What rewards does raiding need to make it more appealing?

[hulkgor]

It could reward irl money and it still would be a pain to raid for the general person.

The only way to make raiding more atractive is if it was a solo freature with the option for cooperation.

"raid"...."solo".

sigh

[kaminaris]

This is one of those stop nerfing fun kind of things. If a LFR/Normal/Heroic player hits the lottery and gets a really nice piece of gear that's FUN for them. It doesn't impact me in any way. Every single piece of gear that drops for me is going to be somewhere around the power level of that singular item that they hit the jackpot on. It doesn't impact me in a negative way and it never has. Even when people were bad at math and thought that they had to run every piece of content because they were likely to get an upgrade from it because they didn't understand how the system worked or basic probability that was a problem that the community created out of ignorance. If they remove TF because the small subset of the community that I belong to whines about it because we're not happy that we already have the best of everything and we can't even let the casuals get a single decent piece at random that they likely won't ever actually get and even if they do get it they'll only keep it for a tier that's just punishing the other 95% of the playerbase that doesn't raid Mythic.

They tried that in WoD when we whined about tier bonuses and trinkets from raidfinder and they removed tier bonuses and useful trinkets from LFR and completely neutered the endgame for everyone that wasn't raiding on a hardcore level. That's the expansion that cost them HALF of their subs in a single quarter. There is a reason why they reverted their changes at the start of Legion. If they remove TF and replace it with some bullshit grind that nobody likes because my subset of players has a hardon for "deterministic rewards" right now I don't expect it will go any better than WoD did.

Oh man, finally someone with basic math skills understanding how TF works.
Yeah long story short, TF was never a problem (maybe except the very first iteration that was uncapped and more frequent)

[asil]

Tell yourself whatever you need to and if you enjoy it then do it. Not everyone is looking for a social life via wow though.

Then don't complain. If you want to be anti-social, go play a single player game.

[Andonais]

Again, this is your personal problem: Jealousy. I couldn't care less about what other players gear is. It still won't magically allow them to clear mythic.

Not jealous at all and I don't care about others gear there is no point other than maybe a specific trinket to raid anything upto and including hc because you can get that level gear in a more efficient way

[Augusta138]

Again, take away the loot an no one will do the content.
It's as simple as that. What you feel about this doesn't matter one bit.

Thats just not how it works.

Taking away the loot will make the content harder. Since the loot is a tool to progress. And not the main reason to raid

[Aggrophobic]

You are absolutely wrong on this one. We are doing raids even if there is no chance to get any upgrade from it. Been like this since MoP.
Literally nobody in our raiding group is excited about loot. 100% wants to just kill azshara.

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No it doesn't. It helps bad players to push forward when they hit a wall, and tier sets sucks ass, 4/6 slots of gear locked for entire raid tier.

What YOU do does not matter. Whenever Blizzard has removed the rewards, people have given up on the content.
No one cares what YOU feel here becuase thats simply not how the average player works.

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Thats just not how it works.

Taking away the loot will make the content harder. Since the loot is a tool to progress. And not the main reason to raid

What? What does that have to do with anything? Yes, no loot makes the game harder but that would still not make the game more enjoyable for the average player.

[Carnagexz]

What YOU do does not matter. Whenever Blizzard has removed the rewards, people have given up on the content.
No one cares what YOU feel here becuase thats simply not how the average player works.

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What? What does that have to do with anything? Yes, no loot makes the game harder but that would still not make the game more enjoyable for the average player.

Absolutely agree. I find it funny how most people over here tend to conflate their personal anecdotal evidence vs actual behavioral statistics that we've observed with past blizz decisions. (Players running content and subs.)

I've played this game since day one vanilla and since then, until now, its seriously the same friggin argument. You have ultra-minority raiders, who already have BIS gear from their content, already got exclusive mounts, titles, transmogs, even events and endings that no mere "Mortal" can see. And they ALWAYS bitch about 'ZOMG! No one should care about gear, because I don't!' Then here is my question guys... "Why do you care?"

