*Spoilers* Tyrande's reaction to end of 4th war

[Darththeo]

See exactly, you just want it all spelled out, it doesn't need to be, their full motives can be revealed as time goes on, she does not need to state it all in the couple lines she gets with Anduin. The threat of Sylvanas is well known by the audience, and the damage she did to the night elves and their dead is also well known. There is no real reason to believe Tyrande does not see Sylvanas as a threat, but you can't state it "AS FACT" (as you like to say) because it's not directly spelled out for you. Writing can be mysterious, force you to infer things based on things that happened previously or reveal things later on, it doesn't need to just spell everything out for you all the time every time someone speaks.

The shit part of the writing is the night elves having practically zero story this entire expansion, other than their genocide and then pretty much no updates on what they are doing or how they are progressing. This dialogue was fine.

It doesn't need to be spelled out. it needs to be addressed in some manner. This is my problem with you, you see everything as just a dichotomy and it isn't. It is either X or not X, and that isn't how things work.

Just because the threat is known to the audience does not mean the threat is know to the characters (that is actually evidence of shitty writing) ... well, then they did shit writing because a character that saw Sylvanas kill Saurfang was arguing for caution, meaning it is clear even someone close to Tyrande doesn't see Sylvanas as a current threat worth devoting resources too. And look at that, we can see from ONE LINE that a character realize that devoting resources to Sylvanas is a bad idea because they view her as a reduced threat ... and guess what? IT WASN'T SPELLED OUT. But, totally, couldn't remotely do anything for that with Tyrande in 5 lines ... that's too few.

The problem is they have nuggets of decent writing, but are shit all around it.

- - - Updated - - -

So you just want cold, calculating robots that never let anything other than logic guide them. Okay, cool.

Go back to Reddit and say strawman some more.

Literally, not.

You could justify in your writing Tyrande's irrationality by addressing and referencing directly in her line other aspect.

They don't need to be robots, but they need to be more than "Oh, my enemy wants me to do this ... I know, I'll do exactly that!" They never even addressed that Tyrande KNEW she was playing into Sylvanas' design ... she was just "Screw it, I am taking back Darkshore. I don't even care/remember that I know this is Sylvanas' plan." It is stupid shitty writing.

So, any complaints you have about the writing are literally null and void. To me, you are just a whiny hypocrite because if you didn't have the shit writing you would have nothing to whine about.

[dippinsawse]

The Warchief position is done for.
They have a council now.

Literally the only way for the horde to be a big threat anymore is for every single leader to agree on starting a war.
Which definitely is not gonna happen.

There's always the possibility that the horde is written in the future to be the horde again and a strong orc leader pops up and claims the title of warchief and beats the weaker races into submission.

[Moonrage]

Okay, but, no.

No? Everyone thought the Horde was going to change after Garrosh too, remember?

[Houle]

As i horde player and tyrande hater since day 1, everything tyrande says is right and she sure as hell has the right to be pissed, at both the horde and elune.
Knowing blizzard, they will most likely make her "go mad" and kill her, but seriously, she has every right to act as she does right now.
And nice to see Genn standing up for her for a moment there, before Anduins human potential changed him into a pup again.

[Soon-TM]

I'm more than a little sick of them making more contrived nonsense to justify this red vs. blue nonsense, it's time to move on already.

I'm tired of the faction war BS as well, but there is a huge, HUGE issue when it comes to "moving on already". A Teldrassil-sized issue, actually - and I say it as a Horde player.

[TheRagebear]

Literally, not.

You could justify in your writing Tyrande's irrationality by addressing and referencing directly in her line other aspect.

They don't need to be robots, but they need to be more than "Oh, my enemy wants me to do this ... I know, I'll do exactly that!" They never even addressed that Tyrande KNEW she was playing into Sylvanas' design ... she was just "Screw it, I am taking back Darkshore. I don't even care/remember that I know this is Sylvanas' plan." It is stupid shitty writing.

So, any complaints you have about the writing are literally null and void. To me, you are just a whiny hypocrite because if you didn't have the shit writing you would have nothing to whine about.

How is Tyrande not justified other than outright saying what you want her to say? Furthermore even if Sylvanas' master plan involved fracturing the Alliance in such a way (oh wait, Sylvanas has said nothing about this being her grand 4D chess move either) how would Tyrande be aware of it? Not everyone is as omniscient as "master strategist" Sylvanas, screaming at her own forces after taking one hit.

You're attributing things to the plot that just aren't real, my dude.

