Loot Council v. Point systems like EPGP/DKP/etc. - What are your thoughts?

[zEmini]

Ill never raid with a guild that does DKP ever again. Been burned by it several times.

[Talon8669]

What is inherently the better system for distributing loot in your opinion?

I'm of the school of thought that point systems are superior because they are not potentially skewed by bias, favoritism, cliques, and the like. A group of people who most likely have agendas and or unspoken allegiances are flawed and subjective when divvying out loot compared to raiders earning points through being punctual, striving for 100% attendance, and contributing to the raid/guild through various means.

I'd like to hear legitimate reasons as to why LC is better if everyone in the guild is a contributing member of equal worth. If everyone is pulling their weight and doing everything right, how is LC better than a point system? It seems to me that LC is just a way for buddies to gear themselves up while screwing over new members, trials, and or members not in the "good graces" of the all powerful officers/gm.

I prefer DKP, I have had some bad experiences with loot council where leaders were gearing friends first. Loot council is ideally the best but people can be left jaded due to a specific pick and it can cause some drama. You need a very committed and loyal group along with stand up leadership to really make it work. DKP rewards players for showing up and attending. You could always do a hybrid also where known loot first drops will go to specific players at X DKP cost because it is best for the guild and just be up front about it ahead of time.

[khalltusk]

Rolls are not drama free. Also it is by far the worst distribution for progression oriented guilds.

I see this argument a lot. But really progression orientated on classic? The content is known it has been shown to be destroyed in no time. From what I gather on private servers even AQ40 and Nax are done with relative ease. I see no reason to be this strict on loot on what is comparatively easy raid content.

On Mythic raids in retail sure I could understand it. Thats difficult content and people have a hard time with it and you need any advantage you can get. Not on classic wow. Certainly not on MC and Onyxia.

[Tuhokoura]

Really doesnt matter since loot master is the one giving away loot. What he decides is what you get, he doesnt have to obey the artificial rules of DKP or Council.

[Eggroll]

Is the guild paying for your subscription?

I have seen firsthand how Loot Council can be abused, so i am a much bigger fan of DKP.

Not really but you wouldn't get the loot without the guild either, because you didn't solo the raid, you also depended on other people to help you kill the boss.
If they give the loot to someone who's gone five minutes later, they might aswell delete the item straight away. It's no use for the guild's progression as a whole.

[erifwodahs]

I see this argument a lot. But really progression orientated on classic? The content is known it has been shown to be destroyed in no time. From what I gather on private servers even AQ40 and Nax are done with relative ease. I see no reason to be this strict on loot on what is comparatively easy raid content.

On Mythic raids in retail sure I could understand it. Thats difficult content and people have a hard time with it and you need any advantage you can get. Not on classic wow. Certainly not on MC and Onyxia.

That's a good argument and I thought of that too, but I do think that Naxx/AQ race will be on and obviously, it might not be multi week race, but to get best chances you would want best players to have best gear. Something like gearing tanks so they can hold more threat is something what ppl could strive for instead or random loot distribution, or get best players gear faster, so you can do split runs faster and gear not so good players, because you would get same loot with less ppl in grp. Ofc, being "not so good player" in classic might be really unclear, because it comes a lot to just not missing GCDs and difference from someone doing very good to medium is not great so LC might have hard time and main factor might actually fall down to attendance, which then DKP does the same job. maybe a situation where you, for some reason have multiple feral dps, would benefit a lot from LC, because good from bad is a big difference and DKP/roll might just waste a piece of loot for lower performing dps. But again, that's a very specific situation. My argument was more like if you had to choose LC is better imo than DKP, otherwise, well, casuals can really do /roll as they won't be jumping the raids the day it comes out.

