Remember when Sylvannas shouted "For the Horde!" in the BfA trailer?

[xZerocidex]

Why? Do you think a "i dont care about you guys, you are nothin"-rally cry would be more appropriate?

Just because I made a post mocking her statements from the trailers, don't assume I'm advocating for her doing other nonsensical things.

[Flurryfang]

It's almost as if in 2004 we were told that under Sylvanas' leadership, "the Forsaken have entered an Alliance of convenience, harboring no true loyalty for their new allies".
Then in 2008 a faction of them would bomb their "allies" and enemies alike with blight, which we'd find out later was actually Sylvanas' doing.
And in 2010 she'd start a genocidal war with a defenseless nation ravaged by the Cataclysm for basically no reason other than to bolster her forces via fresh corpses.
In 2014 she plotted to kill her sister and raise her as a Dark Ranger so that she didn't have to be so lonely.
In 2016 she plotted to enslave a holy Val'kyr charged with defending Azeroth and using it to grant her more immortality tokens.
In 2017 her right hand man for years told us we're all fools and that she'd burn our holy places and raze our cities, despite her seemingly positive leadership in fighting the Legion.
In 2018 she burned our holy places, bombed her own kingdom and killed her own people, and started a global war.
~ I'm sure I'm missing a few more instances in between.

How's that for foreshadowing and building? Basically every chance they've had to place her into the story, they've also given us plenty indication that she is an antagonist. That "alliance of convenience" had run its course. Leading the Horde had become a pain in the ass, a hindrance to her true calling, and so she cast it aside. Pretty simple.

But hey, there was that one time she yelled "For the Horde!" so it must mean she's totally changed.

So just to cut down most of your examples: None of those things directly pointed her out as a bad guy. She is the anti-hero, doing things in "bad way", but for the right reasons. Most of her actions can be pushed towards the idea of making the Forsaken greater and stronger. Like the val'kyr thing has for me always seemed like a "For the Forsaken" thing, and not something about her immortality.

The problem with the entire Forsaken/Sylvanas story, is that just because they do "bad" things, its not bad for them. The plaque and all is pretty much the ultimate undead weapon, as they are protected from it. Its like holy bombs for the humans(if they had it). If they were immune, ofcourse they would use them. That is why it can be defended.

If we had actual foreshadowing, we would have moments of "wait a minute, what the hell happened there?". We would have people missing under her reign, but people afraid to talk. We would have Orgrimmar become filled with more and more forsaken and people would talk about the Horde becoming more "forsaken-ish". That is what is real foreshadowing. Real things, that we can point to. Not spontanious reactions like Teldrassil, that shows nothing but maybe a haunted character and a bad storywriting.

Finally, the entire alliance of convenience was about safety for the Forsaken. Sylvanas had nothing to hide, she was never the one being hunted until she became warchief, so saying "the alliance of convenience is over" is a total misinterpretation on what was actually going on. I would go on with it if Sylvanas was actually doing something in shadow of the Horde, something that she would not be able to do if the Forsaken were alone, but that has not happened. She has been EXTREMLY inactive so what was there to hide??

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, I mean, they’ve only spent fifteen years on Sylvy’s heel turn. Out of nowhere!

Sylvanases story the last 15 years have never been about her biding her time to betray the Horde AND the Forsaken. You are assuming alot of things, if you say that Sylvanas has been set up as a bad guy for the last 15 years, because until a few years ago, there were a lot of people, who were seeing her story as a story of redemption and finding a place for her forsaken people.

- - - Updated - - -

Welcome to Sylvanas, where the writing was on the wall from the beginning that she was little more than a selfish ghoul. If you ignored all the signs there isn't really anyone to blame.

When you mix signs, then its obvious that the signal will not be clear. Blizzard have always been ready to make the story look good on Sylvanas, make her seem both good and bad, but never totally evil. She was not a god guy like Anduin, but there is a big distance from what Sylvanas was before 8.1 and to someone completly evil.

This is like Game of Thrones and the people saying, that Daenarys turning evil was foreshadow from the very beginning, when that was not really the case. Somebody can be rash and do bad things, without actually being a bad guy.

[Estravolt]

So just to cut down most of your examples: None of those things directly pointed her out as a bad guy. She is the anti-hero, doing things in "bad way", but for the right reasons. Most of her actions can be pushed towards the idea of making the Forsaken greater and stronger. Like the val'kyr thing has for me always seemed like a "For the Forsaken" thing, and not something about her immortality.