Seriously, what more incentive can raiding get at this point? Your don't see people going into higher raiding tiers because higher raiding tiers is not something majority of players like. Face it. Blizzard has learned this the hard-way every time they've attempted to force the general population to raid. Every time they take something away from 95% the game suffers, because people leave in droves. You don't see converts popping up, people try, find out they either a) can't commit that much time, or b) can't deal with their game escapism having the social rigidity of their jobs.

If you want more people into raiding, then raiding itself needs to change; which lets be honest, none of you would be in it anymore if it did.
Having a casual getting a tiny % chance of getting a gear isn't taking a thing away from Mr. Big-Time Raider. They still will be lowly casual under geared scrubs, you guys can relax.

[Augusta138]

What YOU do does not matter. Whenever Blizzard has removed the rewards, people have given up on the content.
No one cares what YOU feel here becuase thats simply not how the average player works.

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What? What does that have to do with anything? Yes, no loot makes the game harder but that would still not make the game more enjoyable for the average player.

So you only play games for loot? Thats a short list of games you play.

Removing gear means the challenges wont be possible because there is some level of gear required at some point

[Trend]

So with no class sets or tier bonuses coming in Shadowlands initially what rewards do you think blizzard should add to raiding to make it more appealing for both casual and hardcore players? Or do you think raiding rewards are fine as is?

How many people do you think need to be consistently raiding before people should stop talking about it as if it is broken and needs to be fixed?

[Aggrophobic]

So you only play games for loot? Thats a short list of games you play.

Removing gear means the challenges wont be possible because there is some level of gear required at some point

Not talking about just me but yes, WoW is about loot.

[kaminaris]

What YOU do does not matter. Whenever Blizzard has removed the rewards, people have given up on the content.
No one cares what YOU feel here becuase thats simply not how the average player works.

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What? What does that have to do with anything? Yes, no loot makes the game harder but that would still not make the game more enjoyable for the average player.

Its not how I feel, its how mythic community is. Sorry but you either never been in guilds top 200-1000 or you just don't know mythic raiding community.
Vast majority of mythic raiders view raids as something hard, not as loot pinata.

People who care about loot are viewed here as "loot whores" and are generally not well percieved because they block progress with constant whining about the need to reclear entire tier because "he has only heroic trinket for boss X".

Sorry to burst your bubble.

[Onikaroshi]

The only incentive normal and heroic need is to become strong enough to get to mythic.

Normal and Heroic are end game for most Raiders, most will NEVER touch mythic. Because:

1. they may not be good enough and they know it
2. they may prefer small group raiding and not want to field a team of 20+
3. they may not be ABLE to field a team of 20+ on the regular due to server size
4. they may not want to, just plain and simple, they don't want to do mythic
5. etc.

We had a team of 25ish and every time we did a poll of if we wanted to start mythic, 2/3s would say no.

[Gorsameth]

M+ provides an easier alternative to raiding.

Many people will follow the path of least resistance, so they chose to do M+ instead of raid.

[Flower Milk]

There's really nothing they could do, I stopped raiding because I dislike the WoW community and I didn't like being treated poorly because I'm a woman. It turned me off from raiding in this game completely, and then the bad design decisions turned me off from playing the game at all in general.

There are infinitely better and more welcoming MMO communities out there, or just better gaming in general communities. FFXIV in my experience is infinitely more welcoming to women, for example. And even Blizzard's other games, like Overwatch, have been more welcoming to me than WoW, and the community there isn't even the greatest.

[Gaidax]

Well, raiding still gives hands down best gear there is for one. At least Mythic one.

I want more vanity stuff, mogs and titles.

