Why did WoD fail so hard even though Siege of Orgrimmar lasted for 2 years?

[FelPlague]

Except if this was the case then they lied. When it was later announced Tanaan would not make it into launch they stated this had always been the plan. So if like what you're saying is correct, they planned for launch and it just didn't make it, then they outright lied when they said it had always been planned to come later. So your own explanation makes Blizzard liars, so you're just supporting my argument here.



Again, my problem on this particular issue isn't THAT Tanaan was delayed, yes that happens, it was the COMMUNICATION surrounding it. Blizzard either mislead us originally or lied about it later. THAT is my problem, not Tanaan being delayed.

got sources on that? are you sure you didnt confuse "you will visit tannan jungle in the intro scenario, but wont return there till a later patch"

[Elestia]

Like you must not remember or didn't play it.


That being said, the most time I've spent away from the game was MoP during SoO, being away for about 1 year. Same after clearing BRF before HFC. I think I took a hiatus post heroic clear of HFC and still full cleared mythic when I came back.


I think WoD lack of content and the long amounts of time that happened BOTH AROUND AND DURING WOD are not at all a coincidence.

Nor do I think the poor gameplay mechanics of BfA make any sense for anything coming after Legion -- it's more than obvious that BfA was supposed to come before Legion but Blizz goofed up enough that they had to be swapped. This means that Blizz will do everything in their power to avoid another WoD catastrophe. Hence all the artistic polish and environmental quality of BfA.


Now here we are where the next chosen project is Shadowlands -- literally the least developed candidate expansion they have ever attempted. The scary thing is that they're going for a one shot development with no fallback like Legion while also trying to never do a WoD development stallout.

[Enthusiastic Steward]

got sources on that? are you sure you didnt confuse "you will visit tannan jungle in the intro scenario, but wont return there till a later patch"

https://gameranx.com/updates/id/2275...ngle-revealed/
https://warcraft.blizzplanet.com/blo...-another-world
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxhW5OUBIiE
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...raenor_launch/

I'm trying to find the Blizzcon announcement video, but here are two articles from around the time the expansion was announced talking about Tanaan, no mention of the main zone being planned for a later patch which. Also are some sources from around the time later when it became known Tanaan would be delayed talking about it as a delay, unknown previously, so it's not just 'me confusing' there was plenty of confusion and frustration at the time.

Since we're on that topic do you have a source from the original WoD announcement stating Tanaan was planned to be released in a later patch? The only things I can find are from July of '14 when the expansion was announced in Nov of '13. Nothing from around Blizzcon indicates Tanaan was planned to come later.

[FelPlague]

https://gameranx.com/updates/id/2275...ngle-revealed/
https://warcraft.blizzplanet.com/blo...-another-world
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxhW5OUBIiE
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...raenor_launch/

I'm trying to find the Blizzcon announcement video, but here are two articles from around the time the expansion was announced talking about Tanaan, no mention of the main zone being planned for a later patch which. Also are some sources from around the time later when it became known Tanaan would be delayed talking about it as a delay, unknown previously, so it's not just 'me confusing' there was plenty of confusion and frustration at the time.

First i see
"Your first steps into Draenor will be within the wilds of Tanaan Jungle"
which was and still is true, you enter into tannan jungle at the start.
the rest of this seems to echo that, it mentions "you come here at the start, then will come back here later" but dont specify when.

[justandulas]

WoD is the worst wow expansion, altho BfA is giving it a close run for its money

The amount of planned content that never existed in Bfa, or was outright a lie is staggering. Blizz talked a big game for wod and delivered almost nothing

Even garrisons are about the sorriest excuse for mmo player housing I’ve ever seen. By far the worst housing in the mmo market

[Enthusiastic Steward]

First i see
"Your first steps into Draenor will be within the wilds of Tanaan Jungle"
which was and still is true, you enter into tannan jungle at the start.
the rest of this seems to echo that, it mentions "you come here at the start, then will come back here later" but dont specify when.

