Are they ever gonna fix all the messed up timelines?

[huth]

Why dont they just remove NPCs once they die? I mean we literally just watched Slyvanas shit on the Horde and vanish and Saurfang die so why are they both still inside Orgrimmar?

Yes, let's just remove quest relevant NPCs. I'm sure that won't cause any issues whatsoever.

[GreenJesus]

Why dont they just remove NPCs once they die? I mean we literally just watched Slyvanas shit on the Horde and vanish and Saurfang die so why are they both still inside Orgrimmar?

Are you saying instead of Garrosh kicking the korkron off stonetalon we should have... uh... whos warchief now? Right let's have the entire council kick the guy off together

[huth]

Are you saying instead of Garrosh kicking the korkron off stonetalon we should have... uh... whos warchief now? Right let's have the entire council kick the guy off together

Nah, let's have the council kick him off individually. So he gets dragged back up the mountain 5 times only to get thrown down again.

[Alvito]

Why dont they just remove NPCs once they die? I mean we literally just watched Slyvanas shit on the Horde and vanish and Saurfang die so why are they both still inside Orgrimmar?

Different players are at different points of the story. If they instantly altered the game as soon as a change happened as you are asking for even people starting a new feature the day it launched would have some odd RP shuffle. Imagine you are alliance doing the broken shore invasion. Varrian sends people there, but also does there so under your thinking you end up with this schrodinger's cat scenario where he needs to be alive to send us off, but due to that patch is dead.

[Powerogue]

Hopefully something they do a better job explaining.

TL;DR:

wotlk: Garrosh works with Saurfang to lead the offensive against the Lich King. Everything here and before, Thrall is warchief.
Cata: Garrosh promoted to Warchief
MOP: Garrosh tries to use sha power to empower the Horde, doesn't go well, booted from Warchief position, Vol'jin takes over.
WOD: Garrosh brings the pre-corruption Horde through time to kill us using bronze dragon magic. Thrall kills him.
Legion: Vol'jin Dies, Sylvanas is the new warchief.
BFA: Sylvanas leads bloody, dishonorable faction war. Saurfang leads Horde and Alliance forces against her. She abandons the Horde, now nobody is the warchief.

Yes, let's just remove quest relevant NPCs. I'm sure that won't cause any issues whatsoever.

That's the main problem, phasing. It's why you occasionally have canon-breaking quests instead where instead of talking to Varian in stormwind you talk to Anduin in Stormwind even though he wasn't king yet in that expansion. Pick your poison. What's less confusing? At the very least, they'll be up front about it, straight up saying "everything before this point is you doing time travel."

[arsomartinera]

I would love it if they did this. It is rather strange to have Garrosh dead and then resurrect himself in Stonetalon (just did this a few days ago, it is in fact still Garrosh who kicks the General off the mountain), and have his war in Ashenvale yet be directed to Overlord Saurfang instead for quests.

DafontShowboxAdam4adam

[Ophenia]

I've always loved how one of the first quests involving Sylvanas in Silverpine (I think) starts with "Now that the Lich King is dead...". A new player probably enjoys the storyline of World of Warcraft when everything is messed up like that

That line is even more fucked up after Shadowlands cinematic I guess

[tmamass]

Chromie will turn everything you see around you to match an expansion's storyline, so if you want to play through WotLK, Thrall will be in the Warchief hall. If you want to play MoP storyline to level up, Garrosh will be there.

which is a level revamp but NO world revamp which was claimed to happen (and in fact isnt)

[Xasrai]

which is a level revamp but NO world revamp which was claimed to happen (and in fact isnt)

It is being revamped. The new official timeline for a character starting wow will be this: the new combined starting zone for levels 1-10, followed by BFA's events for 10-50, and ending with Shadowlands for 50-60.

Anyone who chooses to use chromie to go back to previous expansions for leveling will be clearly reminded that canonically, those events are set in the past.

[Magicon]

I watched blizzcon... They said they Will fix this one way or another.

[TragedyAnn]

Did you even watch Blizzcon? They are doing exactly this.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhh... They're not so much "fixing" it as they are band-aiding it in an attempt to make the owie go away. They're adding a new leveling flow that more easily allows us to ignore the inconsistencies, but they're not actually REMOVING the inconsistencies. Or even the old leveling flow.

They said we'll have two leveling options from 10-50. One is to "lock in" to a prior expansion with the context that Chromie is sending you back in time to experience the events of that expansion as it happened (basically meaning your only time spent playing "present day" is 1-10 and 50-60). The other option is to level from 10-50 in the existing overworld, as you would now, in any order you please, the same way you would now. They were very clear that they're not removing the current leveling experience, just squishing it and providing a structured alternative for those who would prefer it.

If one chooses to level the "classic" way, or even just explore the overworld as it exists now at level cap, one will presumably still encounter the same disjointed stories and plot holes that exist now. All they're adding is an OPTION for something a little more structured if you'd prefer to avoid the current inconsistent flow, and see some of the old stories from start to finish in a less disjointed context.

