Was Yogg-Saron a traitor?

[MrSaggins]

Looking back at the lord-octopus of Northrend with the gift of hindsight, I can’t help but wonder about his motivations. For an Old God of the Void Lords he seemed really fixated on death. Some of his spells were death-related (even his Hearthstobe effect). He had the blue-green hue common of death-related individuals in Blizzard IPs. He talked on and on about death in the visions of his mind; the death of the blue dragons, the way that deaths like King Llane’s from faction wars somehow feed him, and the seeming inevitability of the death of any king — a sentiment Terenas eerily echoed to his son when his soul was released from the Nathrezim blade.

At the throat of the world since the days of the Azerothian Pangea and seemingly adjacent to whatever portal to the Shadowlands that Icecrown seems to be, Yogg would presumably have the closest connection and insight to “the enemy of all” (Death) of any of the Void-allied. His quote “only death is eternal” eerily echoes Sylvanas at Vol’jin’s funeral, almost sounding like a dejected abandonment of any hope to ever achieve the designs of his creators (perhaps seeing even the Void Lords as kings who can’t rule forever and must ultimately kneel to Death.) He talks about “the next [life]” and how there is no escape even in death.

His puzzle box even mentions sleep and how nothing breathes (is alive?) beneath the giant rook’s shadow. Not unlike the tall-shadowed Mueh’zala (the Father of Sleep), Yogg (“the Lucid Dream”) shapeshifts throughout the fight. He was responsible for the Curse of Flesh that would age mortals and make them more vulnerable to death, as well as the corruption of the Emerald Dream — echoing Sylvanas’ essentially destroying a world tree and making herself “the enemy of all life.” And if Mueh’zala was the creature who bargained with Odyn then from his point of view he got a great deal when Yogg-Saron twisted Helya to seal the Prime Designate away so that he couldn’t use his powers from the Shadowlands to interfere with Mueh’zala’s plans (until recently.) Even Yogg’s chosen form of the levitating female Vrykul Sara seems tied to Val’kyr, who are tied to Helya and Odyn, who’s power to make Val’kyr is (probably) tied to Mueh’zala.

So did Yogg “strike a bargain with the enemy of all” as the Light had? Assuming Blizz had all of this clearly hashed out 12 years ago seems far-fetched (or even earlier considering Arthas’ journey through Azjol’nerub), but it is something they could retroactively explain without retcon. I’m honestly not sure what any of these correlations would even mean going forward with Yogg dead and all, but as he died he seemed pretty certain that our fates were sealed anyway. He seems to view the Void Lords’ “seeding” of Azeroth as irrelevant in the face of unavoidable annihilation and Death’s ultimate victory. And his corpse will supposedly “choke this land”, the “throat of the world” as Malfurion called Northrend. And if Yogg-Saron’s spirit passes on to the Shadowlands with the collective amassed psychic energy or whatever he meant by “a thousand deaths or one murder... only [making him] stronger” (thinking of doubt, pride, etc. feeding the Sha/Y’Sharaj in Pandaria) then that could potentially be a major source of power for Mueh’zala to feed on; as would Yogg’s siblings — which is possibly the fate the Titans temporarily avoided by imprisoning them. But this isn’t the only explanation.

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Also meant to mention another tie between Yogg and Sylvanas with Saronite being the only thing capable of granting her banshee soul the true death in Edge of Knight. And to mention that Frostmourne was created by the Nathrezim who also dabbled in death and void magic with Old God knowledge, and that Primordial Saronite was instrumental in forging Shadowmourne.

[iamthedevil]

Or it was just the theme of the expansion and Northrend.

[Leyre]

Or it was just the theme of the expansion and Northrend.

Gtfo with that logic

[Kithelle]

It's not like C'thun didn't have his share of lines about death...maybe he just wasn't as death crazy? You...will...die. Your heart will explode.

Maybe it was before they developed this whole Undeath and The Void are incompatible thing?

[Foolicious]

Some of his spells were death-related (even his Hearthstobe effect)

Thats N'zoth. He revives deathrattle minions, whereas Yogg-saron casts random spells based on the number of cast spells in the game.

Still possible, but hard to tell since we still don't know what the shadowlands exactly are.

[Zyky]

It's not like C'thun didn't have his share of lines about death...maybe he just wasn't as death crazy? You...will...die. Your heart will explode.

Maybe it was before they developed this whole Undeath and The Void are incompatible thing?

Ya but Yogg was actually the god of death. C'thun was the god of chaos.

[MrSaggins]

Or it was just the theme of the expansion and Northrend.

