How could Necromancer work without destroying existing specs?

[Triceron]

Demon hunter turn into demons, warlocks controll demons.
Necromancer controll undead, death knights controll undead.

Consider that you say Death Knights control undead.

So how many specs does the DK have that actually controls undead? One spec defines their entire identity even though 2 entire specs don't do any Undead control at all? Seems odd to me, frankly.

I'd say Death Knights are Undead champions. That's about it.

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Warlocks weren't Demon Hunters, they just had their signature ability.

Death Knights are actually Necromancers though.

And Paladins are actually Priests in armor. Again, what is the problem here?

[dekal]

If Blizzard really wanted to, they could definitely pull it off. In my mind, a Necromancer and DK should probably be the same as priests and paladins, right?

[Teriz]

And Paladins are actually Priests in armor. Again, what is the problem here?

Where's the Paladin Shadow spec?

[Traveler Voltin]

Consider that you say Death Knights control undead.

So how many specs does the DK have that actually controls undead? One spec defines their entire identity even though 2 entire specs don't do any Undead control at all? Seems odd to me, frankly.

I'd say Death Knights are Undead champions. That's about it.

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And Paladins are actually Priests in armor. Again, what is the problem here?

until blizzard changed things. all 3 specs could use raise dead and army. i miss that

[Velerios]

Sorry, but i don't understand this absolute unneccessary discussion: why would there be any issue at all? We already have Holy Paladin and Holy Priest: Both heal with Holy Light, still you can't even compare them.

So why would it matter if Unholy has an undead pet and Death Knights Army of the Dead? What does they have in common: they both use undead. But nothing more. Death Knights have a pet, that is just a small addition: unholy is more about diseases. Army of the Dead is one of the iconic Death Knights spells: you create instantly an Army that attacks the enemy. And that's it.

Just because there might be an "unholy" necromancer with focus on the undead does not mean that they need to interfere with Death Knights at all. As Holy Paladins and Priest does not interfere with each other. An Pet have many classes, just make the pets different. And don't give Necromancer Army of the Death, that's one of the iconic Death Knight Spells. They can have an army, but not instantly created by a single spell as a cooldown.

Death Knights are Melee-Class, Necromancer isn't. So i doubt that there will be much of an interference between them.

[Kyriani]

If I were to make a Necromancer class for WoW it would look something like this. But please forgive the half-finished ideas. This is just off the top of my head:

Class: Necromancer

Armor Type: Cloth

Specializations: Hemomancy, Reanimation, Spirtualism

Hemomancy: Ranged DPS role focusing on dealing damage through direct damage spells.

Active Abilities: Blood Bolt, Siphon Blood, Rain of Blood, Blood Pool, Blood Shield, Congeal Blood, Bloodflow, Blood Simulacrum

Passive Abilities: Leech Vitality

Mastery: Improves damage dealt and Leeched Vitality's leech by X amount.

Descriptions:

Blood Bolt - Basic Nuke like Fireball or Shadowbolt
Siphon Blood - Channeled damge + health drain similar to Drain Life
Rain of Blood - Channeled AoE with no cooldown similar to the original Blizzard spell
Blood Pool - Damage reduction cooldown + movement speed boost similar to Dispersion
Blood Shield - Damage Absorption spell similar to Ice Barrier
Congeal Blood - Channeled cooldown, summons blood droplets that attack the target - similar to Army of the Dead
Bloodflow - Movement ability similar to the Void Dash ability granted to players during the Alliance War Campaign
Blood Simulacrum - Similar effect to Mirror Image
Leech Vitality - passive percentage of leech

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Reanimation: Ranged DPS role focusing on dealing damage through a combination of direct damage spells and pets.

