What is exactly the reward for leading a good life in Azeroth ?

[Jaggler]

There are more "realms" in the shadowlands than just the 6 we visit.

[Darknessvamp]

There is this hidden realm of pure Human Potential that awaits them. They immediately get their 72 elven wives just as that happens. My question is what is the Light's version of the Shadowlands?

[nonameelf]

All of the ones we've seen are awful.

The nature one seems fine, but it's not really an Afterlife, just a waiting room to be reborn.

[Caerule]

As others have stated, there's probably more to the Shadowlands than just these 5 areas. There's several confirmed afterlives that are missing in this picture.

It does seem that these ones are probably some of the more common ones. But there's definitely other fates. Bwonsamdi has his own realm, for one. And where do Dragon souls end up? And I'm not sure any of these destinations are the fields where Orcs and Tauren meet their ancestors.

Final note: I wonder if wisps are reincarnated Elven spirits that have passed through the Fae lands to become one with nature and be reborn. Perhaps even Dryads and Forest Lords could have once been elven spirits, reincarnated.

[zlygork]

Final note: I wonder if wisps are reincarnated Elven spirits that have passed through the Fae lands to become one with nature and be reborn. Perhaps even Dryads and Forest Lords could have once been elven spirits, reincarnated.

That would indeed make quite a bit of sense, though Cenarius is supposed to predate the Night elves if memory serves.

[Kokolums]

The dirty secret about the Tolkien universe is that Eru Iluvatar is evil. He permits unbelievable suffering on Arda. But Iluvatar offers no eternal reward. There is no evidence of anything awaiting us when the world ends. And therefore he is just allowing suffering for no reason and is evil. Morgoth is actually correct to oppose him. Notice the difference here compared to the christian God who promises eternal paradise upon death.

Given the setup of the WoW universe, I actually would assume the creator of the WoW universe is also evil because there is no offer of eternal paradise to offset the suffering.

[XorMalice]

The dirty secret about the Tolkien universe is that Eru Iluvatar is evil

That's a hot take for sure. Why do you think Iluvatar "offers no eternal reward"? In Tolkein's work, the immortal elves seem to have an undefined and shady future- they would likely face oblivion should the world end utterly, for instance, as they seem tied to it. But men (and other mortals) escape the world and there are plenty of passages that speak to them being part of some future creation and belonging to Illuvatar in some paradisical space outside of Erdu completely. Eru Iluvatar is pretty much Tolkein's take on the Christian God, so while the cool benefits of being dead aren't exactly spelled out, the clear elements of an immortal soul and a future free of suffering are implied and stated in the works.

I don't buy "Illuvatar is a demiurge".

WoW's universe, however, is a stack of powerful beings, each with their own absurd take on things- it's comic book heroes all the way down. The actual creation of the universe (as opposed to the planets, and the contents of the planets) is as of yet unaddressed- it seems a dieism-style take, but you can't rule out a demiurge who creates the universe for no purpose, or a malevolent and uncaring one. Regardless, the shadowlands lore (hot out of the oven, maybe not fully cooked) implies that there are a series of afterlives, some of them infinite, based on a beings powerlevel or actions or something.

[Kokolums]

That's a hot take for sure. Why do you think Iluvatar "offers no eternal reward"? In Tolkein's work, the immortal elves seem to have an undefined and shady future- they would likely face oblivion should the world end utterly, for instance, as they seem tied to it. But men (and other mortals) escape the world and there are plenty of passages that speak to them being part of some future creation and belonging to Illuvatar in some paradisical space outside of Erdu completely. Eru Iluvatar is pretty much Tolkein's take on the Christian God, so while the cool benefits of being dead aren't exactly spelled out, the clear elements of an immortal soul and a future free of suffering are implied and stated in the works.

I don't buy "Illuvatar is a demiurge".

There was a hot debate for centuries in the catholic church around the question: If God is good, why does he allow suffering? The answer that was arrived at is that it is ONLY ok because God offers ETERNAL paradise. Mathematically, if you are in one state for eternity, any other state technically doesn't even exist. So that's a trade you'd definitely take and God is not evil.

But as a corollary, ANY other offer that is less than ETERNAL paradise defines a god as an evil god. Iluvatar makes no clearly defined promise of eternal paradise. People have no idea what awaits them, its shrouded in mystery.

Eru Iluvatar is thus objectively evil. He offers no eternal paradise, but you needlessly suffer on Arda, suffering Iluvatar CAN prevent. Iluvatar is therefore a kid with a magnifying lens burning ants by focusing the sun on them. Morgoth is correct to oppose him.

[TheRagebear]

I’d agree but maybe in a different way. If A’dal taking Bridenbrad into the Light is something completely separate from the Shadowlands where Naaru consume the anima of the devout and assimilate the Lightforged and all into a glowing sea of pure Light and overriding hive thought where souls are batteries to fuel the “good” machine but are gently placated with visions of paradise to keep them docile (like in the Matrix) then yeah that’s just awful. Send me to Revendreth any day.

My thing is that they imply that this has been happening since long before Sylvanas attempted to kill herself, and we already have confirmation that higher beings (See: Elune and the victims of Teldrassil) can't intervene and save them from the Maw. (Except Ysera, I guess...? I mean we all know this plot was asspulled but still lol)

So are the Naaru more powerful than Elune? Did the machine of death only just break sometime between Bridenbrad's death and Sylvanas'? Or did this retcon accidentally send a character based on a Blizzard employee's brother who died of cancer to eternal torment?

