There's no choice in Covenants - they will be min-maxed anyway

[Alvito]

People will take the one with the mathematically best skills and that's it. I don't get why Blizzard thinks this gives choice to the players. It absolutely does not. Especially with this 'you can only choose one, so choose wisely' crap. This will only make me look up a guide on what's providing the best DPS/HPS/Utility.

Am I missing something here or is this system a really dumb idea?

There is always going to be a best or worst. The hope is they are close enough or when they are much stronger it is a rare situtional thing so you do have more of a choice even if you are min/maxing. There is almost certainly going to be a route that is best for each spec, the question will be how good are certain ones for an entire class or in different settings. Some of the non combat abilities really open the doors for things for various groups. From the deep dive seeing things like the short window ramping up dmg buff all I could think about was how much more bursty specs like fire in their combustion window would be. There are a lot of moving parts here which does give them a good shot at having something close to equal balance across the board, it also gives them multiple opportunities to fail. What I am most concerned about is what they do as they start to nerf/buff abilities. Would they do something like a talent tree reset after a major patch or do people just have to deal with regrinding as their covenent, spec or class were majorly altered.

[Dellinth]

If you’re a min/maxer you’ve kind of signed yourself up for this you have no choices ever in any system this game has to offer. I’m picking the covenant that fits my head cannon for my given character or the one with the rewards I enjoy because that’s how it’s meant to be played and I guarantee I’ll still be able to complete 90% of the content in the game like I’ve always done. heroic raids and mythic+ up to 10 don’t require min maxing they just require you have basic knowledge of the encounters and how to play your character.

[D3athsting]

Blizzard simply need to remove dps meters and combat logging. That will sort out a lot of shit with min-maxing. Chose what you want, not what will give you a miniscule dps improvement

Blizz needs to remove ALL combat add-ons leaving only ones for qol and releasing a bit easier content, we all know raids are balanced around dbm WA bigwigs and so on...

[Alvito]

Watch the interview with Preach, Ion explains a bit more how it works.

The deep dive today do a much better job going into it than some of Ions quick answers into things in that. Of course if you have time and the desire watch both.

[Kohtra]

Ya everything will be min/maxxed.

I still want it put it anyway. Do you want nothing new added at all?

[Namalia]

Min/Maxers have ruined the MMORPG.

[Alvito]

playing for fun is an alien concept to min maxers...there is no use

It doesn't have to be a choice of one or the other. If things are done well you can have your cake and eat it too. You can easily just dump it back on poor game design when unfun options are not only in the game but the more dominate thing.

[mvaliz]

People will take the one with the mathematically best skills and that's it. I don't get why Blizzard thinks this gives choice to the players. It absolutely does not. Especially with this 'you can only choose one, so choose wisely' crap. This will only make me look up a guide on what's providing the best DPS/HPS/Utility.

Am I missing something here or is this system a really dumb idea?

I'm reminded of when a guy I knew back in Cata who was wondering why I was still a human engineer and not a Worgen Skinner since I was a Rogue, and CLEARLY Skinning and Worgen were best at being Rogues...

I also remember another guy in LFD who got mad at our priest healer who was skinning some Nerubians we killed in Ajol'nerub, and he responded "Fucking Clothie!"

Couple of us asked what he meant, and he went on a rager about how skinning is worthless for a cloth wearer, and leather is also useless.

I was like "maybe he likes doing it and selling it? Or has an alt who uses the leather???" o_O

[Alvito]

Min/Maxers have ruined the MMORPG.

Bad news min maxing is a fundamental part of RPGs and have been from the first day they came to be. Wanting your character to be the strongest it can be shouldn't be a bad thing or frowned upon by other players.

[StillMcfuu]

It's impossible to create 2 different skills and not have one be better at certain points. If 1 covenant had an ability that caused 5000 dmg and another covenant had an ability that caused 2500 dmg and another 2500 dmg over 1 second, there would still be an ability that excels in one situation or another.

[MORGATH99]

the option is what covenants you choose

[Asrialol]

You're not, it's exactly as stupid a system as you think.

They've admitted you can switch covenants, but it's a commitment to do so. In other words, if you flex between roles at all and your best is on one covenant for DPS but it's your worst for your heal spec or vice versa, you're going to either accept being the best at one but worst at the other or pick a third covenant with two mediocre specs.

A horrible system, but about what I expect for Blizzard these days. They're so blind to actual player behavior.

So you're saying specs are balanced in 9.0 with them choosing the best Covenant in mind?

[mvaliz]

But what does it matter what 1% of the population do?

Dude, this isn't some Wall-street thing. It's hardly 1%. It ain't no minority out there :P

And it matters cus doing things while often being prejudiced by elitists really sucks. That's why Elitists have the reputation they do.

While I'm with you with what you're saying, I can't tell you how many times I get some guy randomly messaging me with a gear suggestion, and I respond that it helps me do XYZ in the world. I get a "You'll never get in a good guild that way". I respond with "I've been in a great guild since Vanilla, TYVM ^_^" to the instant of response of "You cannot message somebody who has you on their ignore list."

/shrug

[glowpipe]

"Blizzard simply needs to remove fun"

Forcing players to chose the talent they don't want over the ones that look really cool because its worse dps and dps is basically the metric that determines if you stay or leave most groups. Removing dps meters would increase the fun, Not removing it

[Namalia]

min maxing is a fundamental part of RPGs and have been from the first day they came to be.

Not for everyone.

Wanting your character to be the strongest it can be shouldn't be a bad thing or frowned upon by other players.

It absolutely deserves the stigma it gets. Min/maxers ruin games for everyone that doesn't want to min/max. It's a proven fact. Min/maxers believe everyone should play their way or they are terrible. It simply shows that min/maxers are terrible people and min/maxing is terrible for RPGs.

Min/maxing has existed for as long as MMOs have

- - - Updated - - -

I think this hostility towards players who simply want to be as powerful as they can be is pretty damn gross, it just stinks of envy frankly

See above.

[Venziir]

Of course there is choice! You can choose to be a min-maxer or not.

[Lochton]

*sighs*

Everyone thinks min/max, even if there was nothing. It'll always be a thing. Even so, we don't know the final answer on how they will be by the launch.

I hope for people who keep thinking like this that one ability will be great and the other shit.

[Inukashi]

Yeah, damn right

Min/Maxing my style means the only choice for my blood dk are the Vampires!

[Devilyaki]

Seems fine for a player like me, lfr isn’t that hard after all..

[Namalia]

If there was no potential for min/maxing, this game would be dead

To use your own words against you:

That's not a reply, you have literally no evidence to prove what you're saying. Sorry.