Active Abilities: Bone Spike, Siphon Essence, Bone Spray, Essence Transfer, Bone Armor, Animate Patchwerk Horror, Animate Skeletal Archer, Animate Bone Ravager

Passive Abilities: Linked Essence

Mastery: Improves damage dealt, pet damage, and damage reduction from Linked Essence

Descriptions:

Bone Spike - Basic Nuke like Fireball or Shadowbolt
Siphon Essence - Channeled damge + health drain similar to Drain Life
Bone Spray - Channeled Cone aoe damage similar to the Hunter Barrage talent with no cooldown
Essence Transfer - Pet healing ability similar to Health Funnel
Bone Armor - Self only Damage Absorption cooldown similar to Life Cocoon
Animate Patchwerk Horror - Summons a melee focused tanking pet with taunt (only one pet can be active at a time)
Animate Skeletal Archer - Summons a ranged focused dps pet with snare ability (only one pet can be active at a time)
Animate Bone Ravager - Summons a melee focused dps pet with interrupt (only one pet can be active at a time)
Linked Essence - While a pet is summoned, the Necromancer takes X% less damage

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Spiritualism: Healing Role that uses a variety of different skills to sustain allies.

Active Abilities: Soul Blast, Spirit Lash, Spirit Drain, Soulmending, Call the Spirit, Call the Souls, Spirit Invigoration, Soul Binding,

Passive Abilities: Spirtual Sustanence

Mastery: Improves damage and healing done

Descriptions:

Soul Blast - Basic Nuke like Fireball or Shadowbolt
Spirit Lash - Direct damage that chains to up to 3 nearbty targets, similar to chain lightning, also smart heals up to 3 party members for a percentage of the damage dealt
Spirit Drain - DoT damage similar to Shadow Word: Pain
Soul Mending - Single Target Heal similar to Flash Heal
Call the Spirit - Single Target Resurrection
Call the Souls - Mass Resurrection
Spiritual Invigoration - AoE healing spell similar to Prayer of Healing
Soul Binding - Single target general CC
Spiritual Sustenance - passive ticking heal aura similar to ysera's gift


This is just a basic idea and yes each spec does have similar stuff from other classes but as a whole I think this concept provides a unique overall class experience. It's only a pet class as Reanimation Spec and its not super "summon a bunch of dudes" the way Demonology is today. It's a more mage-like class as Hemomancy spec. And finally unlike mages or warlocks, it has a healing spec. Maybe no one else would, but I'd totally play something like this.

[jellmoo]

Can it be done? Absolutely.

Is it possible to create a satisfying Necromancer class with fun abilities and cool visual? Yup.

Will there be some overlap with existing classes, notably Warlocks and Death Knights? Very, very likely.

Is that a problem? Assuming those classes don't get gutted? Not really.

Should Blizzard add a class that's potentially thematically and mechanically similar to already existing classes? That's the 64 million dollar question.

[Triceron]

until blizzard changed things. all 3 specs could use raise dead and army. i miss that

but that's what I mean. They changed it. And that informs us of what a class is and does.

Same with Warlock, people say 'DH turns into demons, Warlocks summons them'. Well for a while, Warlock did both. So why would anyone ask for a DH if a Warlock did both; it would make no sense if these themes are the only basis we're using to compare any two classes.

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Where's the Paladin Shadow spec?

Where's the Death Knight's Mana bar?

[Traveler Voltin]

but that's what I mean. They changed it. And that informs us of what a class is and does.

Same with Warlock, people say 'DH turns into demons, Warlocks summons them'. Well for a while, Warlock did both. So why would anyone ask for a DH if a Warlock did both; it would make no sense if these themes are the only basis we're using to compare any two classes.

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Where's the Necromancer's Runeblade?

paladins are infused with light. priests just channel the light or shadow

[plz delete account]

People also say "Dark Ranger = hunter because they share one theme lol"

That they use bows and arrows. Maybe crossbows at most.

Dark Rangers don't even fit in the Hunter culture. The reason they were even featured in the Hunter class hall was because they needed a bow-using undead.
The dark ranger could have just as easily fit into Acherus. Actually, even more than the hunter class hall.

[Nurvus]

I don't understand why the gymnastics to try and make Necromancer "viable" when it's extremely easy to do so.

