the sweat from your beautiful brow. I do you a disservice by even speaking.

Ouch, seems like i poured salt where it hurts, my bad, im here to listen to your inferiority complex when hearing the word mythic, go on.

[schwank05]

But the problem is that not everyone found that content accessible. Rightly or wrongly, a good chunk of folks (probably the player majority) never experienced it. That’s an issue if Blizzard is making content that people feel that can’t experience.

And the issue you are having with LFR is easily handled by not doing LFR. You can simply skip it and do the difficulty level of your choice.

Right but the difficulty level of my choice was TBC/ WOLTK raids so LFR now. I want to have fun and kill stuff not wipe over and over on one boss. I did progression raiding back in the day it was not fun for me, I like Raiding after stuff is on Farm or just easier content. I don't care if I am called a casual or noob or even shitty I play a game if I want to work I have a business I run that I can do that at whenever I want.

[NineSpine]

Ouch, seems like i poured salt where it hurts, my bad, im here to listen to your inferiority complex when hearing the word mythic, go on.

Please great one do not bother your wonderful mind with my petty existence any further.

[Apexis]

Ion explained it this way and I am not going to quote him, but he stated along the lines that the concept, design and time that go into creating raid content did not get the return on investment to justify the majority of the player base not getting to see the content. Once raid groups had their fill of a raid, they would stop altogether playing until the next raid content was released. Which left the content sitting there with very few groups, if any continuing to grind through the raid content.

On top of this things like, Gearscore, ilvl, WowProgress, Raider.io, AoTC, and the list goes on over the years were used to marginalizing the player base, not making the player base a cohesive community that some who lived and breathed in their guild and bubble world actually existed throughout early part of WoW's history. This is the very reason Blizzard created the LFR, it set no standards and was simply open to all without having to run through the gauntlet of things I just mentioned. One simply queued up, enter the content, see the content, and maybe for doing so get a piece of gear.

Course the concept of the LFR on paper did not take into account all the people that would eventually use the LFR as a means of bashing and shaming people who chose only to enter the LFR and not move up to organized raiding groups. Had the LFR been implemented as a means of learning and teaching, rather than what it largely was and is. More people would be raiding in raiding groups as opposed to having to depend on the LFR as a means to see the content. I am sure, Blizzard's hopes were for more people that chose to use the LFR would make the transition to organized raid groups. I am sure on some level that has taken place but not on the scale Blizzard may have been looking to achieve.

As for the necessity to do all four levels of difficulty, that seems more a choice than a requirement for a player to have to make. No one, unless they are part of a guild that demands such things take place, should have to run more than maybe three levels initially for gear and then put the higher level of the raid content on farm to get whatever remaining pieces of gear the members of the group require.

[NineSpine]

Ion explained it this way and I am not going to quote him, but he stated along the lines that the concept, design and time that go into creating raid content did not get the return on investment to justify the majority of the player base not getting to see the content. Once raid groups had their fill of a raid, they would stop altogether playing until the next raid content was released. Which left the content sitting there with very few groups, if any continuing to grind through the raid content.

On top of this things like, Gearscore, ilvl, WowProgress, Raider.io, AoTC, and the list goes on over the years were used to marginalizing the player base, not making the player base a cohesive community that some who lived and breathed in their guild and bubble world actually existed throughout early part of WoW's history. This is the very reason Blizzard created the LFR, it set no standards and was simply open to all without having to run through the gauntlet of things I just mentioned. One simply queued up, enter the content, see the content, and maybe for doing so get a piece of gear.

Course the concept of the LFR on paper did not take into account all the people that would eventually use the LFR as a means of bashing and shaming people who chose only to enter the LFR and not move up to organized raiding groups. Had the LFR been implemented as a means of learning and teaching, rather than what it largely was and is. More people would be raiding in raiding groups as opposed to having to depend on the LFR as a means to see the content. I am sure, Blizzard's hopes were for more people that chose to use the LFR would make the transition to organized raid groups. I am sure on some level that has taken place but not on the scale Blizzard may have been looking to achieve.

As for the necessity to do all four levels of difficulty, that seems more a choice than a requirement for a player to have to make. No one, unless they are part of a guild that demands such things take place, should have to run more than maybe three levels initially for gear and then put the higher level of the raid content on farm to get whatever remaining pieces of gear the members of the group require.

I think the problem here is that it is assumed that since large percentages of players use LFR then LFR is actively improving their gameplay experience, and I don't think that that is a valid conclusion to come to. I don't see any evidence that a large percentage of players consider LFR to be a genuinely fun experience they look forward to.

[Awsyme]

The division in raids is godawful.

LFG is... eh. its there. The drops inside are largely garbage which means a lot of people treat that as mainly a way to see the inside of a raid and its bosses. Which is... a thing I guess but also removes the urge to join a raid group and do end game content.
Normal - its like trainer wheels for a raid group.
Heroic - where most serious raiders spend their time. Also ramps up by the end to the point where beginning mythic is easier than the final few bosses.
Mythic - Purely for the ultra hard core - especially after 4+ bosses in (usually).

