Project xCloud - Microsoft's Game Streaming Platform

[kaelleria]

Only for Android devices, not for PC currently.

Can't use it without a Xbox Pass subscription, where you can only play games on the subscription catalogue, or a owning a physical Xbox.

The tech is promising, the way they're hamstringing it is nonsense.

The beta test does not have any of those requirements other than the fact you need an Android 6 phone or higher.

As for how successful game streaming is going to be in the long run... lets just say I forsee most casual gamers or on the go gamers choosing a game streaming subscription over owning additional hardware within the next 5 years.

I've actually had a chance to test out some of the services and was very pleasantly surprised, even on FPS titles.

[Vash The Stampede]

It will be a lot more successful then that since it's tied to services and hardware people already use and sub to. xCloud isn't a replacement to the home console or gaming PC it's a compliment to it. Big difference between it and stadia.

As long as the service is tied to Xbox, I wouldn't put much stock into Xcloud. Let's be honest here, the Xbox One didn't do so great this generation.

Cloud streaming can work. The US just has ass internet, Europe and OCX via proxy.

ISP routers are shitty. Infrastructure in most areas is ancient with no real incentives to improve. No one wants to front the cost of dedicated servers.

Except for this thing called the speed of light. Don't worry though, I'm sure Microsoft has the technology to circumvent the speed of light, just like Star Trek did. Warp drives are a thing right? We just need the warp internet.

What Microsoft needs to do is distribute medication to slow down peoples perception so their response time is the same as cloud gaming.

[PACOX]

Except for this thing called the speed of light. Don't worry though, I'm sure Microsoft has the technology to circumvent the speed of light, just like Star Trek did. Warp drives are a thing right? We just need the warp internet.

Our internet is no where near the speed of light yet. Even then, latency would be negligable with proper infrastructure.

Gaming packets are relatively 'cheap' in terms of bandwidth. Your bottom is hardware power and medium you're pushing the packets through, not the packets or the speed.

You put bad fuel in a Lambo, you're going to have bad times. You try speed in your Lambo down a bumpy road, bad times.

Right now most people have a bottleneck at the ISP issued gateway and the network node that servers their neighborhood.

Crappy routers connected to copper wire served by a box connected to 5 other people trying to 4K stream the Netflix show of the week.

The US has terrible consumer infrastructure that's well behind actual IT capabilities.

[Caperfin]

Is this Msoft streaming thing still in the works? Haven't heard anything from them in a while.

[Vash The Stampede]

Our internet is no where near the speed of light yet. Even then, latency would be negligable with proper infrastructure.

No it wouldn't. There's a lot of things that can cause latency, but in the most ideal situation you'll still get like 70ms. Which may not seem like a whole lot but when you consider that most people use regular TV's and use a wireless gamepad or input device, that latency will add up. Yes add, not overwrite, because that's not how latency works. Also, most homes are not in the ideal situation either. Most homes use wireless for internet as they're still using 802.11N, and most homes use their internet at the same time as others do in their own home, which just increases the latency when you're bandwidth starved. Most homes also have crap ISP's, and that isn't going to change anytime soon. So realistically most people would experience something like 150ms.

Right now most people have a bottleneck at the ISP issued gateway and the network node that servers their neighborhood.

Crappy routers connected to copper wire served by a box connected to 5 other people trying to 4K stream the Netflix show of the week.

The US has terrible consumer infrastructure that's well behind actual IT capabilities.

When most people think of lag in games, they think it's a bandwidth issue, which it can be especially with cloud gaming. Assuming there's no bandwidth issues then we're dealing with physics. Transmission mediums like fiber optic is limited to the speed of light, though a good deal of it uses copper which is slower than the speed of light. So the only real solution to Propagation is to move the server closer to the user, which can be a problem for those who don't live near cities or very populated areas. Then you have hops which is when your data packet has to travel through a router, which is unavoidable depending on where you live. The more hops your data has to jump through, the more latency is added. Routers aren't going anywhere.