Same goes for starting zones from level 1-10. New players will be forced into the new 1-10 experience, but veteran players on alts will still have the option to do the old starting zones - presumably w/ all the same plot inconsistencies they have now. You will still be able to do the old Goblin starting zone, and Thrall will still be the warchief on his way to handing off to Garrosh in said starting zone.

It will still be entirely possible in Shadowlands to make your first Pandaren alt, finish their old starting zone, then walk to Orgrimmar normally to meet warchief Garrosh. They haven't "fixed" that, per say.

If that annoys you however, you have the option to instead start your first Pandaren in the new starting experience, "time travel" (wink wink nudge nudge) back to Origrimmar circa MoP and meet warchief Garrosh, then later once you're level 50, "time travel" back to present day where Garrosh is no longer warchief.

They're not removing the plot holes, they're just giving them new context to smooth over their existence.

[huth]

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhh... They're not so much "fixing" it as they are band-aiding it in an attempt to make the owie go away. They're adding a new leveling flow that more easily allows us to ignore the inconsistencies, but they're not actually REMOVING the inconsistencies. Or even the old leveling flow.

What inconsistencies? The story is consistent. It's just not possible to move through it in a temporally linear manner. The new leveling scheme fixes that by simply making it unnecessary to do so.

What you're calling plotholes are not, because plotholes only exist in stories. The story moves linearly through time(save for the explicit instances of time travel) and never features the back-and-forth you see in the game necessitated by game mechanics.

It will still be entirely possible in Shadowlands to make your first Pandaren alt, finish their starting zone, then walk to Orgrimmar normally to meet warchief Garrosh. They haven't "fixed" that, per say.

If that annoys you however, you have the option to instead start your first Pandaren in the new starting experience, "time travel" (wink wink nudge nudge) back to Origrimmar circa MoP and meet warchief Garrosh, then later once you're level 50, "time travel" back to present day where Garrosh is no longer warchief.

Those are both the same thing. You're time travelling simply by doing the original Pandaren starting experience. You're just not explicitly told you're travelling through time. There is nothing here to fix, because nothing is broken.

[TragedyAnn]

It is being revamped. The new official timeline for a character starting wow will be this: the new combined starting zone for levels 1-10, followed by BFA's events for 10-50, and ending with Shadowlands for 50-60.

Anyone who chooses to use chromie to go back to previous expansions for leveling will be clearly reminded that canonically, those events are set in the past.

It isn't though. They confirmed that the world isn't being changed unless you "lock in" to the new Chromie system, which is optional for everyone but new players, and which ends at level 50. For veteran players the option to explore the old world and level in it the same way we do will still be there, and the world at level cap (or any point after level 50) will presumably still exist in the same form it does now. So if you take a boat to Northrend at any time after level 50, Dalaran, Arthas, and all the same inconsistencies that exist now will presumably be up there with no Chromie context to smooth them over.

They're not removing or overhauling the existing world or the existing leveling system in the next expansion (beyond squishing it). They're just providing a structured alternative leveling system that involves time travel context to smooth over the leveling experience. They're using that new system to "lock in" new players to the newest zones and a mostly linear narrative on their first character yes... but once that "lock in" point has passed at level 50, everyone (even new players) is presumably free to explore the world as it exists now, and discover any story lapses that exist now. Some of which will indeed be an occasional out of place Garrosh.

They're not going to drastically overhaul EVERY continent that currently exists to remove EVERY plot hole that separates EVERY zone from the context of the present day world after level 50. That would be an asininely huge undertaking... which is why they haven't done it for 15 years and still aren't doing it now.

- - - Updated - - -

What inconsistencies? The story is consistent. It's just not possible to move through it in a temporally linear manner. The new leveling scheme fixes that by simply making it unnecessary to do so.

What you're calling plotholes are not, because plotholes only exist in stories. The story moves linearly through time(save for the explicit instances of time travel) and never features the back-and-forth you see in the game necessitated by game mechanics.



Those are both the same thing. You're time travelling simply by doing the original Pandaren starting experience. You're just not explicitly told you're travelling through time. There is nothing here to fix, because nothing is broken.

You're splitting hairs for the sake of making yourself sound right here.

Sure, if you remove this video game's story from the context of being a video game it's linear and consistent (Arguably - Let's pretend WoD's story is free of inconsistencies or plot holes for the sake of argument) (*Cough* It isn't *Cough*)... Sure, when viewed through the outside context of the real world in the proper order of events, WoW has a consistent linear narrative. For the most part. So perhaps "plot hole" wasn't the best choice of words on my part in the context we're describing, but I think you understood my meaning, and to say there are "no inconsistencies" is just... poppycock.

A video game's story is primarily meant to be experienced IN SAID VIDEO GAME and yes, in that sense this game's story is absolutely inconsistent. And will remain just as inconsistent for anyone who chooses to play a character outside the new system. That's not a "fix" that's a bandaid. They have not overhauled the entire in-game world to bring it into present day context... they've just given us new tools to level outside present day context and still have it make some degree of narrative sense and not break our immersion fantasy.

