Anyone NOT that hyped for 'return to class'?

[fatgunn]

warlock is definitely not for you, roll another class

I've been a warlock main for almost a decade....

Curses suck.

[Loveliest]

Ret really doesn't feel like it has much in common with Prot right now - Ret's pretty squishy, lacks utility, can't off-tank, off-healing is very limited...

Don't know, depends on what utility you're looking for. I admit, I hardly ever play retri, but comparing them to Prot:
- healing: both have Lay on hands, Flash heal and Word of glory (powered by holy power, though it's kind of a small heal and not % based)
- stuns: both have single target, retri can spec into a demon / undead AoE one as well (Holy Wrath of old comes to mind)
- hands: bop, reckoning, freedom - both the same; only one that's missing is Sacrifice
- dispells: both the same
- interrupts: the same
- immunity: bubble, the same
Both have wings for burst. Both have bubble for soaking. Retri has some blessings prot doesn't.

Prot is tankier, yes, has a 50% damage reduction, has ardent defender but yeah, I don't think there's supposed to be a dps as tanky as a tank, otherwise we'd just use the dps. And self healing - the same vein.
Indeed, I agree about Righteous Fury, but I also miss my actual Prot generating healing aggro, so you have that change as well.

All in all I don't think they're all that different. I guess to someone who plays retri as a main they might feel somewhat stripped compared to the past (like Wrath), but what we're comparing is current prot with current retri. Also, I don't think return to class will ever mean paladin will ever be a true hybrid again who can do everything on all roles with just about the same efficiency.

[Pigglix]

I really hate some useless shit mages are getting. "Oh you dont pvp so you will never know what baiting is before popping my uber cdz"

Fucking really? Since when this work outside of 1v1 duels? In bg or arena you "bait with fireball, get spell locked, then get spell locked in frost or arcane because another person will interrupt you. Wow grats, now you're locked into two spell schools, GG

I would be fine if they unprun stuff that matters, like mirror image for all specs, temporal shield and so on. I also would be happy AF if they nuke Rune of Power out of the mage class.

Now imagine if they make wand talent a thing again! Omg i can be the harry potter wizard mage fantasy and wand my way to victory auto shooting all day long, yay! /s

About lock curses, ppl saying you wont be forced to cast them? Hello? Say that to your raid lead when he/she/it decide that for that boss encounter you will be the "curse bitch"

I believe the unprun makes more sense to "hibrid classes", because that what they are, hibrids. Now for pures? Gtfo with that.

Much joy, such fun, cant wait for the greatness of what holinka will do with this.

Also it was the same holinka who said that ashran was one of the best things ever....

Oh and btw i play since the end of vanilla and i can say for sure that i dont miss "class identity". Because class identity to me remind me of being a ret pally doing less dps than a healer because of the "hibrid tax" "it is your fault for playing a paladin who dreamed ret could be a dps spec, because what it matters is the class not the spec lulz"

/rant off

[Rezark]

I like the spec identity. I like that when im playing my frost DK that I don't have to deal with a ghoul pet/gargoyle. I don't want to go back to having 50 billion totems on my shaman and spending most of the fight staring at totem timers to play optimally. I do feel like shamans identify with totems but I don't want Blizzard to just hit rewind. Innovate work them into things that exist, Ele shamans earthquake could easily just be quaking earth totem. Identical spell but with a totem in the center pulsing into the earth making the quakes. Gives you totems and shaman identity, thats what I want, not a rewind!

[deviantcultist]

and? What will change when they suddenly learn to heal (I hope, you still remember, that they could heal with "damage", use vampiric mechanism and other stuff, is this not meet your fantasies?), not in active form, of course, and not particularly effective compared to "having bonus talents" ones, but still they will? Nothing! Nothing special, except what is stated. You, as I understand it, still don't understand the irony of issue. I indirectly pointed out that nothing prevents devs in their "pursuit of money" (and this was especially true for mentioned expansion) from perverting situation in any (in)accessible way, and since Legion is one of the most "damaged" stages of WoW lore, then that *pointing at Legion stuff link which was given as irrefutable evidence of truth* so-called "class fantasy" (but in reality was = spec fantasy) does cost absolutely nothing significant (game will easily pan out, as it previously did without this idiocy, and people will be able to think out RP component exactly as much as mechanic will allow them to do it, which speaks in favor of “not yours” option):



Ahem... and now about your statement from "almost the entire community of shadow priests", please don't make me laugh, I have enough for today already

<<BACK

Not sure what to quote first. I could simply reverse everything you said and claim it is my opinion. If you go as far as get passive-aggressive about denying my claim regarding the shadowpriest community, then I guess there is really no point "debating".