[khalltusk]

That's a good argument and I thought of that too, but I do think that Naxx/AQ race will be on and obviously, it might not be multi week race, but to get best chances you would want best players to have best gear. Something like gearing tanks so they can hold more threat is something what ppl could strive for instead or random loot distribution, or get best players gear faster, so you can do split runs faster and gear not so good players, because you would get same loot with less ppl in grp. Ofc, being "not so good player" in classic might be really unclear, because it comes a lot to just not missing GCDs and difference from someone doing very good to medium is not great so LC might have hard time and main factor might actually fall down to attendance, which then DKP does the same job. maybe a situation where you, for some reason have multiple feral dps, would benefit a lot from LC, because good from bad is a big difference and DKP/roll might just waste a piece of loot for lower performing dps. But again, that's a very specific situation. My argument was more like if you had to choose LC is better imo than DKP, otherwise, well, casuals can really do /roll as they won't be jumping the raids the day it comes out.

It really depends what oyu want to get from the game i guess.

DKP and LC have their own pluses and minuses. For me I just see it as an old game and will play it for fun. Having LC or DKP for me takes a bit of that fun away. I've used both systems in the past and don't want to go back to that.

Since there is plenty of time before BWL comes out I think gearing will be fairly easy. The main issue is retaining players long enough imo.

[Locknrollen]

Not all items are on the BiS list but could still be upgrades. And BiS lists don't tell how big of an upgrade it is, e.g. someone with a green in that slot is going to benefit way more from the drop than someone who has a near-BiS epic. This is an extreme example (green vs. near-BiS epic), but in practice the difference could be smaller and harder to tell. BiS lists tell only a part of the story.

In a loot council you compare the items people who need the item currently has. Why are you arguing for DKP when you havnt even tried LC?

- - - Updated - - -

Well that is simply not true. I can look at 3 different bis lists and they will all show my different items as bis. Bis is also far more complicated than it seems because that depends on what you define as best in slot. Currently, most bis lists for dps revolves around what gives you the highest dps on a patchwerk fight. That said, they often completely ignore support stats. For example, stamina is pretty good for raiding and is not a 0 value stat. For example, casters using epics over green spellpower pieces resulting in 5% less damage but having 1000 more health can be very useful in a lot of fights.

Your bis list will be completely different depending on how high you value damage stats vs for example stamina, mp5 or intellect.

You assume everyone just copies a list from some guide. This is not how its done. You have each player make their own bislist.

[Akasha64]

In a loot council you compare the items people who need the item currently has. Why are you arguing for DKP when you havnt even tried LC?

Err, I have tried LC. Didn't like it at all. Other warrior kept getting gear funneled to him, and I didn't get anything....for weeks. It's a done deal. It made me quit the game at some point. It wasn't until I rerolled on another server that I had the will to play again.

[Locknrollen]

Err, I have tried LC. Didn't like it at all. Other warrior kept getting gear funneled to him, and I didn't get anything....for weeks. It's a done deal. It made me quit the game at some point. It wasn't until I rerolled on another server that I had the will to play again.

So you dont like LC because "urr durr i didnt get gear"? Then i was correct all along, you dont belong in this discussion.
There is obviously a reason why you didnt get loot.

Come on man, you cant seriously believe your arguments have any ground

[Akasha64]

So you dont like LC because "urr durr i didnt get gear"? Then i was correct all along, you dont belong in this discussion.
There is obviously a reason why you didnt get loot.

Come on man, you cant seriously believe your arguments have any ground

The other warrior was a more veteran warrior. Has been around as a warrior longer. That's the only reason I can think of he got loot funneled to him. Though if the guild doesn't cater to its newer warriors, that is going to upset them too and stop playing the game. LC is a pretty terrible system, as it's not quantifiable who gets the loot. It's just a biased opinion. If it was DKP/EPGP, I'm pretty sure the warrior couldn't have gotten away with as many loot as he did during those last few weeks.

