How dangerous is Mexico?

[Raldazzar]

Less dangerous than Trump and his administration, for sure.

7 posts in before an 'orange man bad' moron...

it is objectively NOT.. the stats themselves posted in OP show that. christ not everything is about Trump. people like you enable him.. can't run out of toilet paper without it somehow being his fault!
[Infraction]

[sirmixalot]

People getting caught in the crossfire from a driveby shooting is a far cry from the systematic murder of an entire family, nice try.

Three adults, six children dead, six more children wounded. Tell me the last time you've heard of a gang in the U.S. doing that.

The Pike County murders in Ohio.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_County_shootings

[Ivanstone]

The program didn't go "wrong" by it being found out about, that's just wierd to think. It went wrong because there was no way for it to work as intended.

It still doesn't change the fact that the "whistleblower" personally failed in his duties.

With no results and little publicity. Certainly the guns were never recovered except where they show up at crime scenes.

Yes, the truth is much less glamouous than GOP politicians showboating in front of the cameras. Certainly all the cartel purchased guns since F&F only re-appear at crime scenes.

I can't explain why the multiple-tracking forms are on paper and not tracked on computer, since they are both on paper and also tracked on computer...
ATF doesn't care about punishing people, they care about large busts to get press. The main resources needed are on the Federal Prosecuters side, really. The cost of a trial is expensive and we need more of them if we're to enforce existing law.

They're not tracked by computer only by paper and this is by design. The GOP specifically withholds resources to help prosecute these crimes. They're quite happy to see unscrupulous gun dealers make money selling weapons to anyone. To do otherwise would risk the ire of the NRA and some of their voters.

But no, you're right, it's better to pass new laws that won't be enforced so folks can feel better that they're doing something about crime. Maybe we need a "fight crime" wrist band? That'll get the job done.

Under-enforcement is a problem. No legislation at all is worse.

[Rasulis]

yeah, if only we had a big giant wall to help stop it.

Most of the firearms smuggled into Mexico came through the ports of entry.

Interesting paragraphs from the GAO report.

According to documents provided by ATF, since kits, castings, and flats are not classified as firearms, transfers of those items are not regulated under the Gun Control Act or National Firearms Act. Although ICE officials noted they are subject to export control laws, they have no serial numbers and generally no markings; thus, firearms assembled with them are untraceable. In addition, receivers and firearms parts are small and when transported separately may not be easily identified as items intended for the production of firearms. They are also easy to conceal, making it more challenging for customs authorities to detect illicit shipments of such parts.

According to ATF officials, there are no reliable data on the extent of firearm parts trafficking from the United States into Mexico. They noted, however, that recent seizures of firearms parts, firearms made with unmarked parts, and equipment used to assemble or manufacture firearms in Mexico suggest an emerging reliance by criminal organizations on this source of weapons. For example, law enforcement officials in Mexico described to us two high-profile cases in 2014 involving illicit firearm parts assembly of this type. One was in Guadalajara, where Jalisco state police seized hundreds of unfinished receivers and pieces of sophisticated equipment being used to complete high caliber rifles. The second was in Tijuana, where Baja California state police seized 25 rifles in the process of assembly with firearm parts from the United States.

[Nefastus]

A lot. Drug cartels rule the country. Meanwhile their socialist president is more worried about protecting the dictator of Bolivia than with his own citizens.

[Svifnymr]

It still doesn't change the fact that the "whistleblower" personally failed in his duties.

Because he didn't report the Obama program sooner? I guess, but how does that deflect the blame from the program itself? What a weird way to discuss things.

Yes, the truth is much less glamouous than GOP politicians showboating in front of the cameras. Certainly all the cartel purchased guns since F&F only re-appear at crime scenes.

Blame the GOP again, sure, ignore the guns involved. Certainly all the guns purchased since then have been properly investigated and the appropriate people were prosecuted?

They're not tracked by computer only by paper and this is by design.

You don't know the difference in programs, do you?

The GOP specifically withholds resources to help prosecute these crimes. They're quite happy to see unscrupulous gun dealers make money selling weapons to anyone. To do otherwise would risk the ire of the NRA and some of their voters.

They specifically withhold money from federal prosecutors to prosecute gun crimes? Interesting theory.

Under-enforcement is a problem. No legislation at all is worse.

The point is, we HAVE legislation. There is no "No Legislation" option. We have laws (as does Mexico) that affect these situations. Why not increase budgets for Federal prosecution and go after these people? Did Obama submit increased law enforcement budgets and the GOP controlled Congress shot them down? I don't recall such a thing happening, but maybe I missed it. All I remember is wanting to remove the rights of more law abiding citizens while continuing to not enforce laws.

I guess we just have different perspectives.

[Ivanstone]

The point is, we HAVE legislation. There is no "No Legislation" option. We have laws (as does Mexico) that affect these situations. Why not increase budgets for Federal prosecution and go after these people? Did Obama submit increased law enforcement budgets and the GOP controlled Congress shot them down? I don't recall such a thing happening, but maybe I missed it. All I remember is wanting to remove the rights of more law abiding citizens while continuing to not enforce laws.

I guess we just have different perspectives.

