How did blizzard manage to let class/talent design get so bad?

[Grimbold21]

Just that some classes/spec were changed into using an energy like variation.

I was perfectly content with Maelstrom being something that you built up to 5 stacks, instead of becoming just another flavor of energy.

[Wildpantz]

You're wrong about that talents dosent make a difference but i agree classes feel bad. They need to focus on making a spec fun to play at the start of the exspansion and then add whatever things they add for the current exp. However this has always been a problem the only time i rally enjoyed many specs was end of legion so much fun with full legendary and weapons.

[Swnem]

Simpler?! Wtf are talking about?! Demo locks, shadow priests, feral druids, ww monks and surv hunters, need a fucking Phd to be played at optimum performance. Demo lock can't even be played properly without addons that track imp duration and shit.

Sure, you got specs like ret, havoc dh, bm hunter, destro lock, boomkin, that are easy to play, but you also have 200 IQ specs.

I like... have nothing else to add. I think the post speaks for itself.

[Pheraz]

But it's not. By far the #1 complaint people in this game have is spec/talent design. I've never met a high-end raider in this game that thinks spec/class design issues have not been plaguing BFA since day 1.

In enjoy the current talents and specs on all of my chars (17 x 120)
I just don't like the GCD changes.
Soooo it's an opinion

[Zyky]

That's a self-fulfilling prophecy though in many respects. Herd instinct leads people to rely on simulations for the best builds without any consideration for the strengths and weaknesses of their personal play style. So if everyone is following guides or more or less forced into doing that through peer or guild pressure of course other talents won't show up in parses. It's the same sort of logic that held sway just after Blizzard "fixed" frost mages to do competitive DPS and you still couldn't get enough parses to know anything because people wouldn't play frost mages because they were "bad." It takes time for everyone to catch up and by then Blizzard and the game have moved on to a further iteration.

You can say that, but there is ALWAYS a top build, and player strengths do not play a part of it because the top build is the top build for optimal playing, if you're not playing optimally then you won't be doing top end Cutting Edge content. As the other person was attempting to say certain talents, like Explosive Shot, will never be within the top build in its current iteration and many talents are this way too.

[asil]

In enjoy the current talents and specs on all of my chars (17 x 120)
I just don't like the GCD changes.
Soooo it's an opinion

If this is what you believe, you're likely in the minority. I am completely baffled as to how anyone that plays this game at any real level can like BFA class design. Which leads me to one conclusion.

[Daevied]

I enjoy more my mage in bfa than my mage in classic, sure its cool to be able to use spells from other schools but spamming just frostbolt is really sad

[Trumpcat]

I fully agree on the matter of the majority of specs feeling rather boring and unimpressive to play in comparison to many other current games. It could be alleviated by saying that the trade off is very tight class balance, but we can't say that. There is a glaring misalignment in the performance between specs in every role be it tank/dps/healing, which isn't just about numbers but also utility tools. So both gameplay and performance are at a very disappointing state.

On the question of how did Blizzard manage to let it get so bad I hope the answer will be that they have devoted the bulk of their design power on overhauling the classes for next expansion and BfA was meant to just keep it steady until they are ready.

At this point class redesign is the only thing I am looking forward to in the next expansion, followed by plot twists and epic cutscenes.

[Beefkow]

At this point class redesign is the only thing I am looking forward to in the next expansion, followed by plot twists and epic cutscenes.

Same.

I usually don't say this, but i'm looking forward to this coming blizzcon.

I hope they announce some sweeping changes to make classes exciting, either that or I hope they continue to fall harder and harder.

[Eroginous]

You kidding? Everyone and their mothers beelined to the cookie cutter spec and proceeded to cast the very same couple of spells that worked for that spec all over and over again.

I mean, shiet - go look at Classic. You either level as a very specific frost mage spec and AoE grind dungeons or you are doing it wrong. Same with raid where you basically have 2 options and both of them end up spamming Frost Bolt, just with a small talent difference.

I am sorry, but Live we have classes that at least offer a decent opportunity to differentiate yourself in gameplay for hard results in the bottom line. It's all the same cookie cutter talent selection, but how and when you use your spells actually matters (on top of you know being "plural" there, as in spells and not that one bloody spell that makes sense to use all over again).

Honestly, cookie-cutters were bloody cornerstone of WoW in its every iteration - there was always the one best talent build to use. At some point I'd wish talent trees consisted of much more utility rows than just throughput, because at least there you have some personal choice going on to some extent, where as throughput is whatever sims tell you.