[Darththeo]

How is Tyrande not justified other than outright saying what you want her to say? Furthermore even if Sylvanas' master plan involved fracturing the Alliance in such a way (oh wait, Sylvanas has said nothing about this being her grand 4D chess move either) how would Tyrande be aware of it? Not everyone is as omniscient as "master strategist" Sylvanas, screaming at her own forces after taking one hit.

You're attributing things to the plot that just aren't real, my dude.

Sylvanas literally states in material provided by Blizzard that her goal was to raze Stormwind to the ground by splitting the Alliance into inaction and thus dividing them to conquer each. In the SAME material, the leaders of the Alliance put together that was Sylvanas' plan ... who include Tyrande ... FIGURED OUT THAT WAS HER GOAL.

You are literally lying now.

[allawyn]

I can see that the Blizzard is keeping the "evil" Horde meme going for the next time they want to use the villain bat.

[TheRagebear]

Sylvanas literally states in material provided by Blizzard that her goal was to raze Stormwind to the ground by splitting the Alliance into inaction and thus dividing them to conquer each. In the SAME material, the leaders of the Alliance put together that was Sylvanas' plan ... who include Tyrande ... FIGURED OUT THAT WAS HER GOAL.

You are literally lying now.

Read it again. Into inaction. Her plan was to hold the night elves hostage. Darkshore was not part of her plan and considering her limited supply of extra lives I'd say she's pretty damned stupid (or one ballsy gambler) if her plot involved letting the night elves come back, wreck the Horde's stuff, and kill one of her few remaining val'kyr.

Hell if anything the night elves and the Alliance are less inactive now. How does this go to her plan? And how would Tyrande know about this?

Please, just actually read.

[Darththeo]

Read it again. Into inaction. Her plan was to hold the night elves hostage. Darkshore was not part of her plan and considering her limited supply of extra lives I'd say she's pretty damned stupid (or one ballsy gambler) if her plot involved letting the night elves come back, wreck the Horde's stuff, and kill one of her few remaining val'kyr.

Hell if anything the night elves and the Alliance are less inactive now. How does this go to her plan? And how would Tyrande know about this?

Please, just actually read.

Inaction not because they can't fight, but rather they can't act as a cohesive unit and thus when chosen as a target they would be easier to eliminate. They can't commit to one front without causing a divide.

Tyrande literally does the split that Sylvanas wanted. She wanted the Night Elves separated from their allies ... Tyrande literally did exactly that. Yes, she came to fight and Sylvanas didn't likely expect Tyrande's actions to be so bold. Tyrande is removing herself from her allies, meaning she is an easier target.

Sylvanas wanted to hold the Night Elves hostage, in order to weaken Stormwind to take and raze Stormwind. Essentially preventing the Alliance from acting as a single opponent rather than several weaker ones. Sylvanas knows that Tyrande's or Malfurion's death will be a wound that will never heal for the Night Elves.

We know now that Sylvanas wants all to serve death. So having a particular enemy continue with a personal vendetta while letting another threat be faced elsewhere is playing into Sylvanas' plan. If Anduin can figure this shit out, why the fuck can't Tyrande?

If they used the threat as fuel for her vengeance. That threat as Tyrande's justification ... it would be better. But no, we just get Hate Hate Rage Vengeance! If you are going to have a character act irrational, you have to show some of their reasoning. Even a line along the lines of "He continues to underestimate Sylvanas." is enough to get across that Tyrande views Sylvanas still as a threat.

Right now, we can't say for sure Tyrande even views Sylvanas as a threat and not just someone she wants to bring to her brand of justice. Both are equally supported.

We had similar lines that show characters consider Sylvanas a lesser threat to N'Zoth right now ... why can't Blizzard give the same treatment to Tyrande?

[allawyn]

The Warchief position is done for.
They have a council now.

Literally the only way for the horde to be a big threat anymore is for every single leader to agree on starting a war.
Which definitely is not gonna happen.

I mean, if she wants vengeance against Sylvanas nobody is stopping her. (Though it is telling that she actually skipped the battle that was an actual fight against Sylvanas).

Otherwise, the Horde has lost every leader who hasn't, at one time or another" sided with the Alliance over the Horde. So who do they want "revenge" against? They are clearly demanding "vengeance" against anyone who is an Orc, a Forsaken, a Troll, a Druid, etc. After all, what else does "If the wolf is rabid, it matters not who rides it. Sooner or later, the beast will bare its fangs".

In the end, this is just racist genocide, but Blizzard seem to be, again, setting up that is "OK" for Alliance leaders.

[Trumpcat]

Tyrande, Genn and Jaina for Alliance council pliz.

Anduin for cheerleader.

