Lich King losing was bullshit

[Syegfryed]

Losing LIKE THAT, it was the bullshit, its indefensible

i got it they want her to break the ceiling against the scourge patriarchy but that was bullshit, she didn't had a single scratch, not even the slightest of difficulty, she just go there and fuck everyone, its obnoxious she can do literally anything she want

she had more problem breaking the fucking helmet lmao

what pisses the fuck out of me is how they seeing they did shit they will make Bolvar more proeminente saying "see guys! he is not done already! he will fight he will kick some ass"


STOINKS

[Mirishka]

Agreed with all you said of Bolvar, but I quite liked that the fight was very one-sided. Bolvar seems still to have story in Shadowlands, and this defeat (and that he was so overmatched) may well be essential to it. *And* provide good material for his story.

I would have disliked it less if we hadn't just seen another 'LOL REKT' one-sided fight between Sylvanas and Saurfang.

And yeah I'm hopeful that he gets to have a role in her comeuppance, but the way they handled Tyrande's story does not give me much hope.

[RadasNoir]

First off, orcs are almost twice as strong as even the most fit human. And Saurfang was a champion among champions of the orcs.

He was still an old orc, and always seemed pretty emotionally drained in any of the cinematics.

Not only that, he talked her into losing her calm, while she was simultaneously VASTLY underestimating him.

Didn't she only lose her cool after he managed to get a surprise attack in? Again, she was dancing around him and monologue-ing the rest of the fight. While she definitely underestimated Sadfang, she certainly didn't seem to take Bolvar very seriously either, if her little smug smirks throughout the fight were any indication.

Saurfang also had, arguably, a weapon specifically designed to fight targets like Sylvanas. One of the two swords that combines to form Shalamayne is Shalla'tor, which translates to "SHADOW RENDER".

Alright, you may have a point there. Might explain why her scar hasn't healed, as well.

Meanwhile you have the Bolvar-LK, who's using some random hammer....

It was obviously no SHADOW RENDER, but I should hope that the Jailor of the Damned would have something a bit meatier than "some random hammer". If that's really all it was, that's further evidence of silly writing.

And "empowered by the red dragonflight"? Where do you get that from. The only thing the red fire did was manage to keep him alive when he otherwise should have died.

Sorry, I added that part in more for dramatic effect.

Not to mention that the entire time Bolvar is playing directly into the plans and strategy of a calm and collected Sylvanas. Not the flustered, angry, underestimating Sylvanas that Saurfang fought.

Again, Sylvanas didn't seem flustered until Saurfang actually got a hit in, she didn't seem to be taking the fight with Bolvar any more seriously and STILL utterly curb-stomped him, and Bolvar, for his credit, also seemed to be pretty chill (no pun intended) throughout the whole fight as well. I'm not really sure what he could have done differently. He kind of swung wildly with his hammer, but a giant hammer's not exactly a great weapon for more subtle techniques, yeah?

You guys need to check yourselves. I'm not even a Sylvanas fanboi. I'm just a guy who sees what's actually going on in this fight.

You'll forgive me if I feel that empirical evidence seems to suggest otherwise....

[Combatbutler]

Losing LIKE THAT, it was the bullshit, its indefensible

Yeah it was brutal and way over the top, it was almost like a player beating the ever living shit out of Arthas for his mount each week.

[Syegfryed]

not suprise this lore and crap storytelling is getting so fucking worse, the fanbase see bullshit like this and swallow because a shit and shallow excuse like "well she was being buffed, make sense, next" or "we have to wait and see" we fucking wait the entire bfa and still sucks hairy balls

[Mirishka]

It's understandable she would win when you take into account the increased power feeding The Maw gives her. Sylvanas wields power that's not her own, which apparently trumps even the Lich King. I think it makes sense, considering the Helm of Domination is an artifact created in the Shadowlands. How could it give it's wielder more power than a direct connection to the second most powerful being of the realm (I'm assuming Arbiter is more powerful than the Jailer, at least as long as The Maw isn't too bloated)? Bolvar also lacked Frostmourne, which I believe represented the bulk of Arthas's direct combat capabilities. Unless there's a story with that hammer I don't know about?