[Locknrollen]

The other warrior was a more veteran warrior. Has been around as a warrior longer. That's the only reason I can think of he got loot funneled to him. Though if the guild doesn't cater to its newer warriors, that is going to upset them too and stop playing the game. LC is a pretty terrible system, as it's not quantifiable who gets the loot. It's just a biased opinion. If it was DKP/EPGP, I'm pretty sure the warrior couldn't have gotten away with as many loot as he did during those last few weeks.

Now i dont know your situation, but its either you not aknowledging your own shortcomings, or a bad leadership.

To simply say that LC is a terrible system is a bad argument, infact youve come here with zero arguments really as to why dkp would be better, other than "I didnt get gear once"

Why do you think most guilds use a lootcouncil instead of dkp? Because it actually IS more fair. If you perform well or help the guild, you will get rewarded.
In a dkp system, the dude who just shows up to raids and performs terrible, has the same chance for loot as the one always on helping the guild and performing well.

[Coldfrostzero]

Loot council is the very worst thing of all time. I've been screwed over by politics and cliques in guilds so many times I despise it. I show up every raid, I come prepared, I don't screw up, and you're still going to give the piece of gear to the new guy because you don't like me? All because when I talk once a raid, "that's too much." Worse when you're ON the loot council and you see the same couple of people actively voting against you and you ask why and they say they don't want you to get gear because they don't like you. Then when you fall behind in gear to the new guy, they remove you from the raid team for "not keeping up." Fuck that noise.

DKP is flawed in that you can save up and take a ton of gear at once. It makes it really hard for a new guild member to keep up or get vital gear unless everyone else is spending their DKP at a decent rate.

I prefer Suicide Kings. You are on a list. The higher up you are, you get the piece of gear. You get one piece of gear and spreads out the gear more evenly. Makes people think about their gear choices as much as DKP, but doesn't really allow the greedy aspect. New players will climb the ladder a lot faster and get some gear. With virtually no drama either. You can set a rule of missing a few weeks of raids or something will drop you to the bottom of the list or whatever you choose.

[Akasha64]

Now i dont know your situation, but its either you not aknowledging your own shortcomings, or a bad leadership.

To simply say that LC is a terrible system is a bad argument, infact youve come here with zero arguments really as to why dkp would be better, other than "I didnt get gear once"

Why do you think most guilds use a lootcouncil instead of dkp? Because it actually IS more fair. If you perform well or help the guild, you will get rewarded.
In a dkp system, the dude who just shows up to raids and performs terrible, has the same chance for loot as the one always on helping the guild and performing well.

Good thing for you you were in a guild that did loot council in such a way that everyone agreed with. I wasn't in such a guild. DKP/EPGP to me is better because it's quantifiable. It's based on who has the highest points earned (objective), not a biased opinion by some members (subjective). Performance/skill of a member is something you should gauge during the trial phase in the guild, and by looking at their logs. If you recruited and subsequently promoted a sub-par member it's your fault.

If I ever decide to raid again in WoW, I might give a guild that I want to join—their only drawback is they use loot council—another chance, but I would do so with high anxiety, skeptically and reluctantly. Certainly not wholeheartedly.

[VigilantRose]

Loot Council is a recipe for drama.

The issue is that guilds tend to develop a core group based largely on social affinity rather than actual utility to the guild. That core group gets all the good loot while the rest of the guild is left begging for scraps because "it's in the interest of the guild". The rather obvious result of this is that players outside the core group have zero loyalty to the guild and jump ship for greener pastures the moment they become available - and it becomes abundantly obvious how critical those players actually were to the success of the guild.

In contrast, DKP systems are generally regarded as fair and encourage players to invest in the guild's success.

[Elkfingers]

Let's not pretend that points based systems can't be abused. Much like loot council, it depends how they're set up. Even then, there's plenty of bullshit that goes on like people bidding on stuff they don't really need to drive the cost up for others.

