Death Broken - when did it actually happen?

[Netherspark]

The earliest it could have happened is during Wrath of the Lich King, as we know people who died before then ended up in their appropriate places.

And the most likely cause is someone or something very powerful entering the Maw and turning it into a kind of black hole. Given Sylvanas' involvement I would guess it has something to do with Arthas and/or Ner'zhul.

Remember AU Ner'zhul's last line when he died in WoD (and in the Shadowlands no less) - "My power will ripple across eternity".

I'm thinking that when Arthas died Ner'zhul piggy-backed on his soul and entered the shadowlands with him. I can even see Blizzard retconning this into being his plan all along.

[Hipnos14]

I imagine that everything started with the death of Argus, only the most dangerous souls for the Shadowlands (I imagine souls that have knowledge about the nature of death) go to the Maw, well, a crazy titan of death would probably go directly into the maw, and a freaking titan must have a ton of Anima.

The other thing is that if Vol'jin's spirit was able to return from the shadowlands thanks to some entity that helped him (I imagine it was the Arbiter) Death couldn't be broken when he died, or else his spirit would have gone directly into the Maw, so Death broke at some point during Legion.

[Venziir]

The popular theory right now, seems that "Death" broke when we killed Argus.

[A Chozo]

If i were to guess. Id say some major event mustve made ripples big enought to affect the other side in a big way.

I don't know, dude. WoW's universe has some pretty damn epic cosmic powers terrorizing the universe - especially the Burning Legion. Azeroth could face four more faction wars, and it wouldn't be equal the death and destruction caused by the Burning Legion invading a world.

And oddly enough, they killed left and right yet apparently gave zero fucks about this Jailer guy who's strong enough to buff Sylvanas into godmode.

[Foolicious]

That in turn would bring into question why the spirit healers would willingly carry souls into the maw when it's clear that this is not supposed to happen, as otherwise they wouldn't get there. I guess they will handwave that with the dark valkyrs we've seen in the ingame trailer and the cutscene in bastion, even though they were never before seen or heard of.

Spirit healers are(or where until now) val'kyr that didn't join helya after she imprisoned odyn. They stayed in the shadowlands and guided lost souls back into the land of the living, not the other way around. Thats what val'kyr where made for originally, so that made sense.
But now they apparently are part of the kyrian, so who knows.

[huth]

Spirit healers are(or where until now) val'kyr that didn't join helya after she imprisoned odyn. They stayed in the shadowlands and guided lost souls back into the land of the living, not the other way around. Thats what val'kyr where made for originally, so that made sense.
But now they apparently are part of the kyrian, so who knows.

They could just be both. They couldn't get to Odyn, didn't want to go with Helya, so they ended up lost for a while until they encountered the Kyrian, and decided to join up forces with them.

[Hastis]

I think sometime during the beginning of Legion. They said Sylvanas and the Jailer entered into a partnership sometime after the Edge of Night, right? They also said souls have been directly going into the Maw and giving the Jailer as well as Sylvanas more power.

Now maybe it's an issue of:

-- Sylvanas dies @ Edge of Night -->
-- meets the Jailer, becomes aware of him -->
-- Cata, MoP and WoD happen -->
-- Jailer reaches back out to Sylvanas like, "Remember me? Let's make a deal." -->
--offers her power in exchange for help -->
-- Sylvanas says yes -->
-- now she will gain power as well as the Jailer from that point forward when somebody dies on Azeroth -->
-- Legion invasion happens -->
-- Vol'jin stabbed at the Broken Shore, Jailer whispers Sylvanas' name -->
-- etc

It would make sense that the Jailer made his presence known to Sylvanas before they actually became partners. It would also make sense that the Jailer persuading Vol'jin to make Sylvanas warchief was like the sweetener to the deal to persuade Sylvanas to actually partner with him.

Nooo this is a new idea
it would be so shitty. They scrapped Bfa like they did with WoD so dont expect to have good story here.
Sylvanas didnt expect to be choosen as warchief. Something beetween legion and bfa must happend

[Netherspark]

I don't think it has anything to do with Argus for several reasons. Argus is called the "death titan" but doesn't really have any real connection with death itself. It's just his defining aspect like magic is Norgannon's aspect. When Norgannon died magic didn't 'break', so why would death break when Argus dies?

I also don't believe Titans go to the Shadowlands, as we've already seen Titans dying and their spirits hanging around. Even if you ignore the Titan spirits captured by Sargeras, Eonar did not go to the Shadowlands when she died, she instead travelled entirely by her own volition to Elunaria. And Aggramar's spirit didn't seem to go anywhere either when players killed him, plus when released the Titans were all on hand to reform themselves.