People who support cloud gaming have no idea how networking works, or maybe they do but the usual rhetoric is that, "If I'm OK with some latency then everyone is", or "the delay is so small you won't notice it". There's a reason why Nvidia, Sony, and Google have all failed with cloud gaming because anyone who tried it is immediately turned off from the input delay. Nvidia has the hardware while Google has the infrastructure, but Sony like Microsoft has the platform and they failed to push cloud gaming as well, so what hope does Microsoft have? All these companies ignored the fundamental laws of physics because they believed in a real money maker for themselves. At some point Jen-Hsun Huang gave up and told the truth, and this is what he said, "It’s a fundamental problem. It’s just the laws of physics.” So why are you guys promoting something that doesn't seem physically possible?

[D3athsting]

So ppl use freesync,gsync, low latency 144+ fps monitors to have lowest input lag and then you get 100ms latency for playing on a machine at 500km?

[Vash The Stampede]

Difference is, we all play games on Windows. Unless you are on PS4 or Nintendo. You can expect android games to thread well.

I'm sure games on Steam, Origin, Epic, GoG, and Battle.net will all work just fine on Xcloud. Unless you're talking about Xbox because that was never a thing on Windows.

[kaelleria]

This is not meant to replace natively installed games for hardcore gamers. Please stop treating it like it is.

This is meant to be a companion for gamers on the go or for people that want to game and don't want to invest in a gaming rig or a console.

I'm imagining that it will be included in a game pass subscription so it's really going to be a pretty good value proposition too.

And like I said earlier... as someone who has actually tested out streaming tech, people are going to be pleasantly surprised. It won't work for everyone but it'll work just fine for people in Urban and Suburban regions no problem.

[Vash The Stampede]

What I meant is that best games are on Windows. Linux and iOS as well as Android cannot really brag with their gaming abilities.

Actually, Linux can play most Windows games just fine through Wine+DXVK. But compared to Microsoft's ports of their Xbox games on PC, the Linux OS with Steam has more games. Microsoft's support for PC hasn't been a thing for a long time. Just look at Halo and how they're finally bringing the Master Chief collection to it after years of neglect. On Steam of course because that's the most popular distribution of PC games.

This is not meant to replace natively installed games for hardcore gamers. Please stop treating it like it is.

This is meant to be a companion for gamers on the go or for people that want to game and don't want to invest in a gaming rig or a console.

That's another excuse. Because you and corporate overlords believe that this is something meant for a niche market, like casuals. Nobody likes input lag, not even casuals. If casuals really wanted this service then why didn't they jump onto Sony's, Nvidia's, or Google's?

I'm imagining that it will be included in a game pass subscription so it's really going to be a pretty good value proposition too.

That's another problem that plagued Google's Stadia, in that since they compared their service to Netflix then people assumed that every game available was included with the monthly fee. It turns out you still need to pay $60 for new titles, and that didn't sit well with people. Sure you get a bunch of older games or indie games for free with the service, but most of those games can be bought for less than $10 each, and you get to keep the games. It's only a good value proposition if you don't put much value in your money.

And like I said earlier... as someone who has actually tested out streaming tech, people are going to be pleasantly surprised. It won't work for everyone but it'll work just fine for people in Urban and Suburban regions no problem.

Doesn't that just prove that there's a speed of light problem? It works in populated areas because it makes economical sense to put servers in those areas, where as people who live in less populated areas are screwed because nobody is going to put a gaming server in upstate NY. So to be more accurate, this is a gaming service for those who are casual and live in densely populated areas. Probably should add wealthy areas as I can't imagine servers in poor country's.

Most people who tried out cloud gaming have all said they experience input lag, unless under controlled conditions like the server was right next to them in the same room. You're pleasantly surprised but you must have some input lag. I have a hard time dealing with my Xbox 360 wireless gamepad hooked up to my HTPC, because the latency is so bad.

[kaelleria]

Actually, Linux can play most Windows games just fine through Wine+DXVK. But compared to Microsoft's ports of their Xbox games on PC, the Linux OS with Steam has more games. Microsoft's support for PC hasn't been a thing for a long time. Just look at Halo and how they're finally bringing the Master Chief collection to it after years of neglect. On Steam of course because that's the most popular distribution of PC games.


That's another excuse. Because you and corporate overlords believe that this is something meant for a niche market, like casuals. Nobody likes input lag, not even casuals. If casuals really wanted this service then why didn't they jump onto Sony's, Nvidia's, or Google's?

