Flying might not be for you.

[Bodonius]

Right now, flying saves me 30 minutes a week. 10 toons opening chests 1 time a week 100 gold each. Im on classic

[Elias01]

This right here is the issue.
There are SO MANY WAYS for them to build flying into the game-world itself instead of acting like it's some "reward" to "speed up" content.
It is their seeming lack of imagination and laziness when it comes to this that causes all the issues they claim flight creates - not flight itself.

What ways. Please give as few examples. If you cant think of any than you have no right to complain.

[SirCowdog]

It didnt worked well. If it worked well Blizzard would not gate it.

Oh you sweet summer child.

Do you really think Blizzard restricted flight because of gameplay reasons? This is all about money and simplifying the open world formula to cut development costs.

[Elias01]

I think the vast majority of the playerbase would be much happier if flight was unlocked after part 1 of Pathfinder, but disabled while War Mode was toggled on. And there aren't a whole lot of compelling arguments against such a setup.

Than people would not use warmod at all. Nobady would throw away such efficient way to get fast and more rewards for some pvp.

[SirCowdog]

Yes it does becouse you cant justifi flying as gate if you can just create attument or put some teleports to get into zone and have no flying instead.

/facepalm

Your argument is that flying can't be used as a gate because teleports or other attunements can ALSO be used as gates? WTF...just stop typing.

- - - Updated - - -

Than people would not use warmod at all. Nobady would throw away such efficient way to get fast and more rewards for some pvp.

Yes, no one EVER plays PVP just for the enjoyment of PVP. Nope. Never.

I take it back. PLEASE keep typing. You make yourself and your position look worse with every new post.

[Dhrizzle]

Oh you sweet summer child.

Do you really think Blizzard restricted flight because of gameplay reasons? This is all about money and simplifying the open world formula to cut development costs.

What was the amazing depth in WotLK/Cata/MoP daily quests that was lost when they took away flying? Apexis zones are arguably more complex due to them having different mechanics and encouraging players to experiment with the quickest way to fill the bar. Legion and BfA's World Quests are practically identical to dailies without the need to pick-up or hand in. I find them more enjoyable now as I need to consider how I approach them instead of just hopping around on a flying mount but there isn't a massive fundamental difference.

[Sangfoudre]

I found some underwater Tortollan wedding with flying that I never would have seen if I didn't have it.

And yet it was available since day 1. Exploration is imho more fun before flying is available. Don't misunderstand me, flying is awesome. I just concur with a bit of everyone thoughts on this. Yes to delay it's availability during the xpac. I don't mind a bit of grinding as long as it's account wide once gained. .2 patches seem a bit late. It should be available maximum 6 months after the beggining. It should be unlocked for older expansions as long as you gain flying in the newest.

- - - Updated - - -

There are a couple of ways to keep flying and content relevant at the same time.

1. Introduce flying combat and flying mobs. Or mobs with anti-flying weapons (arrows that target players while flying, etc.)

2. Place quest objectives inside buildings, caves or other areas where flight is disabled.

3. Disable flight after you have landed into the middle of a quest area. For instance, there is a mob you need to kill and loot inside a hut. You initially fly in and take him out.... Easy. But, once you kill him, you must walk back out of the "hot zone" before you can fly again. Meaning all the mobs you skipped by flying in are still a threat and still have to be dealt with. Either you have to deal with them on the way in or deal with them on the way out.

Just a few thoughts

Actually, these could be experimented, as long as they are removed once the xpac becomes obsolete.
The first 1 is already in mechagon, and prevents slacking while flying in almost all zones.

[horbindr]

Zone reachable by flying is gating. It have nothing to do with flying being part of the world content. Only zone where you could get shot down was in TBC and that only happen if you stoped flying for like 5 seconds. No quests ever requared flying or gliding. And even if it would be truth thats still not flying being part of world content. You still obly skipping terrain nothing els.You are doing nothing remotely close to combat or any sort of gameplay on your mount.

it's not gating if you have flying from the get go... thats the entire argument right?
you can get shot down in mechagon, TBC, bunch of towns. thats already 3 different types ready to go. add weather effects, grappling hooks, etc.
there are dozens of quest that require gliding. quest in that panda serpent place are build around flying iirc. it's not hard to think up more stuff.
there are also various quest where you are doing stuff while on a flying mount you don't control.
Bunch of WQs in asaults and darkshore put you in flying combat too. how many bombardment quest exist?

and then you start designing the story quest around those mechanics ofcourse. first thing that comes to mind is you have to go into an area on foot first, then you disable the air defenses and more areas open up. or the other way around, you have a bunch of flying quests to blow up the gate. Zones can have storms or natural weather that clears up later, or happens ar random times of the day.