[TheRagebear]

Inaction not because they can't fight, but rather they can't act as a cohesive unit and thus when chosen as a target they would be easier to eliminate. They can't commit to one front without causing a divide.

Tyrande literally does the split that Sylvanas wanted. She wanted the Night Elves separated from their allies ... Tyrande literally did exactly that. Yes, she came to fight and Sylvanas didn't likely expect Tyrande's actions to be so bold. Tyrande is removing herself from her allies, meaning she is an easier target.

Sylvanas wanted to hold the Night Elves hostage, in order to weaken Stormwind to take and raze Stormwind. Essentially preventing the Alliance from acting as a single opponent rather than several weaker ones. Sylvanas knows that Tyrande's or Malfurion's death will be a wound that will never heal for the Night Elves.

1.) lol that's not what inaction means

2.) Oh wait, the Alliance is now at peace with the current Horde and the night elves are pretty much crushing the Horde in Darkshore. Malfurion isn't dead and the night elves are more vengeful than they've ever been. And what does Sylvanas have to show for it? A dead val'kyr, some undead night elves, and uhh... Azerite. Maybe. What a trash tier maguffin that stuff is.

So I need you to explain to me again, being the arbiter of true, high quality writing that you are. How is this according to Sylvanas' plan and how would Tyrande know about this master plan anyway?

We know now that Sylvanas wants all to serve death. So having a particular enemy continue with a personal vendetta while letting another threat be faced elsewhere is playing into Sylvanas' plan. If Anduin can figure this shit out, why the fuck can't Tyrande?

If they used the threat as fuel for her vengeance. That threat as Tyrande's justification ... it would be better. But no, we just get Hate Hate Rage Vengeance! If you are going to have a character act irrational, you have to show some of their reasoning. Even a line along the lines of "He continues to underestimate Sylvanas." is enough to get across that Tyrande views Sylvanas still as a threat.

We had similar lines that show characters consider Sylvanas a lesser threat to N'Zoth right now ... why can't Blizzard give the same treatment to Tyrande?

Wait, where the fuck does it say Anduin knows her plan? lol

[allawyn]

Don't worry, she'll see the error of her way and return to the fold soon enough.

Or they kill her off. Either way, sad times for nelf fans.

Pretty much. Blizzard clearly thinks they can milk more plot out of the evil Horde meme. But to keep it going, you have to start calling the rank and file of the Horde evil. Which only leads to killing Horde for no other reason than the race they were born to.

So either Blizzard says that killing civilians is OK, because you can call people evil for the race they are a part of, or they make Tyrande a villain.

[Darththeo]

1.) lol that's not what inaction means

2.) Oh wait, the Alliance is now at peace with the current Horde and the night elves are pretty much crushing the Horde in Darkshore. Malfurion isn't dead and the night elves are more vengeful than they've ever been. And what does Sylvanas have to show for it? A dead val'kyr, some undead night elves, and uhh... Azerite. Maybe. What a trash tier maguffin that stuff is.

So I need you to explain to me again, being the arbiter of true, high quality writing that you are. How is this according to Sylvanas' plan and how would Tyrande know about this master plan anyway?

Well, we are dealing with two aspect here that you can't keep separate. The issue with Tyrande splitting the Alliance refers to her going back to Darkshore, not the current events.

The main Alliance leaders, including people close to Tyrande, know Sylvanas' goal is death. Yes, Tyrande wasn't there but people she claims to trust were. People saw what she did to Saurfang. People were there when N'Zoth was released. Characters know that Sylvanas maneuvered them into fighting Azshara. There is even implications they suspect Sylvanas wanted to release N'Zoth.

The forces know they have to work toward stopping N'Zoth. Tyrande is ignoring N'Zoth for the sake of a personal vendetta. She doesn't need to trust the Horde, she doesn't need to work with the Horde. However, her actions are directly weakening the Alliance which overall weakens our chances against N'Zoth. (Yes, I know it is a game, but the characters don't.) Her actions in the current state are irrational and stupid for a leader to take ... especially when she knows there are already people tracking down Sylvanas and in the eyes of what is clearly a bigger threat.

Tyrande would rather waste resources tracking down Sylvanas who people have told her is not a great of a threat right now than fight the larger issue. Old God or some Banshee with Death Magic ... which really should be the focus for our leaders here?

Tyrande is not acting rationally, her choices are stupid. They are poorly written because all they do is focus on her emotions. If you are going to write an irrational character, you make it clear that to them they are acting rationally. And you don't do that by having them mention "vengeance" for the motive every time. They have to be true to character traits you established.

