*Spoilers* Tyrande's reaction to end of 4th war

[Mehrunes]

the nail in the coffin is when Elune reveals herself and her avatar is a human.

And then takes the Night Warrior powers away from her and gives them to Keeshan as punishment for her evil ways of not singing kumbaya with the people that wronged you.

[Darththeo]

The Alliance wouldn't be divided if the humans would have actually helped the night elves.

And Sylvanas would never have been Warchief if Thrall retook the mantle after Garrosh's action and thus Night Elves would still have a home if the orc acted.

Yes, they wouldn't be if the Humans aided more in the War of Thrones, but the issue is Tyrande's actions after that. She knows Sylvanas' goal ... she let's Sylvanas get her way. Tyrande, still stupid.

Just because Anduin was stupid doesn't discount Tyrande's stupidity.

[ringpriest]

Mandral Chadhelm nods in approval.

Staghelm wasn't wrong - he was just early!

[nonameelf]

And Sylvanas would never have been Warchief if Thrall retook the mantle after Garrosh's action and thus Night Elves would still have a home if the orc acted.

Yes, they wouldn't be if the Humans aided more in the War of Thrones, but the issue is Tyrande's actions after that. She knows Sylvanas' goal ... she let's Sylvanas get her way. Tyrande, still stupid.

Just because Anduin was stupid doesn't discount Tyrande's stupidity.

So, Tyrande should have abandoned her land and people to Sylvanas and instead helped Anduin go force the Zandalari into the Horde?

[Trassk]

Anduin was gleefully leading his forces into kill boxes most of the expansion. Not sure how that could get worse.

so now he, a faction leader, shouldn't be leading forces in a war? What?

[GreenJesus]

Listen, I hate Anduin as much as anyone else. But in a monarchy, refusing the orders of the King is considered high treason. It's not a matter of whether or not Anduin is trash. It's a matter of the laws of the land and how apparently if an Alliance lore NPC commits a crime but any time a Horde NPC so much as steps out of line, they need to be killed.

That isn't how the alliance works. There is no blood oath. Anduin technically shouldn't even be high king since it was an "elected" position and Anduin just basically inherited it for no reason.

[Darththeo]

Sylvanas couldn't have done what she did without the full support of the horde before, during and after the burning, so yeah they are totally to blame for what happened. Also Tyrande is focused on Sylvanas.

Keep in mind when Tyrande went off on this. It was in the middle of a resource war, she took what Troops she had with others away from the Alliance. During the end of the War Campaign, the other Windrunner sisters stated that Sylvanas' controlled the only army capable of taking out N'zoth.

And now, Tyrande refuses to accept all the facts for the vendetta.

Just because you can understand why someone is acting stupid doesn't mean they aren't being stupid.

- - - Updated - - -

So, Tyrande should have abandoned her land and people to Sylvanas and instead helped Anduin go force the Zandalari into the Horde?

Her people for the most part were already dead. The land destroyed. She was fighting for nothing but her own rage at the situation.

You can't win a war fighting on two fronts. While the Horde was forced into this fight on two fronts, they control the land between the two Alliance forces, allowing easier troop movement and apparently per above, had better numbers anyway.

[Every Pwny]

Keep in mind when Tyrande went off on this. It was in the middle of a resource war, she took what Troops she had with others away from the Alliance. During the end of the War Campaign, the other Windrunner sisters stated that Sylvanas' controlled the only army capable of taking out N'zoth.

And now, Tyrande refuses to accept all the facts for the vendetta.

Just because you can understand why someone is acting stupid doesn't mean they aren't being stupid.

Killing Sylvanas is perfectly rational, not trusting the horde that was trying to wipe out your people even prior to Sylvanas isn't stupid. Blindly trusting them after getting burned by them again would be beyond idiotic and poor writing for her not to be angry about the horde committing genocide against her people.

[Darththeo]

Killing Sylvanas is perfectly rational, not trusting the horde that was trying to wipe out your people even prior to Sylvanas isn't stupid. Blindly trusting them after getting burned by them again would be beyond idiotic and poor writing for her not to be angry about the horde committing genocide against her people.

Am I arguing any of that? No.

I am not saying you should blindly trust or even trust the Horde at all.

Harming your own allies for a personal vendetta, HOWEVER JUSTIFIED, is stupid.

I am not arguing against her emotions, I am arguing against her actions. She wanting Sylvanas to pay is understandable ... but it isn't rational. Her harming the Alliance for her own vendetta is stupid. Tyrande isn't acting rationally, she is acting emotionally.

[TheRagebear]

Keep in mind when Tyrande went off on this. It was in the middle of a resource war, she took what Troops she had with others away from the Alliance. During the end of the War Campaign, the other Windrunner sisters stated that Sylvanas' controlled the only army capable of taking out N'zoth.

Real convenient how the numbers of forces keeps fluctuating constantly based on the plot. Isn't that one of the things that made Game of Thrones s8 such hot garbage? Nah, instantly respawning Dothraki and unsullied didn't take me out of that story at all.

[Lumineus]

What exactly is considered the Fourth War is it just BFA?

I'm supposing the short-lived treaty between Vol'jin and Varian has fallen to the wayside of history, and that what we're calling the Fourth War encompasses everything from the Wrathgate Incident up through the Final Mak'gora.

[Every Pwny]

Am I arguing any of that? No.

I am not saying you should blindly trust or even trust the Horde at all.

Harming your own allies for a personal vendetta, HOWEVER JUSTIFIED, is stupid.

I am not arguing against her emotions, I am arguing against her actions. She wanting Sylvanas to pay is understandable ... but it isn't rational. Her harming the Alliance for her own vendetta is stupid.