The problem with the entire Forsaken/Sylvanas story, is that just because they do "bad" things, its not bad for them. The plaque and all is pretty much the ultimate undead weapon, as they are protected from it. Its like holy bombs for the humans(if they had it). If they were immune, ofcourse they would use them. That is why it can be defended.

If we had actual foreshadowing, we would have moments of "wait a minute, what the hell happened there?". We would have people missing under her reign, but people afraid to talk. We would have Orgrimmar become filled with more and more forsaken and people would talk about the Horde becoming more "forsaken-ish". That is what is real foreshadowing. Real things, that we can point to. Not spontanious reactions like Teldrassil, that shows nothing but maybe a haunted character and a bad storywriting.

Finally, the entire alliance of convenience was about safety for the Forsaken. Sylvanas had nothing to hide, she was never the one being hunted until she became warchief, so saying "the alliance of convenience is over" is a total misinterpretation on what was actually going on. I would go on with it if Sylvanas was actually doing something in shadow of the Horde, something that she would not be able to do if the Forsaken were alone, but that has not happened. She has been EXTREMLY inactive so what was there to hide??

- - - Updated - - -



Sylvanases story the last 15 years have never been about her biding her time to betray the Horde AND the Forsaken. You are assuming alot of things, if you say that Sylvanas has been set up as a bad guy for the last 15 years, because until a few years ago, there were a lot of people, who were seeing her story as a story of redemption and finding a place for her forsaken people.

- - - Updated - - -



When you mix signs, then its obvious that the signal will not be clear. Blizzard have always been ready to make the story look good on Sylvanas, make her seem both good and bad, but never totally evil. She was not a god guy like Anduin, but there is a big distance from what Sylvanas was before 8.1 and to someone completly evil.

This is like Game of Thrones and the people saying, that Daenarys turning evil was foreshadow from the very beginning, when that was not really the case. Somebody can be rash and do bad things, without actually being a bad guy.

Check out forsaken intro from vanilla

[Flurryfang]

So things like:

Sylvanas dying multiple times and going bonkers.

Her fear of dying and hunger for power.

Everyone saw this coming miles away.

Just because everybody saw this coming miles away, does not mean that is good story writing or an actual development of the character. They have never shown her be fearful of dying in-game, even when she actually died(see her reaction in the Silverpine storyline). They have never shown her hunger for power, they have more shown, that she was indifferent to power. She never really used her power as warchief aside from Teldrassil. Legion happened in a natural way, the same with most of BFA with Zandalar-vs-Kul Tiras.

[Khaza-R]

It was total cringe when she said it in the trailer. I happy to know she never meant it

[Kithelle]

snip

It wasn't mixed signals, she was evil and lots of people saw it...some like her because of the way she is. But then you have the white knights who would pretend she is a innocent little flower and act liked they were completely caught off guard by this.

No they weren't caught off guard, they just refused to see the signs because of waifu.

[Flurryfang]

Check out forsaken intro from vanilla

First of all: From Vanilla. We are 15 years of racial and story progression later, with a number of major revolutions within the Horde and the Forsaken.

Also, this was about the Forsaken....But the Forsaken have turned good. They are not Sylvanas. So the intro have no value anymore.

[Estravolt]

Just because everybody saw this coming miles away, does not mean that is good story writing or an actual development of the character. They have never shown her be fearful of dying in-game, even when she actually died(see her reaction in the Silverpine storyline). They have never shown her hunger for power, they have more shown, that she was indifferent to power. She never really used her power as warchief aside from Teldrassil. Legion happened in a natural way, the same with most of BFA with Zandalar-vs-Kul Tiras.

Wasnt she terrified of what she saw after diving from icecrown?

What is hunger for power if not seeking a way to control Eyjir regardless of the consequenses?

[Flurryfang]

It wasn't mixed signals, she was evil and lots of people saw it...some like her because of the way she is. But then you have the white knights who would pretend she is a innocent little flower and act liked they were completely caught off guard by this.

No they weren't caught off guard, they just refused to see the signs because of waifu.

It was really mixed signals. Her coming to power as Warchief in Legion was suspicious, but she had nothing to gain from it at that time. It could just as much have been to promote the most seasonal faction leader of the Horde to Warchief, and not much about a master plan about Sylvanas taking power.

Clear signals would have been moments, that you could point to and say "Jep, even in the eyes of the Horde and Forsaken, she is evil". There is little, if none, of that before 8.0.

Also, saying that the only reason to not see her as evil is because of waifu and white knights is proberly the poorest excuse not to argue. There are clear arguements why this character progression/change is bad and sudden. It has nothing with being caught off guard, but thinking "Come on, Blizzard would not make her act like that all of sudden based upon a few hints".