Where Blizz stumbled was optics; we weren't in on the facts until, well, after the fact. For the longest time Sylvanas's machinations have been hidden from us, so it's hard to accept power creeps like this at face value. We still don't know when Sylvanas made contact with the Jailer. Was it part of the deal with Helya? Or at some point of the war? It's been some time since I read A Good War, but I recall we got to read some of Sylvanas's thoughts there and it looked like burning Teldrassil really was plan B after Malf survived. I don't know, considering the facts it feels like Blizz has reconstructed their plans as they go. Such incoherence is bad, as was evident in WoD.

Very well said. Now that we have some basic understanding of her increased power level it makes more sense, but there's been so much that was cryptic/hidden from us that it hurt the presentation of these fights.

[PuppetShowJustice]

It's understandable she would win when you take into account the increased power feeding The Maw gives her.

Is it? Lich King magic means you can summon ice storms. Sylvanas is strong but she's still an archer. Arrows don't fly through blizzard conditions. Literally all he had to do was create a storm at the start of the fight and let it rage. Instead, for some reason, he waits until she slaughtered all his troops and has literally emptied her quiver into his body before he thinks to Howling Winds at her.

He could have shut her down. He just didn't because the plot demanded she win.

[Denymeplz]

not suprise this lore and crap storytelling is getting so fucking worse, the fanbase see bullshit like this and swallow because a shit and shallow excuse like "well she was being buffed, make sense, next" or "we have to wait and see" we fucking wait the entire bfa and still sucks hairy balls

But this time it makes complete sense except for the lich king widows on this thread, sylvannas didnt beat the lich king, she probably wouldnt, she beat a corpse with a crown, whats the hard part about that? please elighten me.

[Mirishka]

It was obviously no SHADOW RENDER, but I should hope that the Jailor of the Damned would have something a bit meatier than "some random hammer". If that's really all it was, that's further evidence of silly writing.

Nah, that hammer is powerful. It literally changed the magic permeating through his body, that IMO is a clear indication of a weapon that goes beyond being a mere hammer. Didn't do him much good in the end, but there's definitely something there.

[Mehrunes]

Sylvanas went from losing a fight against old man Genn Greymane to uber goddess of death that can go toe to toe with the Lich King within the span of one expansion and to make things worse all of that """character development""" happened off-screen with absolutely no indication that she did anything to gain some sort of power-up.

It's incredibly lazy storytelling and a complete asspull in terms of lore.

Except Genn didn't win the fight. He achieved his hidden objective but that's all. Other than that he got poisoned by Sylvanas' arrow, dropped unconscious and had to be hauled out by other Alliance members. The only reason he's still alive is because Sylvanas suffered from plot-induced amnesia, even though on every other occasion when something important to her doesn't go her way Blizzard portrays her as incapable of controlling her emotions in that case and lashing out at everything around her.

[PuppetShowJustice]

Except Genn didn't win the fight. He achieved his hidden objective but that's all.

You're super downplaying the "I took your future away." Sylvanas got played hard by Genn.

[Syegfryed]

But this time it makes complete sense except for the lich king widows on this thread, sylvannas didnt beat the lich king, she probably wouldnt, she beat a corpse with a crown, whats the hard part about that? please elighten me.

it don't make sense, not a little sense, Sylvanas humiliated the current Lich king, he is not just a corpse with a crown he had the power of the helm, you can see his power in the cinematic

She was just obnoxiously too strong, like i said, there is no problem with her wining, but a fucking fight he deserved, at least land a single hit or make her run for the money, she had literally no problem, and got more trouble and a scratch from an old lame dying orc.

[Mirishka]

Honestly I don't think anyone will care by the time the expansion hits and Bolvar will be forgotten again like always. Just seems like an excuse to rage about Sylvanas while ignoring the story that explain why this happened (or the company that has done this sort of things to many characters throughout its history).

The LK wasn't strong enough to defeat cosmic forces, always hinted to be controlled by them whether he was aware of it or not. And Bolvar is even weaker, while the rest of the world has evolved to higher levels and new magic. I'm pretty sure Jaina and Alleria could solo him too.

God, even Anduin with his insane light shields. Turalyon? Illidan? Tyrande? Malfurion? A lot of lore characters have abilities, feats, or experience that could give them the upperhand.