That's another problem that plagued Google's Stadia, in that since they compared their service to Netflix then people assumed that every game available was included with the monthly fee. It turns out you still need to pay $60 for new titles, and that didn't sit well with people. Sure you get a bunch of older games or indie games for free with the service, but most of those games can be bought for less than $10 each, and you get to keep the games. It's only a good value proposition if you don't put much value in your money.

Doesn't that just prove that there's a speed of light problem? It works in populated areas because it makes economical sense to put servers in those areas, where as people who live in less populated areas are screwed because nobody is going to put a gaming server in upstate NY. So to be more accurate, this is a gaming service for those who are casual and live in densely populated areas. Probably should add wealthy areas as I can't imagine servers in poor country's.

Most people who tried out cloud gaming have all said they experience input lag, unless under controlled conditions like the server was right next to them in the same room. You're pleasantly surprised but you must have some input lag. I have a hard time dealing with my Xbox 360 wireless gamepad hooked up to my HTPC, because the latency is so bad.

It won't work for everyone, but the vast majority of people are within a few hundred miles of an Azure or AWS datacenter. How much latency do you think that adds? Not a ton. In fact, it adds less latency than there is in the BT stack.

Test it out. I did. If it's not for you, fine, but you're basically wasting people's time by not reading anything pertinent.

[Vash The Stampede]

It won't work for everyone, but the vast majority of people are within a few hundred miles of an Azure or AWS datacenter. How much latency do you think that adds? Not a ton. In fact, it adds less latency than there is in the BT stack.

In the most ideal conditions, maybe. But even in the worst conditions for Bluetooth it'll still be roughly the same. While a home internet connection is extremely susceptible to all kinds of things like wifi, lots of people using Netflix, or just doing it around 8PM when your neighbours are looking at porn. Someone gets drunk and hits a pole and takes our internet for your area. Bluetooth doesn't have this problem.

Test it out. I did.

That sounds like spending money on something I'm sure I'll hate. I have a degree in networking as well in computer science, so I know what's going to happen. If I really want to test it out then I could be using Moonlight or KinoConsole where my home PC with all its games are going to give me the lowest latency possible, since I'm usually not too far away from my home. Still won't be better than owning a gaming laptop or a Switch Lite.

If it's not for you, fine, but you're basically wasting people's time by not reading anything pertinent.

It's pertinent because it's science. The only reason it wouldn't be pertinent is when you're OK with input lag, and if that's the case then good luck.

- - - Updated - - -

I could have sense your Linux smell from thousands km away. I am not expecting anything else. Linux can play whatever it is supported with OpenGL. Sure, you can say you can play World of WarCraft on Linux but we all know that is an experience cut in half and three times worse.

Long live DirectX and Windows!!!

You should look up DXVK. It has been a game changer.

[Caperfin]

Sure, you can say you can play World of WarCraft on Linux but we all know that is an experience cut in half and three times worse.

Long live DirectX and Windows!!!

Did this really have to be pointed out? Isn't this common knowledge by now? There are legitimate trade offs though.

[Unholyground]

I stream my desktop over the internet and don't notice any meaningful lag so who knows.

[Vash The Stampede]

Legend: x - number of steps

Linux: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx - start game
Windows: xxxx - start game.

That is not legitimate trade off and yeah, it has to be pointed out.

None of you guys have used Linux, or haven't used it recently. What would you know about steps needed to play a game? What if I told you that you could play those same Windows games on linux with even less steps than Windows thanks to Steam's Proton and Lutris. Also, everyone knows the future is Linux for gaming, not Cloud Gaming. That's why Valve still invests in Linux and not in Cloud Gaming.

[Usernameforforums]

I think every big company is trying to push this cloud gaming crap. I honestly think it’s gonna be a fail. It adds so much unnecessary latency, anyone that says otherwise is full of it.

[Tech614]

I think every big company is trying to push this cloud gaming crap. I honestly think it’s gonna be a fail. It adds so much unnecessary latency, anyone that says otherwise is full of it.

Motion controls are the future of gaming oh wait

3D TVs are the future of gaming oh wait

VR is the future of gaming oh wait

Streaming is the future of gaming... Just another in a long line of fads companies hope stick around but won't. They never learn that all gamers want is a console or a pc and to play normal games, normally. Not gimmicks. Instead of growing the market organically, as it always does naturally they're always fixated on quick fix gimmicks to attract casuals that aren't interested in the first place.