Apparently Blizz has listening too much to crowds likeminded to yours as evident to the backwards Shadowlands direction.

PS. Have a read on Priest lore before you try to argue with people. Spec are indeed NOT a lore thing, but Shadowpriest have turned their back on the Light 100%. Of course, it's either lore or gameplay whenever it's convenient. Seems like you have that in common with Blizz.

[Biske]

I love spec identity. For context, I've been playing since WoW's beta, so I've seen some pretty dramatic changes through WoW's life. What I don't like, though, is some of the abilities that were made spec-specific, or just straight up removed, especially in hybrid classes. For example, I want my exorcism and holy wrath back (in its old iteration). They weren't great, but they were useful in their niche situations. The timing on removing/changing those abilities was also pretty bad. Basically right before the expansion where they would have been most useful (Legion) and limited to Ret. Why would a Holy Paladin not be able to use exorcism? Hell, if anyone's going to be exorcising the fuck out of something, the most likely candidate would be the holiest of the paladins.

Anyway, so with some classes, changing specs didn't feel much different. Maybe I used a skill more, or had one extra different button or whatever, but all the specs ultimately felt mostly same-y for me outside of hybrid classes and Death Knights. With spec identity, every spec felt like its own class, and I thought that was pretty cool.

So in summary, I never had any issues with the spec identity and actually loved it, but I DID have issues with skills that were arbitrarily made spec-specific with no logical reason (why the hell would a pirate or a shadow ninja thing NOT use poisons?) or just flat out removed just because they weren't useful 100% of the time.

[Schizoide]

of classics success.

I think that contributed to it, sure. But it's more that they had to balance 36 classes rather than 12.

And similar to the "curses suck" warlock, I played a shaman since vanilla and believe you me, totems suck. Being forced to waste a GCD before every. Single. Pull. Just to summon a passive buff. They suuuuuuuuuuck. Making totems active abilities that actually do something, and on cooldowns/utility so you don't use them every single pull, that was a great change. I dread going back to the way it was before.

[kamuimac]

This is a HUGE step forward, so I am excited. Not sure why some people see it as a step backwards, when it is clearly a step forward

because it may shock you some peopel enjoy current class design when you dont need razor naga to even play on semi decent level and dont feel like you are playing the piano .

- - - Updated - - -

Actually they did... we did, and continue to do. Pirates "as class mechanics" don't belong to rogue theme, by the way at all. And, no, it isn't.

and yet i find current outlaw spec very fun to play with -_-

[Gungnir]

I really hate some useless shit mages are getting. "Oh you dont pvp so you will never know what baiting is before popping my uber cdz"

Fucking really? Since when this work outside of 1v1 duels? In bg or arena you "bait with fireball, get spell locked, then get spell locked in frost or arcane because another person will interrupt you. Wow grats, now you're locked into two spell schools, GG

Aye, and now you've baited out two interrupts out of the enemy team and you still have Arcane to sheep and pressure with aswell as still having Blink to get away with. All in all a net win in regards to PvP in every regard.

I would be fine if they unprun stuff that matters, like mirror image for all specs, temporal shield and so on. I also would be happy AF if they nuke Rune of Power out of the mage class.

But why would they? Mirror Image and Temporal Shield are solely an arcane abilities, they shouldn't be available to frost or fire.
Same with polymorph, time warp, conjure refreshments, blink shouldn't be allowed for frost or fire mages since it's solely arcane abilities.
Ice Block shouldn't be allowed for fire or arcane mages etc.

You can't tote 'spec identity' and go halfway, either you 100% want each element to be completely seperated or you don't.

About lock curses, ppl saying you wont be forced to cast them? Hello? Say that to your raid lead when he/she/it decide that for that boss encounter you will be the "curse bitch"

As a warlock main, I'd fucking LOVE to have anything more to do than solely DPS.
It sure is great seeing a boss add run towards the raids inevitable demise just because I don't have a slow available to me.