[Beefhammer]

That in turn would bring into question why the spirit healers would willingly carry souls into the maw when it's clear that this is not supposed to happen, as otherwise they wouldn't get there. I guess they will handwave that with the dark valkyrs we've seen in the ingame trailer and the cutscene in bastion, even though they were never before seen or heard of.

Maybe they don't bring them just allow them to pass over.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I don't think it has anything to do with Argus for several reasons. Argus is called the "death titan" but doesn't really have any real connection with death itself. It's just his defining aspect like magic is Norgannon's aspect. When Norgannon died magic didn't 'break', so why would death break when Argus dies?

But they didn't die. Their avatars were shattered, which happened to most titans. Sageras among them. Argus was actually killed and we used the remnants of his soul to power the pantheon's vaccuum cleaner.

[formerShandalay]

Would be interesting if that is the case, but I doubt those guys are Sha. More like Maw minions.

I agree, those are Maw minions, my thought was more that Yshaarj dying corrupted the Maw itself and things went downhill from there. But it has only begun being really apparent now that the problem is already huge.



Edit:

For me the issue is, I don't see why Sylvanas ended up in the Maw in Edge of Night. Even if she was the reason for the Wrathgate incident, that's still about the same level of evil as TBC Kael'thas. Either something happened that bound Sylvanas' soul to the Maw (the taint of necromancy?) OR whatever broke Death has been broken since back then.

I think the problem was, she was judged and she basically said fuck you and killed herself anyway. Remember that even one of the Val'kyr was upset at her indifference and inaction towards what they showed her? Sylvanas even thought to herself that she was being judged. I think that was the point she went into the Maw instead of Revendreth (to be redeemed).
And maybe the Maw was already a little more probable than it should have been, because it already was drawing more souls than were actually deserving of it. Maybe not 'all' souls, but just once in a while one mighty soul that should have really gone somewhere else went to the Maw and it fed itself really slowly. That would fit right in with my theory above

[Beefhammer]

I agree, those are Maw minions, my thought was more that Yshaarj dying corrupted the Maw itself and things went downhill from there. But it has only begun being really apparent now that the problem is already huge.

That makes some sense.

[Varitok]

Sylvanas is one of the worst characters in Warcraft. Should have kept her dead in Wrath, I really hate that she's pulling a Gul'dan and sticking around for two expacs as the main lead.

[Lei]

I imagine that everything started with the death of Argus, only the most dangerous souls for the Shadowlands (I imagine souls that have knowledge about the nature of death) go to the Maw, well, a crazy titan of death would probably go directly into the maw, and a freaking titan must have a ton of Anima.

The other thing is that if Vol'jin's spirit was able to return from the shadowlands thanks to some entity that helped him (I imagine it was the Arbiter) Death couldn't be broken when he died, or else his spirit would have gone directly into the Maw, so Death broke at some point during Legion.

Do otherworldly (non Azerothians) creatures go to the Shadowlands? I mean Argus died on.. Argus didn't he.

[FlemmMinis]

I'm confused tbh. What do you mean with "Death Broken"?

[mrsohta]

I would vote on either the death of Argus or shattering of Frostmourne

Edit: @Laubman he's talking about the Maw. It's where the evil guys went to before death was broken, now every soul goes there regardless and that's why the zone got much bigger from sucking in the souls from our war

[Cosmic Janitor]

Do otherworldly (non Azerothians) creatures go to the Shadowlands? I mean Argus died on.. Argus didn't he.

Ion stated the shadowlands span all worlds or something like that some of npcs in the demo mentioned apparently that they come from other worlds and would like to see the rest of them, even azeroth.

[Lei]

Ion stated the shadowlands spawn all worlds or something like that some of npcs in the demo mentioned apparently that they come from other worlds and would like to see the rest of them, even azeroth.

Hah! I must have missed that. Well then, Shadowlands ought to be a really fucked up place then whether they have argus or not.

[FlemmMinis]

I would vote on either the death of Argus or shattering of Frostmourne

Edit: @Laubman he's talking about the Maw. It's where the evil guys went to before death was broken, now every soul goes there regardless and that's why the zone got much bigger from sucking in the souls from our war

Thank you!

Well I would guess the exact moment death "broke" is hard to pinpoint. Maybe it's with Argus, maybe frostmourne. I would guess it started much earlier. Like around the third war when entyties from the shadowlands first fully crossed the veil.

[Echocho]

It broke due to all the turtles that didn't make it to the water.