Right, they don't specify. The general understanding was that you would do the intro in Tanaan and come back at max level and Tanaan would be part of the launch zones. This was the general understanding because there was nothing from Blizzard to indicate otherwise, but they DID talk about another zone that would be coming later. Why would they mention one zone in a later patch and not the other? A slip-up? Then why wait 8 MONTHS to correct it?

The other option is like you said, it was planned but then delayed, which from the videos and threads at the time was the general impression pretty much everyone had. Which is fine. Sucks but happens. But then Blizzard stated it was always planned to come later. If that were true they wouldn't have needed to make the announcement "Hey guys Tanaan won't be in at launch sorry." because that should have been communicated well before, or their initial statement should have been "As planned all along Tanaan will not be in at launch."

[MoanaLisa]

Right, they don't specify. The general understanding was that you would do the intro in Tanaan and come back at max level and Tanaan would be part of the launch zones. This was the general understanding because there was nothing from Blizzard to indicate otherwise, but they DID talk about another zone that would be coming later. Why would they mention one zone in a later patch and not the other? A slip-up? Then why wait 8 MONTHS to correct it?

The other option is like you said, it was planned but then delayed, which from the videos and threads at the time was the general impression pretty much everyone had. Which is fine. Sucks but happens. But then Blizzard stated it was always planned to come later. If that were true they wouldn't have needed to make the announcement "Hey guys Tanaan won't be in at launch sorry." because that should have been communicated well before, or their initial statement should have been "As planned all along Tanaan will not be in at launch."

None of that adds up to "Blizzard lied" about Tanaan, no matter how much you want it to. General understandings, general impressions...that's not factual.

[msdos]

Cata is the expansion where you stopped being able to kill people in PVP because they quadrupled healthpools. They also wrecked the old world. The playerbase simply plummets from there on out.

What games begin to trend? Fast paced PVP like DOTA, LoL, CS:GO, CoD, Battlefield. People simply want dominant PVP action. They don't want to tap dance and tippy toe with people and joust for 30 minutes just for a sloppy, anti-climactic kill, that isn't fun or interesting and Blizzard needs to figure this out quickly, they're way too stubborn.

[Relapses]

Like you must not remember or didn't play it.


That being said, the most time I've spent away from the game was MoP during SoO, being away for about 1 year. Same after clearing BRF before HFC. I think I took a hiatus post heroic clear of HFC and still full cleared mythic when I came back.


I think WoD lack of content and the long amounts of time that happened BOTH AROUND AND DURING WOD are not at all a coincidence.

Nor do I think the poor gameplay mechanics of BfA make any sense for anything coming after Legion -- it's more than obvious that BfA was supposed to come before Legion but Blizz goofed up enough that they had to be swapped. This means that Blizz will do everything in their power to avoid another WoD catastrophe. Hence all the artistic polish and environmental quality of BfA.


Now here we are where the next chosen project is Shadowlands -- literally the least developed candidate expansion they have ever attempted. The scary thing is that they're going for a one shot development with no fallback like Legion while also trying to never do a WoD development stallout.

Wha... Am I reading this correct? Not only do you think that BfA was supposed to come before Legion but that Shadowlands is underdeveloped with no "fallback"? (what)

[Enthusiastic Steward]

None of that adds up to "Blizzard lied" about Tanaan, no matter how much you want it to.

Well it depends on which option is the actual truth. If it was planned for launch and then delayed, then Blizzard lied when they said it was always planned to be in a patch.

The other option was they were deliberately misleading by not mentioning it as coming in a later patch. Given that they discussed Farahlon as coming in a future patch there's not really the excuse that "Tanaan will also be in a future patch" just slipped their minds. And given that it was 8 months before this was clarified I'd call that deliberate. Yes you can technically call that off as 'not a lie' but it was deceitful so I'ma go with my theatrics and just call it a lie. It's shorter than deliberately misleading.