(Again, i am refering to the events before the turn at 8.2.5 and somewhat before her clear "Garrosh-turn" at Teldrassil)

- - - Updated - - -

Wasnt she terrified of what she saw after diving from icecrown?

What is hunger for power if not seeking a way to control Eyjir regardless of the consequenses?

The story is from a book, which is more than 9 years ago. We never really see her act fearful of death ever again, especially not in-game, where she clearly states, that the Val'kyr is to increase the number of Forsaken and keep them replenished. She also lets them die quite carefree, which would be a wierd action if she saw them as extra lives.

And the Evjir thing was all about creating more Val'kyrs, because her supply was running low. Again, could be just cause for a good of the Forsaken, to keep her own race healthy and not wither away with time.

[Kithelle]

It was really mixed signals. Her coming to power as Warchief in Legion was suspicious, but she had nothing to gain from it at that time. It could just as much have been to promote the most seasonal faction leader of the Horde to Warchief, and not much about a master plan about Sylvanas taking power.

Clear signals would have been moments, that you could point to and say "Jep, even in the eyes of the Horde and Forsaken, she is evil". There is little, if none, of that before 8.0.

Also, saying that the only reason to not see her as evil is because of waifu and white knights is proberly the poorest excuse not to argue. There are clear arguements why this character progression/change is bad and sudden. It has nothing with being caught off guard, but thinking "Come on, Blizzard would not make her act like that all of sudden based upon a few hints".

(Again, i am refering to the events before the turn at 8.2.5 and somewhat before her clear "Garrosh-turn" at Teldrassil)

Nothing to gain? Nothing to gain by getting control of one of the largest armies on the face of Azeroth, nothing to gain there right? The woman who is afraid of being sent to the afterlife for good had nothing to gain from taking control of a massive army to play meat shield for her?

Her little "For the Horde" was so fake and people knew it...she has been selfish and evil for a long time and people knew it. The only people who didn't are the ones who wanted her to be a good person or flat out pretended like she was one.

Her motives for a long time have been selfish to downright ghoulish.

[Jetstream]

Sylvanases story the last 15 years have never been about her biding her time to betray the Horde AND the Forsaken. You are assuming alot of things, if you say that Sylvanas has been set up as a bad guy for the last 15 years, because until a few years ago, there were a lot of people, who were seeing her story as a story of redemption and finding a place for her forsaken people.

And I'm saying that those people were deluded. Every quest along Forsaken lines has involved murdering people, coming up with ways to murder people, and skulking around. Sylvanas' attitude has always been snide toward the whole idea until literally last expansion. "What makes you different from the Lich King?" "Obviously, I serve the horde."

The story's been there. Sylvanas is a liar and a villain. She always has been. Maybe she's flirted with not being an asshole periodically, but she's always gone down the asshole path. She thought maybe she could reconnect with her sister, but was gonna do that by way of murdering her and raising her as an undead.

The Wrathgate? Putress didn't do anything Sylvy wouldn't have done, he just did it without orders, at the wrong time, and threw a coup at the same time.

The only thing Sylvanas is loyal to is the Forsaken, and even then only to the Forsaken that fall in line.

[Syegfryed]

how could i not remember that massive cringe moment?

it had nothing behind, and the silence who come after was even more uncomfortable, now we know why felt that way

[Soon-TM]

The whole incident at Stormheim, which is the first major indictment against her, relies solely on the bias of most people, who assume that the shiny, winged Eyir must be good because... Um, reasons - even if they can easily realize how !@#&ed up is everything with Odin & co.

[Life-Binder]

it worked well though


give the Dark Lady an oscar

[Flurryfang]

And I'm saying that those people were deluded. Every quest along Forsaken lines has involved murdering people, coming up with ways to murder people, and skulking around. Sylvanas' attitude has always been snide toward the whole idea until literally last expansion. "What makes you different from the Lich King?" "Obviously, I serve the horde."

The story's been there. Sylvanas is a liar and a villain. She always has been. Maybe she's flirted with not being an asshole periodically, but she's always gone down the asshole path. She thought maybe she could reconnect with her sister, but was gonna do that by way of murdering her and raising her as an undead.

The Wrathgate? Putress didn't do anything Sylvy wouldn't have done, he just did it without orders, at the wrong time, and threw a coup at the same time.

The only thing Sylvanas is loyal to is the Forsaken, and even then only to the Forsaken that fall in line.

Again, assumptions, asssumptions, assumptions.