A lot of examples of this stuff already exists ingame, where it's just one step away from being actual flying.

now the argument why they don't make it full on flying is probably because it would be tricky to control. which is definitely true for a bunch of my examples. but not for all. i'm sure if a bunch of game designers got together for a couple hours they could come up with some half decent ideas.

and sure.. ultimately "you are just skipping terrain" or "artificially limiting area", but thats just like saying something like "portals are OP" or "having to do 5 quest to unlock this next quest hub is gating content".

[Rendark]

Flying wasn't a problem until Blizzard made it one.

[Fullmetal89]

If you don't like flying there is an alternative! Play Classic.

[Elias01]

/facepalm

Your argument is that flying can't be used as a gate because teleports or other attunements can ALSO be used as gates? WTF...just stop typing.

- - - Updated - - -



Yes, no one EVER plays PVP just for the enjoyment of PVP. Nope. Never.

I take it back. PLEASE keep typing. You make yourself and your position look worse with every new post.

You should alredy know by now that players will always pick path of least resitance no matter if it ials fun or not. Efficienci will always beat fun.

And yes why use flying as gate to make world content trivial and skippable when u can use attument and not having flying instead? Flying was removed becouse it was causing gameplay issues. I get there is this conspiraci withing community that its gated to increase play time or w/e yet its nothing but speculation from entilted players.

[SirCowdog]

it's not gating if you have flying from the get go... thats the entire argument right?
you can get shot down in mechagon, TBC, bunch of towns. thats already 3 different types ready to go. add weather effects, grappling hooks, etc.
there are dozens of quest that require gliding. quest in that panda serpent place are build around flying iirc. it's not hard to think up more stuff.
there are also various quest where you are doing stuff while on a flying mount you don't control.
Bunch of WQs in asaults and darkshore put you in flying combat too. how many bombardment quest exist?

and then you start designing the story quest around those mechanics ofcourse. first thing that comes to mind is you have to go into an area on foot first, then you disable the air defenses and more areas open up. or the other way around, you have a bunch of flying quests to blow up the gate. Zones can have storms or natural weather that clears up later, or happens ar random times of the day.

A lot of examples of this stuff already exists ingame, where it's just one step away from being actual flying.

now the argument why they don't make it full on flying is probably because it would be tricky to control. which is definitely true for a bunch of my examples. but not for all. i'm sure if a bunch of game designers got together for a couple hours they could come up with some half decent ideas.

and sure.. ultimately "you are just skipping terrain" or "artificially limiting area", but thats just like saying something like "portals are OP" or "having to do 5 quest to unlock this next quest hub is gating content".

All good points.

The idea that flying can't be used as a gating mechanic, when there are all kinds of other gates in the game, is ridiculous. There are DPS checks based on getting the right iLVL gear in dungeons and raids. There are quests you must complete before progressing the open world(Suramar anyone?), there are reputation gates, phases like we saw in Firelands, etc.

All of those things lock further progress behind reaching certain steps. Flying could serve the same purpose. And it need not be in EVERY zone and area. As I mentioned in another thread, Mechagon and Nazjatar could have been set up this way, with one of the being strickly no-flying, while the other allowed it. Giving players of both camps a place for their preferred style of open world.

And by having additional content locked behind flight would give pushing for that unlock more value than the joke that it currently is under pathfinder. But this is also a very fine line to walk. Grounded content would ALSO have to have things to unlock so that players didn't feel forced to get flying in order to stay on par with flying players.

This has always been the crux of the flying vs no-flying debate: The disparity between flying and ground mounts. Both need to be similar speeds, and ground mounts need to provide an advantage that flying doesn't, so that it's an actual choice between the two instead of flight ALWAYS being the better option.

- - - Updated - - -

And yes why use flying as gate to make world content trivial and skippable when u can use attument and not having flying instead?

Gosh...I don't know. Maybe because players LIKE flying more that crawling through the mud and hordes of pointless trash mobs that they already killed 100 times over just to get flying in the first place?

Flying was removed becouse it was causing gameplay issues. I get there is this conspiraci withing community that its gated to increase play time or w/e yet its nothing but speculation from entilted players.

It's not a conspiracy theory. Blizzard themselves literally said that they wanted to try an open world without flying because of the challenges it created for the development process. They literally said that. Removing "challenges for the development process" means they wanted a more simple process so they could cut dev time down and save money.

That's just business.

Oh, and I like how you threw out the "entitled players" insult. Nice halfassed attempt to character assassinate people that don't share your view.

