There's no choice in Covenants - they will be min-maxed anyway

[Gaidax]

Yes, because he makes a good point. Not everyone saw that interview.

It's really easy to have a "dead talent" in many scenarios. But as you will see, classes are fairly well represented around the raiding scene. The premise of this thread is how covenants aren't a choice, because everyone will be forced to pick one due to mathematics and social pressure. That doesn't happen with classes, and if they design covenants the way they are currently suggesting, it won't happen with covenants either. It's a lot more complex than any individual talent or power.

I don’t think it’s that simple there.

Class choice is a much more substantial and core gameplay choice, where as choosing covenant is effectively just choosing 2 active abilities and some additional layer of talents via Soulbind. On top of that choosing a class main is serious commitment, where as covenant you will be able to drop and change, even with this cost they mention.

If I have a decked max level main I play for years because of class fantasy or simply because I like its gameplay, I won’t go ahead and reroll it a whim, because it’s a massive grinding headache and a huge change and if in patch X warlocks are shit, then many will tough it out because rerolling is a big investement. Covenants? IMO the costs are not quite that steep to prevent minmaxing, people will most certainly go for optimal choices.

I only hope there will be more than 1 optimal choice there, although I am sort of skeptical seeing some Kyrian abilities given - for some classes/specs these abilities are like OOooOoooOoOOOOOoo, but some other abilities look like utter shit. For example Kyrian ability for DK is complete dogshit for any DPS DK, while Mage one looks insane.

[valky94]

People will take the one with the mathematically best skills and that's it. I don't get why Blizzard thinks this gives choice to the players. It absolutely does not. Especially with this 'you can only choose one, so choose wisely' crap. This will only make me look up a guide on what's providing the best DPS/HPS/Utility.

Am I missing something here or is this system a really dumb idea?

idc bout min maxing ill pick the necrolords (unless the ability is something i dont like from a gameplay standpoint)

[Xath]

Or they'll take the one with the aesthetic that appeals to them the most. I know that's all that matters to me.

Same goes for talents, class customization, soulbinds... pretty much everything involving player agency

Unfortunately looking at those abilities it's unlikely, you will be massively gimping yourself if you do that. Should have just been a secondary talent tree instead of tying it to factions with cosmetics.

[Relapses]

I only hope there will be more than 1 optimal choice there, although I am sort of skeptical seeing some Kyrian abilities given - for some classes/specs these abilities are like OOooOoooOoOOOOOoo, but some other abilities look like utter shit. For example Kyrian ability for DK is complete dogshit for any DPS DK, while Mage one looks insane.

I think you've perfectly described Blizzard's exact intention with designing the Covenant abilities. Some will be dogshit, some will be cool. Most players will not pick a Covenant because of the ability, however. As a poster someodd pages back mentioned, they'll pick a Covenant because it's got those sweet fucking Owl people.

[Flurryfang]

Ofcourse, that is how it just will be and i think Blizzard knows it, but just won't say it.

Like, from what i can read from some the abilities, some of them are even PVP focused, only working on characters, that move or cast spells, stuff that PVP spells does.

The covenants just seems bad, like a patch feature instead of an Expansion focus.

[Kohtra]

Min/Maxxers need to learn not everyone plays like them. Saying there is no choice for Covenants is wrong. You choose to Min/Max.

[JohnyCge]

Well, i guess it's happening 100%. Judging from blizzcon beta we can see first example of it - elemental shamans with kyrian totem( 20% mastery on use). Why? Because it's on use "trinket" that will be extremely valuable in burst phases (Both for mobs/bosses). Same thing that keep orcs and trolls popular by high end raiders. The only way to balance this mess is to give other abilities borderline stupid damage or give the same thing with a different flavor, like you gain 100% mast decreasing every sec by 10 or so. Just my opinion ofc.

[Kneckt95]

Idk why people like to complain not having all of the info or even have touched gameplay with one. Stop getting pre-triggered.