Why not increase budgets for Federal prosecution and go after these people? 2nd Amendment, GOP, NRA take your pick.
Did Obama submit increased law enforcement budgets and the GOP controlled Congress shot them down? Yes
All I remember is wanting to remove the rights of more law abiding citizens while continuing to not enforce laws. The same laws that make it easier for people to buy whatever guns they want also make it very easy for criminals to get their hands on them. Every illegal gun was a legal gun at some point. If you don't want the cartels to buy guns, then you're going to have to take steps to make it harder for them to do so. That includes proper legislation and funding of regulatory bodies. The GOP protects gun use by weakening legislation and funding. The GOP either doesn't know or doesn't care that criminals can exploit this.

[Svifnymr]

Why not increase budgets for Federal prosecution and go after these people? 2nd Amendment, GOP, NRA take your pick.
Did Obama submit increased law enforcement budgets and the GOP controlled Congress shot them down? Yes
All I remember is wanting to remove the rights of more law abiding citizens while continuing to not enforce laws. The same laws that make it easier for people to buy whatever guns they want also make it very easy for criminals to get their hands on them. Every illegal gun was a legal gun at some point. If you don't want the cartels to buy guns, then you're going to have to take steps to make it harder for them to do so. That includes proper legislation and funding of regulatory bodies. The GOP protects gun use by weakening legislation and funding. The GOP either doesn't know or doesn't care that criminals can exploit this.

Just keep blaming the GOP then, I guess, rather than look at any of the actual problems. People can't buy whatever guns they want, there are laws in place, but sure, somehow Registration will be less ignored than the current laws? You should google Khyber Pass guns sometime (if we want to ignore that a CNC mill is a thing).

[Ivanstone]

Just keep blaming the GOP then, I guess, rather than look at any of the actual problems. People can't buy whatever guns they want, there are laws in place, but sure, somehow Registration will be less ignored than the current laws? You should google Khyber Pass guns sometime (if we want to ignore that a CNC mill is a thing).

A. The GOP willfully make it easier for regular citizens to obtain a wide variety of guns. Some people prefer it this way. MMO-C has an entire thread dedicated to this.
B. A criminal is a regular citizen until they get caught doing something criminal.
Don't be so shocked that point A and point B overlap somewhat. Thoughts, prayers and blaming video games is just sticking your head in the sand.

[Svifnymr]

A. The GOP willfully make it easier for regular citizens to obtain a wide variety of guns. Some people prefer it this way. MMO-C has an entire thread dedicated to this.
B. A criminal is a regular citizen until they get caught doing something criminal.
Don't be so shocked that point A and point B overlap somewhat. Thoughts, prayers and blaming video games is just sticking your head in the sand.

The step you're ignoring is that when the criminal buys the gun and breaks the law and the broken law is detected, it is ignored. When that same criminal does so again, it is ignored. And again. And again. Finally, at some point, when 50-100 guns have flowed into criminal networks, ATF might go arrest the guy and put a stop to it. Here's a hint, if ATF prosecutes that first straw purchase, that guy is now a felon and can't straw purchase again!

As for the first part, yes the GOP willfully minimizes the roadblocks to citizens utilizing their rights as codified in the second amendment. If you wish to restrict the rights of the free, you should be able to demonstrate that such restrictions would have a greater impact on the criminals than it would on the legal. Stop & Frisk reduced crime, but also hindered the individuals rights. Wouldn't removing the fourth amendment protections give a great boost to crime fighting?

I see you're aware of the gun megathread, but you don't seem to have read any of it to gain information, rather just taken your own views and reinforced them in spite of the discussions.

[Ivanstone]

The step you're ignoring is that when the criminal buys the gun and breaks the law and the broken law is detected, it is ignored. When that same criminal does so again, it is ignored. And again. And again. Finally, at some point, when 50-100 guns have flowed into criminal networks, ATF might go arrest the guy and put a stop to it. Here's a hint, if ATF prosecutes that first straw purchase, that guy is now a felon and can't straw purchase again!

As for the first part, yes the GOP willfully minimizes the roadblocks to citizens utilizing their rights as codified in the second amendment. If you wish to restrict the rights of the free, you should be able to demonstrate that such restrictions would have a greater impact on the criminals than it would on the legal. Stop & Frisk reduced crime, but also hindered the individuals rights. Wouldn't removing the fourth amendment protections give a great boost to crime fighting?

I see you're aware of the gun megathread, but you don't seem to have read any of it to gain information, rather just taken your own views and reinforced them in spite of the discussions.

The broken law is not detected. In order for it to be detected you would have to check each individual gun buyer to see what they did with that gun. Thousands of guns are sold in the US per day. A straw purchaser may buy several guns before they're even used in a crime. Gun buyers are rarely checked on what they do with their guns. That takes proper legislation and resources. Most are probably just regular citizens who're keeping them at home. Would you like it if someone came to your home and checked to see if you still had your guns? Is there something special about a straw purchaser that makes them stand out?

We've amply demonstrated that criminals abuse the legal gun trade to obtain weapons. The GOP has more or less decided that its better if everyone's armed to the teeth.

The Gun Thread is mostly just a huge circle jerk of gun nuts posting anecdotal stories to justify their vigilante wet dreams. Occasionally some brave soul points out that gun nuts sometimes do stupid shit. Did Stephen Paddock really need to buy 22 AR-XX weapons? I guess its a plus that he didn't transfer them to the drug cartels.

PS There's no evidence that Stop and Frisk lowered crime.