Diablo 2 and even 3 offers lots of stuff to go by, and Warcraft has plenty of stuff inspired by Diablo and vice-versa.

1 - Bone Spells
Physical damage ranging from partial to full armor ignore.
Bone Dagger - Simple single target
Bone Spear - Powerful single target
Bone Cradle/Claws/Throne (powerful AoE from the ground with a delay)
2 - Destructible Debuffs
Instead of having to dispel a Root/Immobilize, how about you have to break that Bone Prison around or Bone Wall in front of you?
3 - Versatile Skeleton Army
Instead of picking 1 among multiple summons, Necromancer would instead have a certain Capacity, and create his own combination of Minions, which could range from multiple weak to a few strong to even a single powerful one.
Could even have a balancing factor where more summoned minions mean the Necromancer himself deals less damage to compensate.

The most basic would probably be something like Soldier or Archer that you can summon straight up, while more advanced ones might incluide Wizard, Berserker and Knight and the most powerful ones something like Reaper, Titan, Bone Wraith (Lord Marrowgar) and Lich, and somewhere along the way you would be required to combine minions and/or spend additional resources or depend on specific procs.

Then you could have a bunch of Minion management spells:
Bone Nova - AoE around a chosen minion
Bone Explosion - Sacrifice a Minion for damage

And that's just the Bone Spells part.

2 - Death/Soul/Spirit Spells - Direct Damage & Minion Management
Spells inspired in Bone Spirit from Diablo 2, as well as other spells and effects that actively buff your minions directly or indirectly, sacrificing minions to gain health, etc.

3 - Curses and/or Diseases

[Swnem]

People also say "Dark Ranger = hunter because they share one theme lol"

That they use bows and arrows. Maybe crossbows at most.

Dark Rangers don't even fit in the Hunter culture. The reason they were even featured in the Hunter class hall was because they needed a bow-using undead.
The dark ranger could have just as easily fit into Acherus. Actually, even more than the hunter class hall.

Does every thread need this?

The arrow and bow isn't a theme, it's a mechanic. The theme is nature and hunting.

Dark Rangers don't fit the theme indeed, but they share the mechanic. So, they would make more sense as a class skin of some sort rather than a new class. Replacing the nature parts with death/shadow parts.
Acherus is for Death Knights, who are completely at odds with followers of Sylvanas (they work with the Lich King). So, that wouldn't work at all.

With that said, opinions are opinions and people are getting really heated about this class thing, like it maters at all what we say now. The new class has already been decided. The footage and unveil is lined up for 2 weeks for now. Whatever it is, it isn't getting changed now. No use getting heated up about it.

[Triceron]

paladins are infused with light. priests just channel the light or shadow

Which is purely a WOW definition.

Which to say the least, we have no true WoW definition of a Necromancer. We don't know what limits there are in play, what types of magic they do and don't use, which demigods/gods they appeal to etc.

Death Knight is purely a manifestation of the Scourge in the form of a playable class. So it makes sense to give them anything and everything Scourge related. Yet in WoW, we've been exposed to multiple forms of Necromancy expanding cultures and realms; things that make no sense being applied to a Death Knight. Troll DK's don't make bargains with Bwonsamedi, they don't appeal to Helya or use Alchemy or ever tap into the powers of a titan-experiment Old God.

And with Sylvanas showing us new 'Death' powers that have never been seen before (at least in Thalyssra's eyes), there's something to expand on beyond the Scourge.

In this case, Death Knights channel magic through Runeblades, Necromancers explore and master the Unholy arts.

[plz delete account]

Does every thread need this?

Maybe you are mixing things up? The arrow and bow isn't a theme, it's a mechanic. The theme is nature and hunting.

Dark Rangers don't fit the theme indeed, but they share the mechanic. So, they would make more sense as a class skin of some sort rather than a new class. Replacing the nature parts with death/shadow parts.
Acherus is for Death Knights, who are completely at odds with followers of Sylvanas (they work with the Lich King). So, that wouldn't work at all.