Yeah, but the implied connections between Yogg and Arthas (and the points of contrast) like this were heavily speculated upon even when Ulduar was progression. I remember being like “God of Death, but what does that meeeean? And now I’m wondering if it’s possible he wasn’t referring to himself in the third person, but another...

It's not like C'thun didn't have his share of lines about death...maybe he just wasn't as death crazy? You...will...die. Your heart will explode.

Maybe it was before they developed this whole Undeath and The Void are incompatible thing?

Oh 100%, or at least before they fleshed out their planned correlations anywhere close to what I’m suggesting. But in the context of the story as perceived from the inside nothing has to be retroactively altered to make this work. They were definitely working with more information behind the curtain than what we were shown.

[derpkitteh]

this is what i really hope they go with.

the idea of an old god essentially gaining its free will and becoming its own master is incredibly interesting to me for some reason. i've felt like xal'atath achieved it as well, but i'm not entirely sure. yogg though, he definitely feels like he's gone beyond the void lords.

i'm a little annoyed they're pushing mueh'zala as this big death entity. i realize it's entirely possible he's not an actual loa, and the trolls just call him one. but if he is intended to be an actual loa, it'll feel lame for him to be this be-all-end-all death god.

[MrSaggins]

Thats N'zoth. He revives deathrattle minions, whereas Yogg-saron casts random spells based on the number of cast spells in the game.

Still possible, but hard to tell since we still don't know what the shadowlands exactly are.

Oh right, thank you.

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Ya but Yogg was actually the god of death. C'thun was the god of chaos.

But what do those titles mean though?

[Kyphael]

Yogg-saron a traitor to the Void Lords? That's an interesting idea given the ambiguity behind his "I am the God of Death!" lines. It would set him apart from the pack, though it makes me wonder how much Void Lords would even care given it's in Old God nature to war with each other anyway, as long as it destroys the planet they're infecting. Yogg-Saron, C'thin, Y'shaarj and N'zoth weren't exactly buddies, their minions fought over territories of Azeroth, vicariously inflicting damage to it in their war, no doubt. To that extent, would it matter if Yogg-Saron is 'betraying" the Void Lords, if betrayal is even applicable given his mission is contamination and destruction, and he's achieving that by doing war with the others.

[Black Goat]

Interesting theory. I don't think Blizzard's writers have the mental capacity for such a long-game like that, though. It would be cool if they did! They've REALLY dropped the ball lately.

Thats N'zoth. He revives deathrattle minions, whereas Yogg-saron casts random spells based on the number of cast spells in the game.

Still possible, but hard to tell since we still don't know what the shadowlands exactly are.

Hearthstone cards and mechanics are neither canon nor indicative of anything regarding the lore of Warcraft.

[MrSaggins]

i'm a little annoyed they're pushing mueh'zala as this big death envtity. i realize it's entirely possible he's not an actual loa, and the trolls just call him one. but if he is intended to be an actual loa, it'll feel lame for him to be this be-all-end-all death god.

Yeah, assuming Mueh’zala is the one who put Vol’jin up to making Sylvanas Warchief then he isn’t a Loa “but something far more powerful.” That said, his confusion and representation as a Loa is understandable because that’s probably the highest idea of a being troll society has. Like how they call Wisps Loa. It just means like a great spirit, but shouldn’t be confused with the specific power level of a Wild God.

[mickybrighteyes]

I don't think the lore really sticks to much of a continuity except for what gets retconned in the most recent arcs.

[MrSaggins]

Yogg-saron a traitor to the Void Lords? That's an interesting idea given the ambiguity behind his "I am the God of Death!" lines. It would set him apart from the pack, though it makes me wonder how much Void Lords would even care given it's in Old God nature to war with each other anyway, as long as it destroys the planet they're infecting. Yogg-Saron, C'thin, Y'shaarj and N'zoth weren't exactly buddies, their minions fought over territories of Azeroth, vicariously inflicting damage to it in their war, no doubt. To that extent, would it matter if Yogg-Saron is 'betraying" the Void Lords, if betrayal is even applicable given his mission is contamination and destruction, and he's achieving that by doing war with the others.

Yeah you’re right, it’s pretty hard to classify traitors among the chaos of the Void as easily as it would for followers of the Light. It’s entirely possibly the Void Lords are just investors looking to diversify their portfolios and explore every possible avenue of on the road to final victory, including death magic. And the whole time the chaos of psychic energy/“souls” (or whatever you want to call the persistent continuity of identity after death) were feeding the forces of the Shadowlands with no loss. The power the Void Lords pooled and gave of themselves to infest the physical universe, and if the psychic energy/“souls” of the Old Gods went to the Shadowlands (and not to mention the Legion’s pan-universal genocide on top of everything) then that’s a net loss of power for the Void Lords. Sunk costs they’re presumably not ever seeing a return on. But that’s all assuming scientific laws of conservation of mass and energy apply here (as they seem to in the Elemental Planes.)