Assuming no foul play on the part of the guild's leadership, LC is just straight better. I used to help organise and run one for my guild, and we would rotate people in and out (including non-officers selected randomly from the raid) to ensure fairness and transparency, and also kept a record of who got what so we could make sure that nobody was getting shafted.

LC is the only way to make sure that loot goes where it will be utilised best in your raid. Anyone who distributes based on who they like most is a moron - the whole point of the system is to get maximum value from the loot that drops. It's very effective when done right.

[Locknrollen]

Good thing for you you were in a guild that did loot council in such a way that everyone agreed with. I wasn't in such a guild. DKP/EPGP to me is better because it's quantifiable. It's based on who has the highest points earned (objective), not a biased opinion by some members (subjective). Performance/skill of a member is something you should gauge during the trial phase in the guild, and by looking at their logs. If you recruited and subsequently promoted a sub-par member it's your fault.

If I ever decide to raid again in WoW, I might give a guild that I want to join—their only drawback is they use loot council—another chance, but I would do so with high anxiety, skeptically and reluctantly. Certainly not wholeheartedly.

You accept the lootrules when you join a guild.
I dont think you understand how a lootcouncil works. And members activity and performance fluctuates.
You give items to players based on diffrent factors, such as how much of an upgrade it is, performance, attendance, and so on.
The whole point of a LC is that it shouldnt be biased, and ive never seen that being the case EVER.
If you find yourself in a guild with an extremely unfair LC its an exception, not a rule.

As ive said before, giving everyone the same currency(DKP) for unequal amounts of work(Performance, general help in the guild outside raiding) Is REALLY unfair

[Wackooo]

There is literally 0 reason to go with something besides Loot Council unless you're a for fun guild. If you think you should be rewarded just for showing up to raid I feel sorry for you :S

[horbindr]

You accept the lootrules when you join a guild.

a corrupt loot council won't tell you they are corrupt when you join. the best you can do is ask them what criteria they base the lootcouncil decisions on and hope that actually matches how they do it.

and on the other side, if you have access to the dkp system before joining the guild, it's super boring to figure out if it's fair or not.

in reality it's more like this: the more successful the guild, the more they can get away with in abusing their members.

I dont think you understand how a lootcouncil works. And members activity and performance fluctuates.
You give items to players based on diffrent factors, such as how much of an upgrade it is, performance, attendance, and so on.
The whole point of a LC is that it shouldnt be biased, and ive never seen that being the case EVER.
If you find yourself in a guild with an extremely unfair LC its an exception, not a rule.

lootcouncil is biased by definition. it's entire point is to be biased. good ones are biased to what's best for the guild. most are biased to what's best for the core members and the GMs SO. usually it's not bad enough to really be a problem though, as if you are too biased you will have way to high player turnover, so only guilds that strike a good enough balance survive in the long run. but right now there is no long run yet in classic.

As ive said before, giving everyone the same currency(DKP) for unequal amounts of work(Performance, general help in the guild outside raiding) Is REALLY unfair

eh depends how you do it. any dkp system worth it's salt will have some protections to prevent the most common causes of abuse/inflation/etc.

in the end both dkp and loot council can be "good enough" but neither can ever be perfect. in a game where loot is sparse and the game itself easy like classic, i think i'd lean a bit more to dkp than LC.

[Fitsu]

Depends on the goal of your guild, if your just a bunch of friends playing for fun & gear then yeah sure DKP. If your actively trying to compete / get high ranks loot council is better in quite literally every way because you're able to distribute loot in a way which best prepares you for the next challenge (I.E. If it's more a heal / tank challenge vs DPS race etc.) or funnel gear to certain classes (Like rogues for Zul) or to the players you intend to take for the next challenge.

People who don't believe there is an objective guild out there are wrong, you think Method players care about there individual gear? Most people in the top 100 don't care about there individual gear because w/e gets you closer to killing the next boss is the goal for everyone and thus good for everyone. Nobody is like "I know this will be less effective on me than him for next boss but give it to me anyway".