Sylvanas is a threat to everyone living, it's completely rational for her to find her and neutralize her as a threat. If anything hanging back to try to rebuild her people after the horde attempted genocide against them is more rational than just throwing away the rest of her people and agreeing to a treaty where the horde yet again faces no consequences for their actions.

Real convenient how the numbers of forces keeps fluctuating constantly based on the plot. Isn't that one of the things that made Game of Thrones s8 such hot garbage? Nah, instantly respawning Dothraki and unsullied didn't take me out of that story at all.

Hey, she captured the respawn point.

[Darththeo]

Sylvanas is a threat to everyone living, it's completely rational for her to find her and neutralize her as a threat. If anything hanging back to try to rebuild her people after the horde attempted genocide against them is more rational than just throwing away the rest of her people and agreeing to a treaty where the horde yet again faces no consequences for their actions.

Except she doesn't want to kill Sylvanas because she is a threat to every living thing. She wants to kill Sylvanas for revenge on what she did to her people.
She isn't acting rationally, period. This isn't even debatable. Sylvanas caused her harm, she wants her to pay ... it's revenge, not justice, not protection. Pure revenge, that's it.

If she acted like nothing happened, that would be worse yes. But I don't care if something hypothetical would be worse, that's irrelevant. The issue is that the story could be better, and Tyrande is acting like an idiot.

[Tiwack]

Pretty sure some darkness has gotten to Tyrande or Elune one way or another shadowing them from giving their usual insight into played out events. Then again life and nature itself is under attack, could learn more in 8.3 but could as well be part of the carry over into 9.0.

[Darththeo]

Real convenient how the numbers of forces keeps fluctuating constantly based on the plot. Isn't that one of the things that made Game of Thrones s8 such hot garbage? Nah, instantly respawning Dothraki and unsullied didn't take me out of that story at all.

Pretty much. I wonder what writer at Blizzard was like "Yeah, that's a good idea to mimic."

[Every Pwny]

Except she doesn't want to kill Sylvanas because she is a threat to every living thing. She wants to kill Sylvanas for revenge on what she did to her people.
She isn't acting rationally, period. This isn't even debatable. Sylvanas caused her harm, she wants her to pay ... it's revenge, not justice, not protection. Pure revenge, that's it.

If she acted like nothing happened, that would be worse yes. But I don't care if something hypothetical would be worse, that's irrelevant. The issue is that the story could be better, and Tyrande is acting like an idiot.

Revenge yes, but Sylvanas is also a threat to everyone. She is acting very rationally, working with the horde immediately after they committed genocide against her people would be irrational. As long a Sylvanas is out there she is a threat to the night elves and all the living, of course it's revenge but it's also a logical course of action considering how powerful and evil Sylvanas is.

[Darththeo]

Revenge yes, but Sylvanas is also a threat to everyone. She is acting very rationally, working with the horde immediately after they committed genocide against her people would be irrational. As long a Sylvanas is out there she is a threat to the night elves and all the living, of course it's revenge but it's also a logical course of action considering how powerful and evil Sylvanas is.

Listen, can you actually for once address my actual argument here?

I AM NOT ARGUING THAT SHE SHOULD JUST WORK BLINDLY WITH THE HORDE.

You are continuing to post nothing that discounts anything I am actually arguing for.

You can't add to what Tyrande is doing. Honestly, there is no evidence that shows Tyrande even cares about Sylvanas' threat to all living things ... therefor you can't use that to say she is acting "rationally."

[Soon-TM]

Lol@ the 17 year old lecturing the 10k year old warrior who had her home wiped off the map.

Well, he's continuing the tradition instated by his father. But unlike him, Manduin didn't get a free pass this time.

Still, I'm loving how he's making his own father look like an even bigger idiot than he actually was, by revealing how empty were his threats at the end of MoP.

[Every Pwny]

Listen, can you actually for once address my actual argument here?

I AM NOT ARGUING THAT SHE SHOULD JUST WORK BLINDLY WITH THE HORDE.

I know, you are just saying she is being irrational for not working with the horde and that it's also irrational to want Sylvanas dead, which is what this would entail.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

This is the same Alliance ending we always get.

"Let's end the Horde before this happens again"
"Let bygones be bygones"
"They will attack us again"
"Maybe not"

*Next attack happens*

lol at this being called the Fourth War, the Horde has attacked several times between now and the Third War.

Not only that, they were willingly following her after Teldrassil and she still had massive support within the horde, there is no "only following orders" excuse here. It would be irrational of her to trust the horde after the Warsong clan, Garrosh and Sylvanas even after giving the horde Azshara after SoO, trusting the horde is just going to put whatever is left of her people in danger.

^

Mists of Pandaria's end to the faction war was poignant because - at long last - we got a decisive conclusion to the conflict between Thrall's Horde and the Alliance. Varian's choice held weight because - at that point in time - there was every reason to believe that the Horde would keep their word. The entire point of the game up until that point is that the Horde were not the crazed monsters which had haunted the Alliance in the decades before. The Horde finally found their peace, and the Alliance managed to live up to their chivalric standards. The whole point of WoD and Legion was showing us how utterly AWESOME we could be when we finally worked together. We straight up curbstomped the Iron Horde, and not only held out against the most fearsome army in the universe, but ended it.

MoP had an awesome, satisfying ending, both for the Pandaria story and World of Warcraft as a whole.

Then Blizzard just had to go back to the well to milk nostalgia points. They installed the fan favorite character, Sylvanas, as Warchief of the Horde only to pander to her fandom, even though it made absolutely no sense in universe. They killed off Vol'jin, the sensible Warchief, before he had a chance to actually do anything. They restarted the faction war storyline to milk it for nostalgia. Night Elf fans got utterly screwed over, as they will never get satisfying closure to Teldrassil. We now have to put up with Sylvanas - a god awful mustache twirling villain - as the face of our next expansion.