Having frost being the superior leveling spec is no different than Resto being the superior healing druid spec. The idea that people play cookie cutter specs when given choices (lol, so what?) is a laughable reason to dismiss the choices classic presents. Talents change between specs... abilities available change between specs... This is a limitation, not a set of choices. While the resulting choices might seem complex or like they represent a larger piece of your character, there used to be these things called 'hybrid specs' where you wouldn't bottom out the your main talent tree, instead opting to build around the utility in the lower parts of the tree. This might mean taking a talent that gives your roots pushback protection (pvp) and talents that reduce cost of shifting, but you have to spend points into specific trees to get those. Meaning you might have to trade utility later on in the tree. This makes things more interesting than simply 'pick one of three, you've unlocked a new teir 15 levels later.'

When you have more choices, characters become more interesting to play. I've been playing both classic and live. I've not used a single cookie cutter design for anything, not even back in vanilla. It's an option, but it's not a reason to dismiss the choices you have. Sure, use a 'cookie cutter' spec you found online. Then modify it to your play style (because that's what you have to do anyway, derp). Like, anyone who wants a competitive edge, in anything, will poll the community to see what works best. While 'best' may be subjective, considering there are different areas of the game to play, 'best' is still a good jumping off point for anyone.

I played MTG for a number of years. People net-decked and you could always tell. A genuinely good player is going to take his net deck or cookie cutter build and tailor it to his own liking, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Being able to do that is why classic represents significantly more choices than on live RN. The fact that you need to the nuance of your character sheet to understand how a build plays is indicative of superior design.

In other words, your opinion about what constitutes "great game design" is somehow more important because Blizzard released Classic. Neat. Thanks for confirming the entire known universe revolves around you. Scholars have been stumped by this existential quandary for millenia, who could've guessed we'd finally get proof on a video game message board?

I don't know why anyone bothers to post this nonsense. Even if they had never released classic, Vanilla still represents better game design than anything since. Not sure how that is so hard to grasp. The only reason anyone could call BFA titanic is if they included the entirety of Wow's expansion content, along with the original 1-60 experience. But players don't play any of it. They only play the most current expansion content, which is a very small amount of content, even when compared to what is there in Classic. Remember, I enjoy(ed) live. It's not the best version of the game, no matter how good it is.

Playing it means succumbing to the whims of Blizzard developers telling you when to value what content, which is tiresome. I don't play games to be told how to play my games. It's the same reason I'd never participate in D3 seasonal play. I play games to enjoy them, not to be pushed down a cute into the content deemed most relevant atm. Blizzard knows they can release new content and get a wave of incoming subs and box sales. They have known this for years. This is what keeps them going.

Nothing else. Factually, they are not releasing the pinnacle of MMO content every 2 years. Should probably stop acting like they are.

[Malix Farwin]

I think people underestimate the power of good class/spec design. Everything positive about MoP was ALWAYS first and foremost Class design.

BFA as far as content goes far exceeds MoP but it is regarded as the worst xpac wow has ever done. Why tho?

Is it titanforging? No, Legion had that and overall Legion was well received.

Better raids? No, Overral BFA has had better raids

Story? I mean the story is crap but so was the story in xpacs i put above BFA

The biggest thing that has been persistant in BFA from start to finish is Class Design. All these cool and interesting things they try is pointless if what you are doing on feels like crap.

[Relapses]

Nothing else. Factually, they are not releasing the pinnacle of MMO content every 2 years. Should probably stop acting like they are.

This. Is. Your. Opinion.

Your. Opinion. Can. Not. Be. A. Fact.

I don't know how else to spell this out to you. This makes the third post in a row that you have continued to pretend like there isn't even the faintest possibility that your assessment of what is or isn't great game design could be subjective.

[Eroginous]

This. Is. Your. Opinion.

Your. Opinion. Can. Not. Be. A. Fact.

I don't know how else to spell this out to you. This makes the third post in a row that you have continued to pretend like there isn't even the faintest possibility that your assessment of what is or isn't great game design could be subjective.

I'll let you know when I start sharing my opinion. I really dislike it when people ignore facts and try to dismiss them as 'opinions.' Please highlight the parts of my last 3 posts that were opinions. We'll fact check them and then you can apologize for being ignorant.

[Relapses]

I'll let you know when I start sharing my opinion. I really dislike it when people ignore facts and try to dismiss them as 'opinions.' Please highlight the parts of my last 3 posts that were opinions. We'll fact check them and then you can apologize for being ignorant.

You have repeatedly indicated that Vanilla was "better design" for a number of reasons. This is an opinion. Yet you continue to base your arguments around this predetermined "fact." This is where your entire post falls apart and it's why I keep repeating myself in every response to you.