I was more of saying Dark Rangers more fit the theme of Acherus then they do the Trueshot Lodge.

In addition, night elf Forsaken and those risen since Cataclysm have no quarrel with the Lich King. They don't even know Bolvar is the new LK, nor do they care. Their quarrels happen to be with, you guessed it; Sylvanas and Elune (for the undead night elves), and the new Forsaken don't particularly care what happened.


Regardless, we should be fleshing out the specs as I've now outlined in the OP.

[Traveler Voltin]

the thing with dark ranger is more of "is there enough for more than 1 spec?"

[huth]

IMO the best option would be to not base them on Scourge Necromancers, but Drust and Bwonsamdi's magic. This would completely bypass the Death Knight issue. Maybe add Helya for a third spec.

[Nfinitii]

Hey, it's Lilithvia here.

I've been trying to brainstorm ways Necromancer could work, without destroying Warlock or DK as it is.

I'll post the best ideas here and try to form suggestions into a three spec class, with credits going where credit is due.

One: Necromancer only needs one mass-summon spec. Let UDKs summon powerful banshees or val'kyr or gargoyles. The necromancer's place is with the ghouls and the zombies and the Abominations and the skeletons.

Two: Necromancer could fill a unique Support role that we don't see in modern WoW, while fulfilling the DPS or Healer roles.

Three: Necromancers could be capable of healing by removing broken bones, sewing up wounds, and the like. Necromancer's healing role would be extremely melee based.

Thoughts as of end of page 1:


Inspired from page three (40ppp)



In addition; I think Necromancers should be using a similar resource to DKs;

While obvious they won't be using runes since they'll be using corpses, Nothing stops them from using Runic Power.


SPEC#1: Summoning DPS

-Uses Corpses and Runic Power. Corpses are used up when summoning. Very micromanage-heavy spec, and all damage abilities are acted out through 4-5 permanent minions. Damage abilities use up runic power; player would need some way to create runic power; maybe from soaking damage through minions, or placing effigies?

SPEC#2 Support-ish Healer DPS hybrid

-Uses Runic Power and Mana

- Has a Val'kyr and a Banshee out, but only one or the other depending on stance; Val'kyr for buffing or brezzing, Banshee for debuffing or buff/debuff clearing. Val'kyr and Banshee would have their own ultimate abilities; example being Banshee being able to Possess a hostile mob, Val'kyr's being sacrificing itself to prevent a player from taking fatal damage, instead healing them to full. Losing a Val'kyr would limit you to using the Banshee for five minutes, and same vic versa. Both Val'kyr and Banshee stances would allow you to heal.

SPEC#3 Potion throwing, bone shoving healer
Uses Corpses and Runic Power. Lots of abilities that have charges. Limited range as a result, so would need to be mobile.

The dk’s runic power is based on them using a runed blade and doesn’t fit the necromancer theme.

They use magic similar to mages and warlock so a primary system of mana, maybe u could use a secondary resource like corpses which will probably end up being similar to warlocks soulshards.

Most of the classes r based off Warcraft 3 units, so the necromancer and lich. One summons undead, curses and uses unholy frenzy. (Warlock and dk abilities currently.) the other very frost based similar to the current frost Mage.

Necromancer will be based off of death magic, diseases and frost magic. Not sure there is enough there to make a compelling class different enough from warlocks, mages and death knights. The class would probably be another pure dps, sure u can probably stretch it for healing but I doubt it.

[Traveler Voltin]

yes lets give cloth another class while mail still has 2.
I just felt like saying that.

[Teriz]

Where's the Death Knight's Mana bar?

Where does it say that Necromancers must use mana?

[cparle87]

Necromancy has nothing to do with Fel tho.

You do remember that the Scourge were created by Kil'jaeden, right? There's literally nothing that prevents a lore character from wielding multiple sources of power. Hell, there's nothing that prevents player characters from doing so.