Streaming will be ok as a compliment to to already owning devices(as it already is via various remote play options we already have) which is why xcloud won't completely fail but anyone expecting some massive audience to magically attach to AAA gaming via streaming from their phones is smoking some good ass shit. Normies ain't gonna be carrying around a controller to attach to their phone or tablet to use this shit, they will stick to their shitty mobile games.

[Vash The Stampede]

Motion controls are the future of gaming oh wait

3D TVs are the future of gaming oh wait

VR is the future of gaming oh wait

Streaming is the future of gaming...

The difference is that 3D TVs and VR do actually work, but cost a fortune. Motion controls were gimmicky as they did work but not better than a gamepad or mouse and keyboard. Streaming though is not physically possible unless you don't mind input lag. Literally a laws of physics, as your latency is limited to the speed of light or electricity depending if your internet connection if fiber or copper.

Streaming will be ok as a compliment to to already owning devices(as it already is via various remote play options we already have) which is why xcloud won't completely fail but anyone expecting some massive audience to magically attach to AAA gaming via streaming from their phones is smoking some good ass shit. Normies ain't gonna be carrying around a controller to attach to their phone or tablet to use this shit, they will stick to their shitty mobile games.

Streaming's failure is that it has no audience that wants it. Playing games is awful on mobile phones as it is as there's no physical controls. Sony had the right idea with Xperia but nothing like that has been made since. Then there's the reliability of phone connection itself. I was actually in court today and the building is huge and full of bricks and my cell phone had no signal most of the time. They did have a Guest wifi connection but it was awful as it would lose internet connection very often. Funny enough, they did have an Xbox One console there ready to play in the waiting room. Who puts a video game console in a waiting room?

I also travel upstate NY often and my phone will often lose connection as I travel further away from civilization. Even in the better part of NJ there's areas where my connection just dies while in my car. Cloud gaming requires a very fast and a very reliable connection, so I don't see how the mobile phone is such a good idea. Now at home where you have access to 802.11ac wifi then that makes more sense, but if you're home then why are you using a cloud gaming service? Pull out your Switch, PS4, or PC and get a 10x better experience.

Thanks to the Switch Lite, if you want to game on the go without breaking the bank then a $200 Switch will work. If you plan to carry around a laptop then a gaming laptop is the best choice. At home, well you know what choices you have. So who is cloud gaming exactly for anyway?

[Tech614]

The difference is that 3D TVs and VR do actually work

3D TVs went the way of the dodo and VR has never caught on to get a game that wasn't a cheap port or a shitty tech demo so... I'm gonna say they didn't work.

Motion controls worked for a time, very much overstayed their welcome. MS forcing the Kinect on you at the Xbox One launch was about as dumb of a decision as their original DRM plans, motions controls where already dead as a doornail by 2013.

On the other hand streaming is okay but ONLY as a supplement. So many genres are flat out unplayable on it but for the ones that are like slow paced RPGs it's nice to be able to remote play to my PS4 from my Vita(which I do use) and play on the go. Streaming as a replacement to actual hardware is a pipe dream that is gonna fall on it's face.

[Remilia]

Got into preview and decided to try a level of Halo 5.

Latency for the most part was expected. 50ms for the most part and spikes to 100ms from what I feel, overall consistent and serviceable but not great. Connected via Xbox One controller. Since it's a 5in whatever screen playing a game designed for bigger screen, it gets very eye straining due to how tiny it is. I can sometimes barely make out if something is an enemy or a piece of scenery.

A few issues that got really annoying, holding down _______ will break sometimes. So holding down to ADS will sometimes just randomly get out of it or spaz out. Dropped inputs weren't that common, happened like 3 or 4 times, not great but at least better than I was expecting.

Video quality was decent (it is a tiny screen anyways). Randomly will bug out for a couple frames though, most likely my side cause my internet is utter ass.

Everything was done through Wi-Fi, LTE not allowed atm (for Verizon anyways).

Will be perfectly serviceable for turn based games which is a given, however Halo was definitely annoying to do partially due to the small screen and partially cause holding down buttons was spastic.

[Flame6]

The internet in the US is meh for a lot of us and bad for the rest. With data caps on home internet, and slow speeds, the user base for cloud gaming isn't going to get big enough. Thankfully 4k video should pickup and start pushing demand for faster internet because if 4k doesn't become a thing most home users aren't going to demand faster speeds.