[asil]

That's a self-fulfilling prophecy though in many respects. Herd instinct leads people to rely on simulations for the best builds without any consideration for the strengths and weaknesses of their personal play style. So if everyone is following guides or more or less forced into doing that through peer or guild pressure of course other talents won't show up in parses. It's the same sort of logic that held sway just after Blizzard "fixed" frost mages to do competitive DPS and you still couldn't get enough parses to know anything because people wouldn't play frost mages because they were "bad." It takes time for everyone to catch up and by then Blizzard and the game have moved on to a further iteration.

It's very difficult to know how bad classes really are. Historically bitching about classes is a never-ending story that's acted out every patch of every expansion. Classes were terrible in Mists according to expert forum goers at the time even though some hold them up now as the epitome of class design.

I'm not saying classes are great. I think that more than a few specs play like an out-of-tune musical instrument. You can play it but no one is going to much like the result. I'm pretty firm in my belief that the homogenization that came with "Bring the Player, not the Class" pretty much destroyed any chance of reverting back to disparate specs any time soon. And there are too fucking many specs while we're at it. Holy shit, the only thing you can do in the game is swing some sort of sharp stick at an enemy, cast either a direct damage or damage over time spell or engage in endless variations of healing your associates while dodging stuff on the ground and keeping an eye on your raid assist add-so so you don't miss anything.

Does that sound like a game that's going to have a lot of variance in it over nearly 40 different specs? Not to me. But we are where we are where visual effects now equal class flavor and fire mages aren't tossing out icy cold spells. Hurray!

Game development has painted itself into a corner over the years. They need to make some radical changes if they're going to fix it but neither Blizzard, nor forums when you get right down to it, embrace radical change.

I agree the whole bring the player not the class thing likely greatly contributed. But the whole "herd instinct" think doesn't really apply to high end raiding. there isn't enough variance in play style that would make an inferior talent actually be better for someone based on playstyle. This is the case when someone is bad at the game, but being bad isn't really a playstyle.

For example, a warlock might play SO on mythic argus because he isn't good enough to play MG on that fight, but MG is always the better talent as long as you play at the acceptable level.

The stuff you said about not having enough data for some specs is accurate, but only for specs that are just outright bad and everyone knows they're sub-par even with changes.

But the reason these same talents show up in parses is because they're just better, they're better in every situation for every play style. There's no universe where drain soul is competing with death bolt, for example.

[Relapses]

It is my opinion that the sky is Blue.

Fact? Or opinion? Honestly mate, you guys will attempt any type of roundabout reasoning to defend this company.


We'll see who's correct when Class Design receives sweeping changes and a plethora of pruned abilities make their return in 9.0.

Your pathetic God Ion has already admitted what a fuck up he is. Now he just needs to put his money where his mouth is.

At what point did I defend the current expansion? Enlighten me, please. My issue has nothing to do with what is or isn't considered great game design and everything to do with the fact that this is a subjective statement and Vanilla being "the best" is not an objective fact as @Eroginous has repeatedly indicated.

[Weatherwax]

The problem was that they revamped classes in Legion counting on the Artifact traits and legendary combinations. It worked fantastically well in Legion if you had the legendaries, but then BfA came and they screwed the pooch with Azerite gear (horrible) and Azerite neckbeard essences (lacking af).
Imo if they had given us this huge-ass grind to update the Legion legendaries we would've had a much, much better experience in BfA class-wise.

It's just a matter of comparing how much fun the classes are in Timewalk dungeons compared to the regular content. I legit enjoy TW more than regular content just because the legendaries work. Classes feel a million times better.

[Gangresnake]

I'm dumbfounded at how awful BFA talent/class are compared to Legion.
Legion had a bad start too, but they worked hard, redesigned a lot of specs and turned out in a great endgame. It look like nobody gave a shit in BFA, half the talents are completely useless since release and some specs are borderline unviable for mid-tier content.

I feel like most of my time in this xpac was spent opening MMO-Champ frontpage to see if they finally fixed the game, I sure hope the people in charge get pruned before 9.0 goes live, because I'm not doing another 2 years of this mess.

[Kallor]

On a sidenote, reading the pages here in this thread makes me wanna do a literal facepalm. The dumbest posts I see anywhere on the internet aren't from creationists, or flat earthers - it's from people on discussion forums replying to topics with phrases like "that's just your opinion" or "that's your subjective opinion".

I mean, thanks for stating the obvious? We're supposed to exchange opinions for christ sake, that's what a forum is about. Maybe come up with some good counter-arguments instead of merely stating the obvious.

[Soon-TM]

If this is what you believe, you're likely in the minority. I am completely baffled as to how anyone that plays this game at any real level can like BFA class design. Which leads me to one conclusion.

Maybe people who preferred more traditional WoW and less Diablo have already taken their leave, so the only remaining folks are those who actually enjoy Diablo 3: Forced Multiplayer Edition. !@#&ing Path of Exile has (way) more ACTUAL character customisation than WoW, and it's an ARPG ffs.