I think that Tyrande with the night warrior stuff would be a good match for her. Especially with both of them being agile archer types, could be a very fun fight.

[Nerovar]

Except Genn didn't win the fight. He achieved his hidden objective but that's all. Other than that he got poisoned by Sylvanas' arrow, dropped unconscious and had to be hauled out by other Alliance members. The only reason he's still alive is because Sylvanas suffered from plot-induced amnesia, even though on every other occasion when something important to her doesn't go her way Blizzard portrays her as incapable of controlling her emotions in that case and lashing out at everything around her.

Yeah, he "won" the fight in the sense that he outmaneuvered her and accomplished his goal. She got nothing out of it. That's why she lost.

I think that Tyrande with the night warrior stuff would be a good match for her. Especially with both of them being agile archer types, could be a very fun fight.

Tyrande couldn't even defeat Nathanos without the help of Malfurion.

[Mehrunes]

You're super downplaying the "I took your future away." Sylvanas got played hard by Genn.

That's, you know, the hidden objective he achieved. Words, how do they work?

Unless you want to pretend that Genn's poisoned and unconscious ass was the winner of the combat itself.

Yeah, he "won" the fight in the sense that he outmaneuvered her and accomplished his goal. She got nothing out of it. That's why she lost.

Yeah, but that's not particularly relevant to his combat prowess or an indication that Sylvanas shouldn't have won against the Lich King. If the lantern simply slipped off Sylvanas' belt buckle in that fight and crashed on its own, would you go around saying that gravity won a fight against Sylvanas and that's the reason she shouldn't be able to win against X character?

[Villager720]

As I said in another thread:
We know Sylvanas has been making deals with death entities since at least Legion. We know she started the Fourth War to get people killed, and Ion confirmed that all of those deaths have been empowering her.

What's more, who's to say Bolvar was that strong?
He had no death magic experience beforehand and was kinda just "a paladin" (didn't even get a statue in the Sanctum of Light). Then there is the potential that being a charred husk (via life magic) might not make you a more nimble or more powerful Lich King. The chances of him being level with Arthas & Frostmourne seem quite slim.

So let's examine this again then with all the proper context:
1. We know Sylvanas was powerful enough to fight one on one with Arthas in the Halls of Reflection (yes, she lost, but she held her own while we wiped to Marwyn's trash several times)
2. Since then she has been gaining power from multiple sources including the deaths of a world war she started
3. Bolvar doesn't have the necromatic experience (never a death knight), bodily constitution (crispy husk), or weaponry (Frostmourne) of Arthas.
4. Bolvar loses handily.
5. ...People are surprised?

[Syegfryed]

What's more, who's to say Bolvar was that strong?

the lore, and the very cnematic?

He had no death magic experience beforehand and was kinda just "a paladin"

summon DK and empower us in the class hall

he is not hot shit

people are mroe mad that he lost like a mog run than that he indeed lost, is that hard to understand?

[Rozz]

I think that Tyrande with the night warrior stuff would be a good match for her. Especially with both of them being agile archer types, could be a very fun fight.

Certainly. I would like to see that fight, but it's such a good idea that it'll likely never happen or be off-screen.

[Voidwielder]

This make it sound like that any story that promotes speculation and discussion is bad story telling...

''Mystery box'' or ''who dunnit?!'' speculation is good.

This isn't that.

[Nerovar]

Yeah, but that's not particularly relevant to his combat prowess or an indication that Sylvanas shouldn't have won against the Lich King. If the lantern simply slipped off Sylvanas' belt buckle in that fight and crashed on its own, would you go around saying that gravity won a fight against Sylvanas and that's the reason she shouldn't be able to win against X character?

That's pretty disingenous. I was hinting at the fact that while Genn wasn't trying to kill her, he still had the upper hand and outwitted her. It was an even fight and chances are he would have killed her if he didn't specifically aim for the lantern (at least that's what I gathered from him beating her up). But that's really irrelevant for my argument.

The fact that the fight between her and Genn was more or less even is enough to get my original point across: it's an unbelievable, unexplained (in the game's narrative that is) power spike in a very short amount of time that allows her to go from this to absolutely manhandling Saurfang and the Lich King.

I mean, Genn at least managed to smack her. That's more than Bolvar can claim for himself.