[bewbew]

And that's what people said when Vol'jin was made Warchief, but look, it came back around again and the night elves got fucked over again.

You're far too deep into that Alliance roleplay.

At start of Legion, they still hoped to have significant PvP content.

Now they realize how dead the faction split is and how irrelevant it is for the core game mechanics, so they have to write a story that fits the Unifaction, or as close to it as possible.

Your previous post about "The alliance should exterminate the Horde so another war doesn't happen 2 expansions from now!" is such utter denial of game mechanics that it makes me believe you're totally Roleplaying or some crap in the forums.

No faction is ever going to be "defeated". These are player factions. Whatever happens, as long as there's two, they will be in perpetual balance.

[TheRagebear]

Well, we are dealing with two aspect here that you can't keep separate. The issue with Tyrande splitting the Alliance refers to her going back to Darkshore, not the current events.

YOU were the one criticizing her CURRENT MOTIVES (which you then jumped around saying didn't exist at all because "vengeance" isn't "rational" enough for you) and skipping between that and Darkshore where she "played into Sylvanas' hand" by wrecking the Horde there and killing one of her val'kyr.

The main Alliance leaders, including people close to Tyrande, know Sylvanas' goal is death. Yes, Tyrande wasn't there but people she claims to trust were. People saw what she did to Saurfang. People were there when N'Zoth was released. Characters know that Sylvanas maneuvered them into fighting Azshara. There is even implications they suspect Sylvanas wanted to release N'Zoth.

So then why would she have to then explain it to them? Clearly they understand she is a threat. You just desperately want her to say it out loud because...?

The forces know they have to work toward stopping N'Zoth. Tyrande is ignoring N'Zoth for the sake of a personal vendetta. She doesn't need to trust the Horde, she doesn't need to work with the Horde. However, her actions are directly weakening the Alliance which overall weakens our chances against N'Zoth. (Yes, I know it is a game, but the characters don't.) Her actions in the current state are irrational and stupid for a leader to take ... especially when she knows there are already people tracking down Sylvanas and in the eyes of what is clearly a bigger threat.

Tyrande would rather waste resources tracking down Sylvanas who people have told her is not a great of a threat right now than fight the larger issue. Old God or some Banshee with Death Magic ... which really should be the focus for our leaders here?

Her actions are weakening the Alliance that apparently didn't need the night elves to win the war, are now at peace with the Horde, and are able to focus on the threat at hand. Sure.

Tyrande is not acting rationally, her choices are stupid. They are poorly written because all they do is focus on her emotions. If you are going to write an irrational character, you make it clear that to them they are acting rationally. And you don't do that by having them mention "vengeance" for the motive every time. They have to be true to character traits you established.

... Have you like, actually been paying attention to this expansion at all? Because let me tell you Tyrande is probably the only consistent character in this trash heap and that's saying a lot.

[Logwyn]

This whole Tyrande reminds me of South Park and this episode


Maybe someone needs to sing it backward near Tyrande.

[Darththeo]

YOU were the one criticizing her CURRENT MOTIVES (which you then jumped around saying didn't exist at all because "vengeance" isn't "rational" enough for you) and skipping between that and Darkshore where she "played into Sylvanas' hand" by wrecking the Horde there and killing one of her val'kyr.

Actually, I was criticizing Tyrande completely. Your assumptions aren't my argument.

So then why would she have to then explain it to them? Clearly they understand she is a threat. You just desperately want her to say it out loud because...?

Her actions are weakening the Alliance that apparently didn't need the night elves to win the war, are now at peace with the Horde, and are able to focus on the threat at hand. Sure.

... Have you like, actually been paying attention to this expansion at all? Because let me tell you Tyrande is probably the only consistent character in this trash heap and that's saying a lot.

Go back and read my other posts ... I literally already addressed this garbage.

And no, she is among the least consistent characters. "I will not allow us to be divided by Sylvanas even if she takes my city." "Whatev, peace out. I am taking Darkshore back without your support."

That's literally not consistent. Anduin is the only consistent character because all his actions were "I want to stop the war with the lease amount of bloodshed." And even that was pretty shitty down.

[TheRagebear]

And no, she is among the least consistent characters. "I will not allow us to be divided by Sylvanas even if she takes my city." "Whatev, peace out. I am taking Darkshore back without your support."

That's literally not consistent. Anduin is the only consistent character because all his actions were "I want to stop the war with the lease amount of bloodshed." And even that was pretty shitty down.

I... You mean before and after her fucking home was burnt down? Yeah, that doesn't change people or their motives at all. Holy shit dude lol