Oh and btw i play since the end of vanilla and i can say for sure that i dont miss "class identity". Because class identity to me remind me of being a ret pally doing less dps than a healer because of the "hibrid tax" "it is your fault for playing a paladin who dreamed ret could be a dps spec, because what it matters is the class not the spec lulz"

Hybrid tax stopped being a thing back in TBC though..
I understand that you're passionate about this and for some reason very upset, but it really isn't as reality ending as you think it will be.
MoP still had class identity above spec identity, and that was the prime regarding gameplay in WoW.

[Doffen]

MoP still had class identity above spec identity, and that was the prime regarding gameplay in WoW.

So why did they change it? I guess the devs didn't agree with you. You keep parroting why class/Spec design matters, when it doesn't matter the slightest for gameplay, and for some reason you seem upset about this. It will never become what it was in MoP again, the devs didn't like all the classes having the same option and abilities. Seems to me you only want everyone to be OP and homogenized, when the devs try to go away from that. Which is why the design in Shadowlands will be a mix of both class and spec. I think that will be a good thing. Keep specs different, but add some niche class abilities. That's the approach they have going into the next expansion.

[Alkizon]

and yet i find current outlaw spec very fun to play with -_-

Nothing ingenious from what I didn't commented before:

Well, impressions are relative/individual, but from mechanics point of view - this was the worst option of "old system". For example, MoP was the best option of "new system" but! new one is worse than old in coherence with RPG component of this game. Ie, I can say that I liked MoP classes design, but I continue to argue that in general it's bad system for this particular game. Is that more clear? Mastery was crap in way they implemented it, but reforging was good. Glyphs was added during WotLK, in fact, they were additional "talent" options and could be easily realized inside talent trees, but they found a good place for a new profession, which isn't bad in itself.

- I could like smoking, but this still doesn't mean that it's healthy for my organism.

I may like system, but this doesn't mean that it's correct/better. Just as for current game design, todays class system design is appropriate (*shudders&frowns* it's disgusting to associate this filth with word "design" in general, but let's say this way), but here already conflict is much more global and flawed is entire game design, because it was created in attempt to divide indivisible (аnd the first steps were laid exactly by Cataclysm with its "separation into specs"/LFR/CRZ/phasing attempts). Most evident and obvious present ex.

The team wants to see more class representation in Mythic + and the MDI and will consider this when adding affixes in the future.

- it was needless to take into consideration such shitty additions during class design in MoP (as well as in previous expansions), so... but exactly Cataclysm was transition from old global design to new one, and it fully concerns class design too - it wasn't old and it wasn't new, it was transitional hybrid that had no independent future, because it had disadvantages of both systems together.

Be my guest, your fun doesn’t change essence of things, pirate can be also warrior, mage (see coastal territory), shaman and generally anyone, I already showed bard-pirate. We're talking exclusively about class mechanics and that this is inappropriate there in such implementation.

- - - Updated - - -

deviantcultist
Seems like you have that in common with Blizz.

Yes, but it's from their "idea" that you develop your own "shadow priests identity" theory. You yourself refer to them (it was you who gave a link to them, but I only criticized), and who is whose ideological "successor" after that? Don't you still see irony in what you're writing

[Gungnir]

So why did they change it? I guess the devs didn't agree with you.

They listened to the public and saw that a lot of people felt like they had too many buttons. So we basically got shafted by people unable to just ignore the abilities they don't use/don't want to use.

You keep parroting why class/Spec design matters, when it doesn't matter the slightest for gameplay, and for some reason you seem upset about this.

Where am I upset about this? Feel free to provide a citation.
And class/spec design do matter when it comes to gameplay, in fact the class and spec design dictates what the gameplay will be.

If you design a class to be a heavy-laden, plate clad behemoth and compare that to something like a monk, the plate-clad behemoth will have a slower type of gameplay and flow compared to the monk.
Class and spec design are the philosophies they base the gameplay on.

It will never become what it was in MoP again, the devs didn't like all the classes having the same option and abilities.

I mean.. as previously stated by Blizzard in regards as to why they decided to prune things for WoD, people were complaining about specs being needlessly complex and having a lot of buttons they didn't know what to do with, and might've confused new players.

Seems to me you only want everyone to be OP and homogenized, when the devs try to go away from that.

Feel free to provide a citation to where I've stated that.
I just want to play a class that feels good to play, I don't give a shit if it's strong or not. I've only been playing Survival Hunter in BfA since it's the only spec that feels somewhat complete and didn't get hit as hard as other classes from losing the Legion legendaries and artifact weapon, and Survival Hunter is far from OP in any way.

