Trump signs HK humans rights act

[urasim]

It would nice if maybe the US did something about its own human rights violations first[Gitmo, black sites, all its wars] before trying to play the world police again.

We should totally ignore the human rights violations that China is committing because YOU have a bias against the US. "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE US DOING SOME BAD STUFF!!!!" Whataboutism from a communist? NO WAY!!!

I'd rather have the US putting pressure on China than that communist shithole putting pressure on the rest of the world and killing and torturing innocent Muslims because of their faith. But I guess you're cool with that since you're also a communist.

[Ghostpanther]

Trump was considering not signing it, but then he was told it was unanimous and it would pass anyway, so he signed it and pretended to care about Hong Kong Democratic rights.

Before the usual suspects come in patting Trump on the back, can't really credit this to Trump since 1. It was penned and passed by both parties in the house and the Senate and had nothing to do with Trump other than his signature and 2. Trump didn't want to anger China more so he was considering not signing it, but did anyway, because he had to.

For the Trump haters, of course not! And no, he did not have to sign it. Sure it would have been vetoed. But one of Obama's veto once was overturned by Congress.

Personally, I feel it is important to remember Hong Kong belongs to China. Not saying the sanctions are a bad thing. But I am not convinced it will help that much. And could hurt any trade negotiations. Time will tell.

[JohnBrown1917]

We should totally ignore the human rights violations that China is committing because YOU have a bias against the US. "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE US DOING SOME BAD STUFF!!!!" Whataboutism from a communist? NO WAY!!!

I'd rather have the US putting pressure on China than that communist shithole putting pressure on the rest of the world and killing and torturing innocent Muslims because of their faith. But I guess you're cool with that since you're also a communist.

Its the US doing it bud, this is no whataboutism. They are not following the same standards they expect China they follow.


Maybe both of should care about human rights?
Nah.. that'll never happen.




And the US pretending to care about muslims is really the biggest joke, they are not even targetting different groups here.

[Dontrike]

Personally, I feel it is important to remember Hong Kong belongs to China. Not saying the sanctions are a bad thing. But I am not convinced it will help that much. And could hurt any trade negotiations. Time will tell.

Because Trump has been doing so well with the trade negotiations so far? At the very least this is a moral victory 'cause no way we are winning the trade war with China that Trump started for no reason.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Now we get to see all his defenders that said not doing this was the right thing and they support him do an about face and claim that this is exactly what should have been done all along.

[Underverse]

Its the US doing it bud, this is no whataboutism. They are not following the same standards they expect China they follow.


Maybe both of should care about human rights?
Nah.. that'll never happen.




And the US pretending to care about muslims is really the biggest joke, they are not even targetting different groups here.

The US isn't putting American muslims in camps and 'reeducating' them. Being at war with middle eastern nations is not the same thing, and neither is mulling a hijab ban or signing an executive order on travel bans from specific countries. Sure, it might be kind of shitty, but the magnitude of shittiness is not the same.

The broader issue here is that the US government is at least partially accountable to journalists and the people. There are no such checks in China, and the CCP can therefore do whatever it wants more or less without worrying about backlash from the mainland, political or otherwise. They've used propaganda, and sometimes fear ('disappearing' people, such as in Hong Kong even now) to cultivate nationalism on par with some of the most brutal, authoritarian, and destructive states in history. The products of these efforts are just starting to emerge and I'd be surprised if it didn't get much worse in the coming decades.

[JohnBrown1917]

The US isn't putting American muslims in camps and 'reeducating' them. Being at war with middle eastern nations is not the same thing, and neither is mulling a hijab ban or signing an executive order on travel bans from specific countries. Sure, it might be kind of shitty, but the magnitude of shittiness is not the same.

The broader issue here is that the US government is at least partially accountable to journalists and the people. There are no such checks in China, and the CCP can therefore do whatever it wants more or less without worrying about backlash from the mainland, political or otherwise. They've used propaganda, and sometimes fear ('disappearing' people, such as in Hong Kong even now) to cultivate nationalism on par with some of the most brutal, authoritarian, and destructive states in history. The products of these efforts are just starting to emerge and I'd be surprised if it didn't get much worse in the coming decades.

With the amount of deaths the US has caused in the middle east, it is exactly on the same level of horribleness.
And no concentration camps? Yeah, sure, the kids that are being put in them are not on the same level as the ones in China, but that still ignores Gitmo and CIA blacksites.