Sure she was snide, but she never had a reason to against the Horde or actually do anything against the idea of keeping the Horde strong. The line about her being the lich king would make sense....if she actually was heading towards being a lich king! But that is not what is happening. She is not following the path of arthas. She has not ressed anybody for a long time, so she is something on her own.

And liar? When has she lied, where we could clearly she that she was lying? Before Teldrassil, i would like for you to point out when she has lied for her own gain. The only time i remember her lying is at Gilneas, but that is because she want to save her forces and not lead a long, brutal war.

You are assuming a lot if you say, that Putress did what she wanted all the time, especially when he was a goddam demonic servant!

[Jetstream]

Again, assumptions, asssumptions, assumptions.

Sure she was snide, but she never had a reason to against the Horde or actually do anything against the idea of keeping the Horde strong. The line about her being the lich king would make sense....if she actually was heading towards being a lich king! But that is not what is happening. She is not following the path of arthas. She has not ressed anybody for a long time, so she is something on her own.

And liar? When has she lied, where we could clearly she that she was lying? Before Teldrassil, i would like for you to point out when she has lied for her own gain. The only time i remember her lying is at Gilneas, but that is because she want to save her forces and not lead a long, brutal war.

You are assuming a lot if you say, that Putress did what she wanted all the time, especially when he was a goddam demonic servant!

Dude, we made that plague. That was in quest after quest after quest for three solid expansions. Do you think we weren't gonna use it? We murdered and tortured and stole and... For god's sake I remember a quest where we killed a Tauren to shut him up. And do I gotta quote more of the intro for the Forsaken?

Convinced that the primitive races of the Horde can help them achieve victory over their enemies, the Forsaken have entered an alliance of convenience. Harboring no true loyalty for their new allies, they go to any lengths to ensure their dark plans come to fruition. As one of the Forsaken, you must massacre any who pose a threat to the new order, Human, Undead, or otherwise.

It was always a lie.

[Flurryfang]

Nothing to gain? Nothing to gain by getting control of one of the largest armies on the face of Azeroth, nothing to gain there right? The woman who is afraid of being sent to the afterlife for good had nothing to gain from taking control of a massive army to play meat shield for her?

Her little "For the Horde" was so fake and people knew it...she has been selfish and evil for a long time and people knew it. The only people who didn't are the ones who wanted her to be a good person or flat out pretended like she was one.

Her motives for a long time have been selfish to downright ghoulish.

For you to gain something, you have to gain it for reason. And you have to gain it with clear intent. Saying, that Sylvanas is power hungry because she became Warchief, is the same as saying that Anduin is power hungry, because he became High King after Varian. Me saying, that Sylvanas by chance got the role of Warchief holds just much more than you saying, she got it to gain an army. Atleast i have not something going clearly against it.

Okay, now you are going way too far. Her "For the Horde" was fake? Sure, that is clearly what everybody at Blizzcon thought when they saw that Cinematic. Now you are clearly trying to paint her evil even in moments, where Blizzard themselves tried to make her a front figure of the Horde.

- - - Updated - - -

Dude, we made that plague. That was in quest after quest after quest for three solid expansions. Do you think we weren't gonna use it? We murdered and tortured and stole and... For god's sake I remember a quest where we killed a Tauren to shut him up. And do I gotta quote more of the intro for the Forsaken?



It was always a lie.

A plauqe, which is pretty much the ultimate survival weapon for an undead. Its like chemical warfare, but where your people are immune and saves all your forces from dying in battle. Making a plaque in itself is not bad. If they had released it upon the world, like the Scourge did, i would agree it was bad. But it was just a weapon, nothing more.

Again, the Forsaken of Vanilla and the Forsaken of post-Cata are clearly different. Its like me quouting an old voice line from Outland Garrosh and say, that it proves he would never hurt a fly.

[Dorothyjean]

I think the whole thing is just a jab at Trump...

Every other Warchief has been well respected, loved and cherished in every expansion... but not this one...

[Syegfryed]

A plauqe, which is pretty much the ultimate survival weapon for an undead.

the new one not rly, since it was made to kill both the living and the dead, the former would theoretically be enough

But agree that just making was not rly clearly intent to do evil, and was more to archive victory against Arthas

Again, the Forsaken of Vanilla and the Forsaken of post-Cata are clearly different. Its like me quouting an old voice line from Outland Garrosh and say, that it proves he would never hurt a fly.

pretty much, its like 15 years ingame that forsaken have fight and died for the horde, and after their vengeance was fulfilled, they having some hope to the future is something normal, since they didn't just kill themselves afterwards.

[Life-Binder]

Every other Warchief has been well respected, loved and cherished in every expansion

especially MoP Garrosh