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I don't think the lore really sticks to much of a continuity except for what gets retconned in the most recent arcs.

Well hopefully they’ll stick to the line of changing the perceptions players/in world characters had based on limited information, simply altering perception rather than hard facts they gave us.

[kiramon]

Yeah you’re right, it’s pretty hard to classify traitors among the chaos of the Void as easily as it would for followers of the Light. It’s entirely possibly the Void Lords are just investors looking to diversify their portfolios and explore every possible avenue of on the road to final victory, including death magic. And the whole time the chaos of psychic energy/“souls” (or whatever you want to call the persistent continuity of identity after death) were feeding the forces of the Shadowlands with no loss. The power the Void Lords pooled and gave of themselves to infest the physical universe, and if the psychic energy/“souls” of the Old Gods went to the Shadowlands (and not to mention the Legion’s pan-universal genocide on top of everything) then that’s a net loss of power for the Void Lords. Sunk costs they’re presumably not ever seeing a return on. But that’s all assuming scientific laws of conservation of mass and energy apply here (as they seem to in the Elemental Planes.)

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Well hopefully they’ll stick to the line of changing the perceptions players/in world characters had based on limited information, simply altering perception rather than hard facts they gave us.

Not that blizzard has the mental dexterity to create falsehoods, but this ultimate death god failing sylvanas and being weaker than he implies would be much cooler...

[MrSaggins]

Not that blizzard has the mental dexterity to create falsehoods, but this ultimate death god failing sylvanas and being weaker than he implies would be much cooler...

Yeah frailty can be a really cool theme for a villain. Personally my head canon image of a go-to humanoid form Mueh’zala is a robed priest. Something like Imhotep in The Mummy crossed with Supreme Leader Snoke from Star Wars. Egyptian could be a powerful theme if they want to make him seem ancient. Anubis in American Gods also comes to mind.

[Thage]

From a Doylist POV, it's because Yogg was written before the diametric opposition between Death as a cosmic, metaphysical concept and the Void as a cosmic, metaphysical concept, and reconciling this has been overlooked in Chronicle.

From a Watsonian POV, it's likely not so much that Yogg cut a deal as perhaps that Yogg acted in open defiance of Death by claiming its portfolio and souls for his own. Right now there's evidence that various entities can lay claim to souls, interrupting their 'natural' journey to whatever afterlife they're supposed to go to; it stands to reason that Yogg-Saron can emulate such an afterlife with the Void's inherently-malleable existence and scoop up souls for his own purposes, styling himself as a death god. In some fashion, he may even have considered doing such a means of providing the Void with a way to fight Death, by using Death's powers against it in much the same way warlocks and demon hunters did for the Burning Legion, or death knights did for the Scourge, or indeed, much like how void elves and shadow priests do for the Void itself.

[MrSaggins]

From a Watsonian POV, it's likely not so much that Yogg cut a deal as perhaps that Yogg acted in open defiance of Death by claiming its portfolio and souls for his own. Right now there's evidence that various entities can lay claim to souls, interrupting their 'natural' journey to whatever afterlife they're supposed to go to; it stands to reason that Yogg-Saron can emulate such an afterlife with the Void's inherently-malleable existence and scoop up souls for his own purposes, styling himself as a death god. In some fashion, he may even have considered doing such a means of providing the Void with a way to fight Death, by using Death's powers against it in much the same way warlocks and demon hunters did for the Burning Legion, or death knights did for the Scourge, or indeed, much like how void elves and shadow priests do for the Void itself.

Yeah, great explanation. That’s why I initially had to append “But this isn’t the only explanation.” to my original post. Xavius and the Nightmare might be another example of void guys reaching out and mixing it up with another school of magic.

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From a Doylist POV, it's because Yogg was written before the diametric opposition between Death as a cosmic, metaphysical concept and the Void as a cosmic, metaphysical concept, and reconciling this has been overlooked in Chronicle.

But Yogg was written just the same, right? I mean N’zoth was first mentioned at BlizzCon in August of 2009 and Ulduar had just come out four months earlier. Surely his quotes had some plan or grand scheme in mind and they weren’t meaningless.

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Sorry, what I’m asking is if the Titans might have known that (if it is the case) the death of all of the old gods would feed the Shadowlands to the point of it being a problem even back then.


Before the last shadow falls, the Father of Sleep shall savor his feast.