[Elias01]

it's not gating if you have flying from the get go... thats the entire argument right?
you can get shot down in mechagon, TBC, bunch of towns. thats already 3 different types ready to go. add weather effects, grappling hooks, etc.
there are dozens of quest that require gliding. quest in that panda serpent place are build around flying iirc. it's not hard to think up more stuff.
there are also various quest where you are doing stuff while on a flying mount you don't control.
Bunch of WQs in asaults and darkshore put you in flying combat too. how many bombardment quest exist?

and then you start designing the story quest around those mechanics ofcourse. first thing that comes to mind is you have to go into an area on foot first, then you disable the air defenses and more areas open up. or the other way around, you have a bunch of flying quests to blow up the gate. Zones can have storms or natural weather that clears up later, or happens ar random times of the day.

A lot of examples of this stuff already exists ingame, where it's just one step away from being actual flying.

now the argument why they don't make it full on flying is probably because it would be tricky to control. which is definitely true for a bunch of my examples. but not for all. i'm sure if a bunch of game designers got together for a couple hours they could come up with some half decent ideas.

and sure.. ultimately "you are just skipping terrain" or "artificially limiting area", but thats just like saying something like "portals are OP" or "having to do 5 quest to unlock this next quest hub is gating content".

Nobady would use grapling hooks when you can just fly there. Getting shot down in mecha? Never happed to me just touch ground for 0.1 sec and you are free to fly anywhere. Getting shotted in city? Never happed just avoid city or fly higher. There q like bombardment buy i think people would not like having this type of quests allll the time.

If you want flying to be part of the world you have to make it work in combat. Try desing world quets done while sitting on mount or balanced combat situation while on mount. That will never work. Oh look there is 5 quests what requare to be on mount. Oh boy lets destroy entire world with flying just so you can do those few quets. It takes far more than few quets to justifi flying and ruining world content.

- - - Updated - - -

All good points.

The idea that flying can't be used as a gating mechanic, when there are all kinds of other gates in the game, is ridiculous. There are DPS checks based on getting the right iLVL gear in dungeons and raids. There are quests you must complete before progressing the open world(Suramar anyone?), there are reputation gates, phases like we saw in Firelands, etc.

All of those things lock further progress behind reaching certain steps. Flying could serve the same purpose. And it need not be in EVERY zone and area. As I mentioned in another thread, Mechagon and Nazjatar could have been set up this way, with one of the being strickly no-flying, while the other allowed it. Giving players of both camps a place for their preferred style of open world.

And by having additional content locked behind flight would give pushing for that unlock more value than the joke that it currently is under pathfinder. But this is also a very fine line to walk. Grounded content would ALSO have to have things to unlock so that players didn't feel forced to get flying in order to stay on par with flying players.

This has always been the crux of the flying vs no-flying debate: The disparity between flying and ground mounts. Both need to be similar speeds, and ground mounts need to provide an advantage that flying doesn't, so that it's an actual choice between the two instead of flight ALWAYS being the better option.

- - - Updated - - -



Gosh...I don't know. Maybe because players LIKE flying more that crawling through the mud and hordes of pointless trash mobs that they already killed 100 times over just to get flying in the first place?





It's not a conspiracy theory. Blizzard themselves literally said that they wanted to try an open world without flying because of the challenges it created for the development process. They literally said that. Removing "challenges for the development process" means they wanted a more simple process so they could cut dev time down and save money.

That's just business.

Oh, and I like how you threw out the "entitled players" insult. Nice halfassed attempt to character assassinate people that don't share your view.

No it was becouse those development challenges were not reachable or solvable TBC, Wotlk did not had those challenges solved. TBC and WoTLK terrain was absolote becouse of flying. Those expansion were not designed for flying. Flying made them dead.

Players also doesnt like dealing with LFR so maybe we should just mail gear when they press lfr button. Yoy are not supostu like it. Thats the point. It is obstacle to your goal. Mmorpgs have to have this. Game with out obstacles isnt game at all.

[horbindr]

Nobady would use grapling hooks when you can just fly there.

it's only amusing if you aren't blatantly obvious.

[Djaye]

i dont see why they just dont tax flying more.
give a limit to the time you can spend in air, maybe a buff you can work on to extend it.
make the cast time like 10 seconds, its almost instant cast now so it can be used to dive in and out of mobs with little time to be attacked or mobbed.
bring back slower travel. first level of flight for an expansion goes much slower than faster forms that can be unlocked or bought.
make mobs be able to attack you and bring you down from the sky if you are low enough to ground. this could actually make for an amazing leveling and flying experience.

again, embrace flying. there are so many aspects to it that could be implemented to add to the game and make the world even bigger, better and more dangerous...