[sam86]

no titanforge, no 1502 difficulty, i love wrath but TBC is still better (except Ulduar hard mode ideas)
1 single setting for any raid, so instead of being some lazy a88es and do just 1 raid 4 difficulties (and usually f8ck up numbers on difficulty but who cares, surely not blizz) doing actual 4 raids with many different bosses
check TBC raids or wrath in compare to even Legion, TBC sheer amount of raids alone dwarf any other exp except wrath, which has some of best raids
Ulduar hard modes should be the way hardmode fight goes, not click on click off system

[Vynlann]

I want something similar to tier sets back, it doesn't have to be a tier set but tier set bonuses were something to look forward to. Not the boring +5% holy light healing bs, but something like the firelands sets, how each one themed around fire to an extent, just as a pure example. Sometimes tier sets felt so good I'd be like "wow, they should add this as a baseline." Felt like I said that about mistweaver hellfire citadel set, forget what it did though.

As far as locking gear pieces for an entire tier, it's not like azerite pieces are doing that now to be fair.

Part of my problem with raiding nowadays also is I need to play just as much outside of raid if not more to be relevant, and that is to me a problem. I might be in the minority here, but the reward for me getting to raid level was the "option" to play outside of raid to better myself, back when I played the most from bc-mop, if you were raiding, you were getting the best gear. People don't like raid logging, and I get that, but I feel if I don't play everyday, I'm falling behind those that do. I personally don't like m+, and yet m+ is one of the best ways to gear up and even then unless you're a high end mythic raider, you can still get just as much gear as a mythic raider about every week it seems like.

You can simply say "Well just don't do m+" or "don't play wow everyday, join a casual guild" and I did that, I tried that. But expectations aligned with "well everyone else is doing this, why aren't or can't you?" and I felt bad, and felt even more guilty when they'd say "just don't do it, it's a casual guild, you'll be fine" but again, it's just the pressure of everyone else is doing it, so why can't you?"

It's hard to please both crowds, and I get why m+ was added, and why world quests and this "log on daily and better yourself if you want" but if you want to be in any high end guild, you do it, no questions asked or they'll find someone else who will. It's been this way since the beginning.

So until they find a way for raiding to be better rewards than m+, or separate the two in some capacity so I'm not pressured into doing m+, and I'm not feeling like I fall behind in world quests, I just don't feel like raiding will ever feel as rewarding. We had a similar problem in cata to a degree with valor points from daily heroics. They changed it to a weekly cap. You'd run your 7 dungeons all in one day or two, be done for the week. Originally it was "every day you get valor points" so if you missed a day you were behind. If they changed it so you could only gain azerite power (or this new anima power I guess) weekly max, then it'd be fine. Especially if it came from raids. Or m+, and they could separate gear to work or do better only in dungeons or raids.

I know blizzard isn't about this "separating their modes into games" mindset, but this clearly isn't working in it's current state, bite the fucking bullet and do it, this goes for pvp too.

[kaminaris]

There's really nothing they could do, I stopped raiding because I dislike the WoW community and I didn't like being treated poorly because I'm a woman. It turned me off from raiding in this game completely, and then the bad design decisions turned me off from playing the game at all in general.

Excuses, been playing with girls since MoP, somehow nobody treated them differently because of that. Well, but they had normal personality and good performance.

If anything, girls get better treatment cause they are rare.

So you either been in shitty guilds or have terrible personality.

[Flower Milk]

Excuses, been playing with girls since MoP, somehow nobody treated them differently because of that. Well, but they had normal personality and good performance.

If anything, girls get better treatment cause they are rare.

So you either been in shitty guilds or have terrible personality.

Your experience doesn't trump or change my experience. For whatever reason, that's been my experience in the over decade long amount of time I've played this game and raided in it. And that's my reason for not raiding in it now, the community sucks, and even if there are decent/friendly raiding guilds out there, I could not find them. I had no trouble at all finding friendly people in FFXIV or other games, so it's definitely not me.

[Morae]

M+ rewards far too much.

Why would you bother doing raiding when you can get better gear easier from M+?

Mythic raiding is one thing, but thats not for everyone. To do mythic raiding you will also need to do M+ or you hold back your team.