At the moment there's a bunch of problems with this set up. LFG kind of kills the average persons desire to actually join a raiding group - it reinforces the solo mentality. Then you have three levels of difficulty which go from 'so easy its a joke' to 'this is an insane dps/skill check beyond the level of most of the world's players'. I don't really understand the design philosophy of these atm. it feels like they're aiming at the bottom 10% and the top 1% of the player base. Instead of the majority of players who want a challenging raid they can slowly but steadily progress through and actually clear after a few months.

I'd love to see them combine normal and heroic together and ease up on the sheer insanity of mythic. I don't care if it means method etc clear it in a day. I want to be able to feel my raid group has a chance to do the same at some point instead of getting 3 bosses in and finally calling it quits. And one where you have an end boss so hard that at the time of typing this as a mere 3000 players in the WORLD has defeated her.

[Garymorilix]

There always has been single player content in WoW. Actually, MMORPG is not defined as playing in premade groups, but just as playing with or alongside others in a shared world.

You do not even know how MMORPG is defined, so what do you want to tell me?

Oh, you mean 8 expansions worth of STORY CONTENT on 10 different continents and that's only the questing stuff. Top that with another 8 expansions worth of end-game solo content that you can still do if you so very want to.
There are more single player content in the game than the length of any one single player RPG.

Do YOU know what an MMORPG is supposed to be? Or you just want "the witcher with friends"?

[Fred Skinner]

Oh, you mean 8 expansions worth of STORY CONTENT on 10 different continents and that's only the questing stuff. Top that with another 8 expansions worth of end-game solo content that you can still do if you so very want to.

Oh, so you want to limit quest players to old content? And have all new content for organized raiding crowd?

There are more single player content in the game than the length of any one single player RPG.

And yet you want to pretend that a MMORPG should only be about premade group content.

Do YOU know what an MMORPG is supposed to be? Or you just want "the witcher with friends"?

Massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs) are a combination of role-playing video games and massively multiplayer online games in which a very large number of players interact with one another within a virtual world.

[Jastall]

1 difficulty models dont work because people should be able to see the full raid/story in it no matter what content you do. What we need is just a gentle consolidation:

LFR - keep it as it is
Normal - remove
Heroic - Tune down the difficulty a bit so its somewhere between Normal and Heroic and call it Normal
Mythic - keep it as it is

This small change alone will also great help with the power spikes as it cuts 15 ilevels in progression.

While on paper I can get behind this, the issue is that the gap between Heroic and Mythic is already large enough as it is. Going from a bit harder than Normal to Mythic would be a massive stepping stone. Right now getting AOTC means your guild is ready for Mythic, or at least its first few bosses, while killing a slightly buffed N Azshara wouldn't be.

[jellmoo]

Right but the difficulty level of my choice was TBC/ WOLTK raids so LFR now. I want to have fun and kill stuff not wipe over and over on one boss. I did progression raiding back in the day it was not fun for me, I like Raiding after stuff is on Farm or just easier content. I don't care if I am called a casual or noob or even shitty I play a game if I want to work I have a business I run that I can do that at whenever I want.

But you have some pretty decent choices. You have LFR as the super easy and casual experience. If you feel it’s too easy, you can do a Normal instead. It’s more challenging, but still not slam your head against the wall difficult. The ability to choose the difficulty gives you the raid type you want, Corey Casual the type he wants, and Mythic Mike the type he wants. It’s not perfect, nothing is, but it does allow for greater participation overall.

[Akibaboy]

Your entire post was about how, since I don't want to gear the game toward mythic raiders, I want disabled children to suffer. It's comically triggered. I do not take you seriously anymore.

Nowhere were my posts about gearing "the game toward mythic raiders".
I'm against combining the 4 existing difficulties down into one scaling difficulty, because it'd effectively cut the relevant amount of content for each group by 75%. The severely casual lose access to the later 75% of the raid, and the Mythic raiders lose engaging content for the first 75%... and everyone in between gets a lukewarm mix of stupidly easy to unenjoyably difficult (or can't even attempt the fight because they don't have 25 people)... with maybe a good fight or two in the middle.

Nowhere in my post did I mention "disabled children" suffering. I brought up examples of real people I know who enjoy the fact that the game has a complete mode that applies to their skill and engagement level. It just seems like you're keen to try and create a problem where one really isn't there, considering that not only Blizzard are happy with a wide range of players experiencing their full game... but basically every other major MMO and online game now that offers ranges of Normal to "Heroic", "Hard", "Extreme" separate versions of the exact same content. I suppose they're all comically triggered too, and not just cognizant that providing different experiences for different playstyles is of benefit to the bottom line and continued success of their games.

[RoKPaNda]

Is that why the game is bleeding to death with this design model and the only way to excite the playerbase was to rerelease a 15 year old version?

Are you actually aware that raiding was a total niche activity until they added the lower raid difficulties? Catering to the casuals is the only thing keeping WoW alive after 15 years. They appealed to nostalgia with Cata and it was wildly successful until it wasn't, they appealed to nostalgia with WoD and it was wildly successful at launch and then the product was shit, they're appealing to nostalgia with WoW classic and guess what? It's super successful, but even Blizzard is aware that interest is going to fall off hard and fast. If they did retail WoW your way the game would just die. The casuals keep it afloat. Those of us that raid mythic are an extreme minority.