[Gaidax]

I think you've perfectly described Blizzard's exact intention with designing the Covenant abilities. Some will be dogshit, some will be cool. Most players will not pick a Covenant because of the ability, however. As a poster someodd pages back mentioned, they'll pick a Covenant because it's got those sweet fucking Owl people.

That is true, but I think overall this ability power discrepancy is a valid concern.

I mean, here's the revealed abilities for mages for all covenants and if you ask me - mages will really have to love Venthyr to pick that as their covenant, seeing that ability is pretty much outright useless in everything besides PvP and Contagion Bolt is close second there being basically AoE spell of limited use, where as Shifting Power looks ok choice and Radiant Spark outright bonkers for Fire or Arcane.

So as it looks - Mages literally give up on Venthyr right there at various skill levels and probably Necrolords too, so yeah...




And no, I don't think all is doom and gloom, but it is overall a super super valid concern for Ion's team right there and I find it strange that despite them saying they will try to have many knobs and all they start with such a huge power difference at the base already.

[huth]

One is the army of the dead, and the other vampire lords basically

Hard to call them good guys

One is the actual, literal army of the dead, the same way the US Army is the army of the US or the Bundeswehr is the army of the BRD.

The other is a group of "vampires" whose job it is to handle sinful souls and redeem them.

Does that really sound evil to you?

Let's not forget that evil doesn't mean "not good".

[Relapses]

That is true, but I think overall this ability power discrepancy is a valid concern.

I mean, here's the revealed abilities for mages for all covenants and if you ask me - mages will really have to love Venthyr to pick that as their covenant, seeing that ability is pretty much outright useless in everything besides PvP and Contagion Bolt is close second there being basically AoE spell of limited use, where as Shifting Power looks ok choice and Radiant Spark outright bonkers for Fire or Arcane.

So as it looks - Mages literally give up on Venthyr right there at various skill levels and probably Necrolords too, so yeah...

Right - I think Blizzard understands that some players will make informed decisions about their chosen Covenant but their goal, to me, seems like they want to make it so none of the competing Covenant abilities are so universally more powerful than one another that you would go an entire expansion feeling like you dun goofed.

[Melchior]

That is true, but I think overall this ability power discrepancy is a valid concern.

I mean, here's the revealed abilities for mages for all covenants and if you ask me - mages will really have to love Venthyr to pick that as their covenant, seeing that ability is pretty much outright useless in everything besides PvP and Contagion Bolt is close second there being basically AoE spell of limited use, where as Shifting Power looks ok choice and Radiant Spark outright bonkers for Fire or Arcane.

So as it looks - Mages literally give up on Venthyr right there at various skill levels and probably Necrolords too, so yeah...

Except, there will be many other aspects to the covenants, like soulbinds. A certain combination of Venthyr options might end up simming close to Kyrian for mage after everything is taken into account.

Any numbers and such is of course subject to change as well.

We will just have to wait and see. The more clear the gap, the less choice most people will feel they have. Having these choices isn't bad in and of itself, it's how Blizzard manages them that counts.

[Gaidax]

Except, there will be many other aspects to the covenants, like soulbinds. A certain combination of Venthyr options might end up simming close to Kyrian for mage after everything is taken into account.

Any numbers and such is of course subject to change as well.

We will just have to wait and see. The more clear the gap, the less choice most people will feel they have. Having these choices isn't bad in and of itself, it's how Blizzard manages them that counts.

It might... but it might not.

I mean when you see Radiant Spark vs Mirrors of Torment for PvE content... then really the 3 available Venthyr soulbinds would have to be vastly superior to the 3 available Kyrian soulbinds across the board and I just don't see that being the case.

Heck, Mirrors of Torment is effectively like having no ability in PvE as far as mechanics concerned. So I mean, even if above is the case and Venthyr soulbinds across the board beat the living shit out of Kyrian ones, how fun is that - effectively not having an ability for vast majority of content?