[Easo]

He is trying to sit on all chairs, playing all sides, as usual. Of course, he kinda didnt have a choice, as he could likely have lost the veto due to the overwhelming support for the act.

[Deldavala]

Anyone else find it amusing how these continuous attempts as misinformation and distorting the truth happens by the Chinese government and even some asian posters on this board just keep happening and nobody is falling for them?

"They are violent criminals! They put buildings on fire! They attack innocents!"

And then they release some clearly fake footage of 'protesters' beating up innocent civilians... and then of course - of course - it turns out a few days later those were chinese paid agents and not actual protesters.

These past few years have been a real eye opener into how everyone just tries to twist lies and truths until it suits them.

I wish these Hong Kong protesters all the best in the world.

The protesters have killed one guy though, and there has been several actual cases of protestors beating up civilians(like that Japanese guy they thought was a mainlander). That said, they are a minority and most of the protesters have been peaceful. I would like some of the spokespeople for the protesters actually condeming the attacks though, which they have not done as far as I recall. These acts of violence just fuels the division between the different camps in HK.

[Thepersona]

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/28/a...hnk/index.html

This was "passed almost unanimously by both houses of Congress." I think this will greatly hinder trade talks or any other future dealings between us and China.

Oh boy. It's a kind act but probably wasn't the best idea if The U.S. wants to improve things with China and Xi JinPing.

Neat. Now do it for Chile, Bolivia, Colombia, Iran, Iraq, et al

[JohnBrown1917]

Neat. Now do it for Chile, Bolivia, Colombia, Iran, Iraq, et al

But that just makes the coup they backed so hard go to waste!

[Dontrike]

The protesters have killed one guy though, and there has been several actual cases of protestors beating up civilians(like that Japanese guy they thought was a mainlander). That said, they are a minority and most of the protesters have been peaceful. I would like some of the spokespeople for the protesters actually condeming the attacks though, which they have not done as far as I recall. These acts of violence just fuels the division between the different camps in HK.

Now the Chinese government just has to do the same with the protestors they've killed. and who they threaten. Believe it or not in these scenarios people die and this minority does need to defend itself else they'd be done already and have lost.

[Muajin76]

The protesters have killed one guy though, and there has been several actual cases of protestors beating up civilians(like that Japanese guy they thought was a mainlander). That said, they are a minority and most of the protesters have been peaceful. I would like some of the spokespeople for the protesters actually condeming the attacks though, which they have not done as far as I recall. These acts of violence just fuels the division between the different camps in HK.

THere were also several cases of protesters grabbing innocent civilians off the subway and hitting them for no reason. No specific target, just pulling and beatin random people. T.T

- - - Updated - - -

Neat. Now do it for Chile, Bolivia, Colombia, Iran, Iraq, et al

haha sadly i don't know the relationship currently between the US and the first 3 countries. :P

[Kokolums]

this doesnt put any pressure on china. if anything it might highlight the weakening position of the us in the global community and thereby hasten a shift of nations away from the us sphere to chinas sphere. they can claim the us is becoming a paper tiger, passing a toothless resolution that does nothing to china.

[Mythic-RaidLead]

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/28/a...hnk/index.html

This was "passed almost unanimously by both houses of Congress." I think this will greatly hinder trade talks or any other future dealings between us and China.

Oh boy. It's a kind act but probably wasn't the best idea if The U.S. wants to improve things with China and Xi JinPing.

This is good news. China needs to stay out of the business of other countries. Hong Kong is a independent sovereign country of 8 million people. The United States should back Hong Kong militarily, including expanding the nuclear umbrella to protect this vulnerable nation.

[shadowmouse]

Welp, there we go with the world police gig again. In the moment, this is going to get popular support, but I don't have a lot of good feelings about where this will put us in a few more years.

[Edge-]

Welp, there we go with the world police gig again.

I think you're confused. This bill has nothing to do with the US military, or really anything. It's purely symbolic in nature, expressing support for the protesters.

What are we policing?

[shadowmouse]

This bill has nothing to do with the US military, or really anything. It's purely symbolic in nature, expressing support for the protesters.

Look at the actual language:

Shown Here:
Passed House (10/15/2019)

Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act of 2019

This bill addresses Hong Kong's status under U.S. law and imposes sanctions on those responsible for human rights violations in Hong Kong. (Hong Kong is part of China but has a largely separate legal and economic system.)