[Elias01]

i dont see why they just dont tax flying more.
give a limit to the time you can spend in air, maybe a buff you can work on to extend it.
make the cast time like 10 seconds, its almost instant cast now so it can be used to dive in and out of mobs with little time to be attacked or mobbed.
bring back slower travel. first level of flight for an expansion goes much slower than faster forms that can be unlocked or bought.
make mobs be able to attack you and bring you down from the sky if you are low enough to ground. this could actually make for an amazing leveling and flying experience.

again, embrace flying. there are so many aspects to it that could be implemented to add to the game and make the world even bigger, better and more dangerous...

They could let people opt in for flying and balace reward structure for grounded players so going by foot have same efficienci as flying and put 1 day cd on it. But that would requare long term testing for each zone to get more less right %. But that would angry lot of flyers becouse in the end only reason why they actualy want flying is becouse they can get more rewards faster and more efficiently no becouse they actualy like being in the air.

[tacoloco]

OP, really? Another flying thread?

[Marrilaife]

Every single dungeon or raid entrance is accessible almost immediately from a flight path

Wish that was true.

Uldir had to use goblin gliders every time to skip that stupid hole in the ground. Dazar'alor was fine. Crucible we had a fp at Shrine of the Storms but somehow no passage around or some stupid debuff that would port back, so again, riding around / gliding with no flight. EP the flight path requires questing to unlock and even then is across a chasm from the entrance proper that is surrounded by elite mobs, so again goblin gliders if no flying.

Dungeons: I don't know for Horde, but for Alliance it's possible to be unable to enter Waycrest without flying / summon if you haven't finished questing in Drustvar, there's a specific phase you can get stuck with doors closed around and you have to do the questline to open them, or fly, or get summoned. Tol Dagor has a fp, but it was a pita to get it ticked before flying, had to use waterwalking mount (that since then was changed to require mount equipment, or shaman / dk). Underrot again is in that stupid hole even further away than Uldir.

Atal'dazar and Temple of Sethraliss for Alliance require progressing war campaign and then paying 600 or so resources on every alt to unlock that flight path (can't remember exactly). I'd imagine some of the Kul Tiras dungeons require the same for Horde. And then King's Rest again requires riding through mob filled area of outdoor Atal'dazar or gliding from the top.

I mean none of them are super far, and I'm glad to be an engineer on 3 characters because of pre-flight parts of xpacs, but flying isn't "useless" since most interactions with dungeons are on m+ (heroics are forgotten after 1st week of xpac, pointless even for gearing alts due to how strong WQ gear is), and raids are obvious, if I don't raid with guild, I would pug heroic, or maybe normal on alts, but LFR is super pointless due to again gear being below WQ rewards. "Tp to instance" exists only for the levels of raid / dungeon that barely anyone uses except for rare cases of specific quest (motherlode for Dark Iron Dwarf allied race for example) or transmog.

P.S. Still better than WOD / Legion, I remember some dungeons there being super annoying to get into without flight, like Shadowmoon Burial Grounds or the Suramar ones without questing through Suramar on every alt to unlock the portal nexus.

[Steelcryo]

Actualy mahority of people wouldn just quit doing world pvp. Flying is way too powerfull to pass on it.

I doubt it, most who want WPVP aren't doing it for PvE content, they're doing it for PVP. So they probably care more about doing PVP than the speed bonus flying gives to completely PvE content.

- - - Updated - - -

I think the vast majority of the playerbase would be much happier if flight was unlocked after part 1 of Pathfinder, but disabled while War Mode was toggled on. And there aren't a whole lot of compelling arguments against such a setup.

Yeah, turn flying off if Warmode is on, give Pathfinder after part 1 as that does all the exploration/rep/questline requirements. Best of both worlds imo.

[Shiza]

I don't disagree, but saying that there's no danger at all in the open world isn't true if it's possible to die by doing something stupid. It being an annoyance is absolutely true...but it's only an annoyance because there is actually danger and you have to pay attention to what you're doing to make sure you don't end up in one of those situations.

But it is not a good danger, in the sense of it creating an immersive feeling of threat or a challenge on the ground. Like, with classic, the world was dangerous in a challenging way, that you had to be careful where you travel and how you engage mobs in combat. Even the streets was always a threat and even staying on them could be dangerous in certain zones, due to elite mobs patrolling through them. It gave you an down to earth feeling. In terms of immersive threat, there was the Fel Reaver in Hellfire Peninsula, wo was this colossal mighty beast that just randomly patrolled the entire zone, especially back in the day when he would bug out and just start running around the zone. It conveied this feeling of threat that we were supposed to feel when we entered the zone, which was nearly fully controlled by demons and fel orcs. The danger we nowadays have in zones on the other hand, is just an annoyance. It doesn't deliver us a challenge nor an immersive feeling of entering a dangerous and hostile zone.