Same goes to lesser extent with Shifting Power vs Contagion Bolt, where Shifting Power is easily superior in almost every way. It even has half the CD on top of the haste buff and better AoE damage.

[Lurker1]

People will take the one with the mathematically best skills and that's it. I don't get why Blizzard thinks this gives choice to the players. It absolutely does not. Especially with this 'you can only choose one, so choose wisely' crap. This will only make me look up a guide on what's providing the best DPS/HPS/Utility.

Am I missing something here or is this system a really dumb idea?

Nope i will choose whatever the hell i feel like period.and to avoid morons i will make my own raids and groups period i win gg!

[Woobels]

That is true, but I think overall this ability power discrepancy is a valid concern.

I mean, here's the revealed abilities for mages for all covenants and if you ask me - mages will really have to love Venthyr to pick that as their covenant, seeing that ability is pretty much outright useless in everything besides PvP and Contagion Bolt is close second there being basically AoE spell of limited use, where as Shifting Power looks ok choice and Radiant Spark outright bonkers for Fire or Arcane.

So as it looks - Mages literally give up on Venthyr right there at various skill levels and probably Necrolords too, so yeah...




And no, I don't think all is doom and gloom, but it is overall a super super valid concern for Ion's team right there and I find it strange that despite them saying they will try to have many knobs and all they start with such a huge power difference at the base already.

None of these numbers or abilities are even close to final.

[huth]

That is true, but I think overall this ability power discrepancy is a valid concern.

I mean, here's the revealed abilities for mages for all covenants and if you ask me - mages will really have to love Venthyr to pick that as their covenant, seeing that ability is pretty much outright useless in everything besides PvP and Contagion Bolt is close second there being basically AoE spell of limited use, where as Shifting Power looks ok choice and Radiant Spark outright bonkers for Fire or Arcane.

So as it looks - Mages literally give up on Venthyr right there at various skill levels and probably Necrolords too, so yeah...

I wouldn't call it useless. Plenty of mobs use abilities, and they generally don't pay attention to their debuffs while doing so. Find something with frequent and predictable ability use, and Mirrors could easily outdo the other three.

Meanwhile, Shifting Power is a 3s channel for 15% haste if you can't go in close range of a target, which isn't so uncommon in raids. That isn't even enough to make up for the channel time. It's a net loss if you can't hit anything with it.

[Gaidax]

None of these numbers or abilities are even close to final.

Except Mirrors of Torment does not even have any numbers if things are not casting or using abilities and many mobs and bosses don't spam their shit. I mean... It's vastly inferior mechanically in PvE, even before numbers talk.

- - - Updated - - -

I wouldn't call it useless. Plenty of mobs use abilities, and they generally don't pay attention to their debuffs while doing so. Find something with frequent and predictable ability use, and Mirrors could easily outdo the other three.

Meanwhile, Shifting Power is a 3s channel for 15% haste if you can't go in close range of a target, which isn't so uncommon in raids. That isn't even enough to make up for the channel time. It's a net loss if you can't hit anything with it.

Sorry, but it IS in fact useless. You spend 2 seconds casting something that might do 0 damage AND it has 2 min CD?

That vs Radiant Spark where every 30 seconds you have 4 spells doing +25%, +50%, 75% and finally double damage respectively? I mean, it even has damage component as well equal to one cast penalty of mirrors, except damage is guaranteed.

It's like not even close.

[Outofmana]

Covenant abilities...another shit idea. "Oh for Mythic+ I need x ability, but for raid I need x covenant ability, oh pvp I need z ability. Annoying bloat like essences yet again

[ONCHEhap]

But can you blame them for that? Is that not the players' fault rather than Blizzard's?

[munkeyinorbit]

I'm going to watch all the YouTubes and read all the guides then I will pick the one I think is coolest. When it comes to minmaxing and the like I generally look at the "basic talents that dont make you trash" and gone there. I have been to the pinnacle of raiding and I have played LFR exclusively and I have found that I play better when I am having fun. So, I will pick the one that is fun.