[Kaichu]

You do bad shit and you end up in Hell getting nommed by vampires.

You do REAL bad shit and you end up in Super Hell in the Maw.

You want to be a turbochad forever you go to Stovokor.

You want to be a furry you just get eaten and shat out forever by faeries in Emerald Boogaloo.

You want to get the coolest mog set with fuckin angel wings you go to NOTwarrior Order Hall.

It's fucking sweet really. If you get sucked into Helya's domain you go there. If the Light binds you or some shit, you go...there. Kinda fucky that Uther didn't go to the Light. Kinda real fucky. Wonder if Darion's going to meet up with Alexandros in there. Wonder also if Tirion's with his son. That'd be a happy ending.

This might be one of the most amazing descriptions of the Shadowlands I've seen so far.

On topic though, I think you either go to Bastion or Maldraxxus depending on your principles/demeanor, unless you're subscribed to another retirement plan (e.g. Odyn's halls if you're a worthy vrykul, The Other Side if you're tied to Bwonsamdi in some way -- there was even that one serpent loa in Zul'Drak that made its own afterlife to fuck with its treacherous followers). I wonder how Orcish stuff like Oshu'gun plays into this though.

[Athredas]

Everyone who is not special gets turned into Anima. So, your life is essentially a currency.

[Tharivor]

There was a hot debate for centuries in the catholic church around the question: If God is good, why does he allow suffering? The answer that was arrived at is that it is ONLY ok because God offers ETERNAL paradise. Mathematically, if you are in one state for eternity, any other state technically doesn't even exist. So that's a trade you'd definitely take and God is not evil.

But as a corollary, ANY other offer that is less than ETERNAL paradise defines a god as an evil god. Iluvatar makes no clearly defined promise of eternal paradise. People have no idea what awaits them, its shrouded in mystery.

Eru Iluvatar is thus objectively evil. He offers no eternal paradise, but you needlessly suffer on Arda, suffering Iluvatar CAN prevent. Iluvatar is therefore a kid with a magnifying lens burning ants by focusing the sun on them. Morgoth is correct to oppose him.

At the risk of severely derailing the thread, that's still a pretty silly take. Again, it's no where implied that Illuvatar doesn't offer a paradise, and plenty implied that wherever the souls of men go it's better than the elves who remain tied to an earthly paradise in Valinor. Also nowhere in Catholic theology is it implied that for God to be good we have to know about paradise- in fact in Catholic theology God doesn't even reveal the full truth about paradise until Jesus.

I know in modern edgy culture "Illuvatar is evil" sounds cool, but nothing could be further from Tolkein's style of fantasy at all. Good and evil are very well defined in Tolkein's work, even if he portrays men as struggling to choose between them.

[Kokolums]

At the risk of severely derailing the thread, that's still a pretty silly take. Again, it's no where implied that Illuvatar doesn't offer a paradise, and plenty implied that wherever the souls of men go it's better than the elves who remain tied to an earthly paradise in Valinor. Also nowhere in Catholic theology is it implied that for God to be good we have to know about paradise- in fact in Catholic theology God doesn't even reveal the full truth about paradise until Jesus.

I know in modern edgy culture "Illuvatar is evil" sounds cool, but nothing could be further from Tolkein's style of fantasy at all. Good and evil are very well defined in Tolkein's work, even if he portrays men as struggling to choose between them.

Its pretty simple. If god doesn't CLEARLY offer eternal paradise, then he is evil because he's just into watching you suffer when you are alive.

[Tharivor]

Its pretty simple. If god doesn't CLEARLY offer eternal paradise, then he is evil because he's just into watching you suffer when you are alive.

Perhaps in your view, but not in the Catholic tradition within which Tolkein was writing. You're imposing somthing on the work the author very obviously never intended.

[scubi666stacy]

Leading a good life is it's own reward. BAM. PHILOSOPHIED.

And it even improves the lives of people around you. How crazy!

[How dare you]

Being a worthy, a just….

The theology seems a bit dreary.

For bad souls, the Maw.

For not so bad souls, Revendreath

For everyone else, what ? Be used as fertilizer for the spirits of nature ? (Ardenweald ?) Being turned into a robotic undead (Madraxxus ?) Be turned into a robotic angel ? (Bastion)

Maybe the Arbiter isn't a good entity?

[How dare you]

The reward is Bastion.

And in Bastion you do what? Rest on a cloud?

[Arrashi]

In the Light, we are one. That implies a loss of individuality.

Do normal people even go to light? I thought it was only the ones who were devoured by naaru like that crusader in icecrown, and ones who signed deal with devil.

Not to mention that majority of light oriented guys lack individuality even in life. Just look at all those generic cardboard cutout paladins.

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

If the anima hints at something, I'd dare say.
Spirits very low on anima go make some new scourge freaks.
Good spirits low on anima would fuel nature things?
Evil spirits that have somewhat anima and can be redeemed, vampire torture chambers it is.
Good spirits to Bastion.
Incredibly bad guys, Maw.


Although I'm not really sure I got this anima thing right.

[Sondrelk]

Given the Shadowlands is supposedly infinite my guess is there are a theoretically infinite amount of not bad/not great afterlives where the souls spend their time doing pretty much the same thing they did in life.

We simply limit ourselves to Heaven, Hippie heaven, !not-hell, hell and superhell.