Which is why the design in Shadowlands will be a mix of both class and spec. I think that will be a good thing. Keep specs different, but add some niche class abilities. That's the approach they have going into the next expansion.

I mean that's just going back to what we had from TBC up to Legion, which I also think is a good thing.
People seem to think that 'going back towards class identity over spec identity' somehow means that every spec will be EXACTLY the same except like two abilities, but it's far from that extreme.

[Schizoide]

They listened to the public and saw that a lot of people felt like they had too many buttons. So we basically got shafted by people unable to just ignore the abilities they don't use/don't want to use.

Why do you care if your frost mage has fireball in his spellbook? That was a good prune, because it's a trap for unsophisticated players.

There were a ton of bad prunes, but removing spells you should never, ever, use was the right thing to do.

[Nhiosis]

I'm cautiously optimistic, but I also don't know if they can do it without mucking things up. Slapping in a few abilities from 4 expansions ago isn't expansion feature worthy, IMO. I'm excited to get demonic circle and curses back, but I'd also like to see some genuinely NEW abilities that aren't expansion specific 1 minute cool down buttons. I'd love to have a wider kit of multiple spell schools for lockout scenarios. Time and beta will tell.

[Polybius]

Actually they did... we did, and continue to do. Pirates "as class mechanics" don't belong to rogue theme, by the way at all. And, no, it isn't.

As a long time rogue I fail to see how Combat and Subtlety had any identity. Wow Combat rogues use two 1h weapons and specialize in parrying, so DEEP.

[Sluvs]

I think class fantasy won't fix the classes that need to be fixed.

So I'm not in love with it.

Although I don't hate it either.

[Gungnir]

Why do you care if your frost mage has fireball in his spellbook? That was a good prune, because it's a trap for unsophisticated players.

There were a ton of bad prunes, but removing spells you should never, ever, use was the right thing to do.

You know, I've seen tons of people ONLY using this specific example.
And I care, because I loved having the ability to throw an ability that cause ignite on rogues or druids that jumped me.

But sure, demonize me for unfortunately enjoying the fact that I had tools I could use outside of Patchwerk raiding, I truly apologize for my terrible transgression and I hope we can convince Blizzard to prune things down to Frostbolt and Ice Lance only, not having that pesky Blink or Time Warp on my bars because god forbid I have something other than frost spells there.
That would be truly awful.

[Dadwen]

You know, I've seen tons of people ONLY using this specific example.
And I care, because I loved having the ability to throw an ability that cause ignite on rogues or druids that jumped me.

But sure, demonize me for unfortunately enjoying the fact that I had tools I could use outside of Patchwerk raiding, I truly apologize for my terrible transgression and I hope we can convince Blizzard to prune things down to Frostbolt and Ice Lance only, not having that pesky Blink or Time Warp on my bars because god forbid I have something other than frost spells there.
That would be truly awful.

I've not played in a while (baring them putting back in a ranged SV hunter I may not) but you can still get schools of magic locked out too right?....

[Polybius]

You know, I've seen tons of people ONLY using this specific example.
And I care, because I loved having the ability to throw an ability that cause ignite on rogues or druids that jumped me.

But sure, demonize me for unfortunately enjoying the fact that I had tools I could use outside of Patchwerk raiding, I truly apologize for my terrible transgression and I hope we can convince Blizzard to prune things down to Frostbolt and Ice Lance only, not having that pesky Blink or Time Warp on my bars because god forbid I have something other than frost spells there.
That would be truly awful.

PvP had too many tools, remember stuns? It's pure grieving. Stuns are unlikely to come back. The rest even less so without Talents rework (they mentioned it's changed?). They wanted players to specialize one thing in their class, not specialize in everything.

Hybrids are a thing of the past, and for good reasons.

[Nero Duskwind]

Right. But look what an interesting situation this turns out to be, there is no normally developed talent system for this. This is what should be alarming here. Everything is still covered in mystery, but one without the other really doesn't work much. Do you see the irony in their recent statements?

Indeed I do. Ideally, I'd like to see a system that's a cross between the Vanilla talent point system and the PVP talent system. You pick your main spec and earn talent points to spend as you see fit while you complement your build with a selection of passives and utilities chosen from a pool of the other two specs.