Yes, plotholes exist in stories, and this game has a story, which it tells as you play it. That story of this game DOES NOT currently move linearly which creates an inconsistent presentation. New players will presumably now receive a consistent presentation up to level 50, which could then theoretically become entirely inconsistent depending how deeply they explore old content after level 50. Veteran players (especially any who started after Cataclysm) arguably already don't have a consistent presentation - And will continue not to have one after Shadowlands releases.

After level 50 there is nothing to suggest a new player won't be able to explore the world in the same sense we can currently explore it now. Veteran players who are already at level cap need not necessarily ever even see the new leveling system, and may continue to explore it in the same sense we do now. And yeah... when doing so... they're still just as liable to run into some inconsistencies after Shadowlands as they are today.

The Rogue Garroshes all over the in-game WoW World aren't going away, they're just becoming easier to ignore.

[rhorle]

How can he be in 2 places at once?

Because it is a game? They can't update everything every expansion. It is just way to much work for little pay off. You start off in the time line of the content you are completing. And you move forward from that point. So if you the player skips part of the normal progression then yes you might get confused. But that is because you skipped it for whatever reason.

Shadowlands aims to fix this by having new players start out at the same spot and have to work through BfA. Then you after that you can pick different areas with time magic.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

Too much phasing. You may have completed the questline but not everyone did.

Zero phasing.

The point is that they should have updated the game as they went. If Garrosh dies, he's dead. It doesn't matter if you didn't finish that quest he gave you the day before; dude's dead now. You'd either turn that quest in to someone else, or it'd just be deleted from your quest journal or whatever.

The "timeline issues" are of Blizzard's own creation, and they're their own damn fault for being lazy and refusing to build a properly living world, rather than just throwing shit on top of old shit and expecting suspension of disbelief to handle all the issues.

[rhorle]

The "timeline issues" are of Blizzard's own creation, and they're their own damn fault for being lazy and refusing to build a properly living world, rather than just throwing shit on top of old shit and expecting suspension of disbelief to handle all the issues.

Okay. No repeat content because you can only kill something once. Ore, herbs, mobs, are all tied to realistic amounts. No infinite supply. If a person killed all of the wolves then no more progressing on that quest.

You suspend disbelief all the time. WoW is not a living world in any shape or form. It has never been designed to be realistic. Every video game falls for it. Imagine complaining about time lines not being realistic when you can fly across a zone that is supposed to hold thousands in a few mins. Imagine believing that everyone in the game lives in the one or two houses in a zone.

Oh yeah. Nothing is realistic.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

Okay. No repeat content because you can only kill something once. Ore, herbs, mobs, are all tied to realistic amounts. No infinite supply. If a person killed all of the wolves then no more progressing on that quest.

You suspend disbelief all the time. WoW is not a living world in any shape or form. It has never been designed to be realistic. Every video game falls for it. Imagine complaining about time lines not being realistic when you can fly across a zone that is supposed to hold thousands in a few mins. Imagine believing that everyone in the game lives in the one or two houses in a zone.

Oh yeah. Nothing is realistic.

I like how people like you make up arguments, then try to counter the arguments they made up. (Hint: Show me where I said the word "realistic" even once in the previous post.)

<just shakes his head>

[Garymorilix]

Zero phasing.

The point is that they should have updated the game as they went. If Garrosh dies, he's dead. It doesn't matter if you didn't finish that quest he gave you the day before; dude's dead now. You'd either turn that quest in to someone else, or it'd just be deleted from your quest journal or whatever.

The "timeline issues" are of Blizzard's own creation, and they're their own damn fault for being lazy and refusing to build a properly living world, rather than just throwing shit on top of old shit and expecting suspension of disbelief to handle all the issues.

This is an MMO not a traditional RPG.

The game itself can't handle the vastness of the story.

As more lore was being added to the whole WoW universe it became impossible to keep a clean timeline zone-wise. This is why we go back to the same cata Uldum and Vale in 8.3, because they are important story points.

We are at a point where multiple parts of the universe reference each other. And unless all you want is a reference in some text instead of actually going to the zones, then fixing this is impossible.

Blizzard simply can't update every single expansion zone every single time a new expansion comes out. Simple as that.
The Cata update was massive and cost them a lot of end-game in a period where end-game wasn't even half as diverse as it is now.

They did the best they can: new collective start 1-10. After that you either do the build up to Shadowlands, or whatever the fuck you want. But if you do it the intended way it is chronologically intact.

[Th3Scourge]

This will never happen without a complete and total revamp of every zone in the game to current timelines. That's far to big a job for very little gain

They have taken the most logical approach and exactly the approach they should have

[rhorle]

I like how people like you make up arguments, then try to counter the arguments they made up. (Hint: Show me where I said the word "realistic" even once in the previous post.) <just shakes his head>

You called them lazy for not building a properly living world. What is a living world if not more realistic?