The Department of State shall certify annually to Congress as to whether Hong Kong warrants its unique treatment under various treaties, agreements, and U.S. law. The analysis shall evaluate whether Hong Kong is upholding the rule of law and protecting rights enumerated in various documents, including (1) the agreement between the United Kingdom and China regarding Hong Kong's return to China, and (2) the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

The bill extends existing annual reporting requirements on matters of U.S. interest in Hong Kong through 2027 and expands such reports to include assessments of (1) limits to Hong Kong's autonomy, either self-imposed or due to China's actions; and (2) whether rescission of Hong Kong's special treatment would further erode Hong Kong's autonomy.

The President shall annually report to Congress on Hong Kong's enforcement of U.S. export controls, including whether items of U.S. origin have been used for mass surveillance in China and whether Hong Kong has been used to evade sanctions on North Korea or Iran.

The State Department shall notify Congress if any proposed or enacted law in Hong Kong negatively impacts U.S. interests, including by putting U.S. citizens at risk of rendition to China.

The President shall impose property and visa-blocking sanctions on foreign persons responsible for gross human rights violations in Hong Kong.

Source: https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...ouse-bill/3289

It's a mess. It isn't purely symbolic, it is still a law. We've already seen, in this thread, what's coming. It starts with HK today, but where does the slippery slide end?

Also, consider that this happens at a time when the US is pardoning people for war crimes and blocking UN investigations -- but it invokes the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. We're big enough that can't really bite us in the ass the way it might another country, but simply by proving that point (being big enough to blow off the UN) it opens us up to looking like hypocrites or bullies.

What are we policing? Well, we've pass a law, we've set up reporting requirements, it would seem we think we are policing something. What though? That's one of the sticky details. Indeed, what? Is this support for HK and self determination? What is our standing to evaluate and punish based on an agreement between the UK and China? We aren't a party. Where is this going with "including whether items of U.S. origin have been used for mass surveillance in China and whether Hong Kong has been used to evade sanctions on North Korea or Iran"? While those may be concerns on their own, and even valid concerns, how is that gem a symbol of support for the stated cause of human rights and democracy *in Hong Kong*?

If I were to predict a probable next step, this opens the door for a bolder statement on Xinjiang, which draws us even further into another country's internal affairs. That comes at a price, as I noted above. The more we do that, the more we open the door to questions about ourselves, but we've already said we won't accept the UN or other countries taking actions against the US and its citizens.

I'm an old guy, I did my time in the Cold War. It was fought with proxies and rattling of sabers, but strictly in my personal opinion and with the very large sample size of one we were more effective through being an example of something people wanted to have a slice of. I feel like the more we have gone towards trying to set rules and enforce our opinions through military and economic threat, we have instead lost the support we had built up. We're spending our goodwill.

Edit: Let me just toss this out here as something I see being along the lines of what I'm talking about above

But Mexicans have broadly rejected Trump's push to designate cartels as terrorist groups, as well as his earlier offer on Twitter for the US to help Mexico "wage WAR on the drug cartels and wipe them off the face of the earth."

The remark on "designating" cartels came in response to a question from conservative media host Bill O'Reilly, who asked whether Trump would react to the Mormon massacre by adding the groups to the blacklist and "hitting them with drones."

"I don't want to say what I'm going to do, but they will be designated," Trump said.

Any hint of US intervention, military or otherwise, is an instant insult to national pride in Mexico, which still resents losing more than half its territory to the United States in 1848 after the Mexican-American War -- just one on a long list of grievances.

Foreign Minister Marcelo Ebrard huffed at a "violation of national sovereignty" after Trump's statement.

Even Lopez Obrador, who has tried to maintain a relationship of "peace and love" with Trump, responded, "cooperation yes, interventionism no."

Source: https://news.yahoo.com/backlash-mexi...215007036.html

[Edge-]

I'm still missing the "world police" part. This is a routine, symbolic measure that sound a lot more serious than they ever really are.

[Muajin76]

I'm still missing the "world police" part. This is a routine, symbolic measure that sound a lot more serious than they ever really are.

Trump is risking China's ire by signing this bill. This should have been done by the U.K. but that's just me.
So if we lose any hope with China, the only asian power we'd be allies with is Japan. Now that South Korea will mostly want to break ties with us over Washington asking for a shit ton of $$ a year for keeping our forces over there and looking for either North Korea or China to be new best buds.