Here's the Twitter post where it came out.
https://twitter.com/CM_Lore/status/492417961466949633 People were clearly caught off guard and Tanaan not being an endgame launch zone was clearly not communicated between Blizzcon in Nov '13 and Jul '14. If the plan to not include it was in fact the plan from the get go that's a loooong time to not mention it, especially with a passionate and vocal playerbase.

[Relapses]

Cata is the expansion where you stopped being able to kill people in PVP because they quadrupled healthpools. They also wrecked the old world. The playerbase simply plummets from there on out.

What games begin to trend? Fast paced PVP like DOTA, LoL, CS:GO, CoD, Battlefield. People simply want dominant PVP action. They don't want to tap dance and tippy toe with people and joust for 30 minutes just for a sloppy, anti-climactic kill, that isn't fun or interesting and Blizzard needs to figure this out quickly, they're way too stubborn.

Ah yes, and if Blizzard had just listened to its playerbase WoW would have 200 million active subscribers today! Dang man, that's some big brain shit.

[apples]

Cata is the expansion where you stopped being able to kill people in PVP because they quadrupled healthpools. They also wrecked the old world. The playerbase simply plummets from there on out.

What games begin to trend? Fast paced PVP like DOTA, LoL, CS:GO, CoD, Battlefield. People simply want dominant PVP action. They don't want to tap dance and tippy toe with people and joust for 30 minutes just for a sloppy, anti-climactic kill, that isn't fun or interesting and Blizzard needs to figure this out quickly, they're way too stubborn.

LoL got big a year before cata got going, DOTA had been around for literally a decade, cs:go used to be just called cs, and it was way past its prime in 2010.

i guess your point is that people who played wow mass migrated onto playing Call of Duty

XD

[sam86]

u seriously asking that now?
anyway
the worst part was probably selfie patch, patch 6.1, a 'major' patch that even blizz own employees weren't sure to call it patch or not
it introduced a raid that was tested way back in beta (BRF) that ppl were wondering since game launch where is it, and selfie cam
again an entire major patch introduced literally only seflie cam toy and interact with twitter as new content
even vanilla major patches had more work done in them
Let's not forget the cat and mouse way of talk about flying in wod, where some official blizz employees say they will introduce it later, and other - again official blizz employees, not some random dude on net like me - swear there won't be flying in wod

[msdos]

Ah yes, and if Blizzard had just listened to its playerbase WoW would have 200 million active subscribers today! Dang man, that's some big brain shit.

I didn't imply that, you just made it up lol.

LoL got big a year before cata got going, DOTA had been around for literally a decade, cs:go used to be just called cs, and it was way past its prime in 2010.

i guess your point is that people who played wow mass migrated onto playing Call of Duty

XD

All I said was trending, I didn't say everyone migrated over. DOTA 2 didn't exist for a decade, LoL trended upwards, so you just repeated what I just said and CS:GO kept getting adapted, that means it was trending, otherwise it would've just stayed at 1.6, herpy derpy derpy derps and people still play it even though it's "way past its prime"?

So like are you agreeing or disagreeing with me that people want good PVP? All you did was repeat what I said in mockery then type ecks DEE.

[FelPlague]

Cata is the expansion where you stopped being able to kill people in PVP because they quadrupled healthpools. They also wrecked the old world. The playerbase simply plummets from there on out.

What games begin to trend? Fast paced PVP like DOTA, LoL, CS:GO, CoD, Battlefield. People simply want dominant PVP action. They don't want to tap dance and tippy toe with people and joust for 30 minutes just for a sloppy, anti-climactic kill, that isn't fun or interesting and Blizzard needs to figure this out quickly, they're way too stubborn.

what...?
This obviously comes from someone who hasnt pvped in wow.
"Killign someone takes forever" i can chunk people down in 7 seconds with good lineup if we are able to cc their healer.
yes in areanas combat takes long, but thats because arena is just that, 1 fight and then its over.
all those games you list, dont have that, dota, lol, cs:go, cod, battlefield, you have a large arena with objectives, and combat is usually quick.
just like in BG's, in BG's unless you are a tank or healer, you can quickly get chunked, or chunk someone down, but the entire battle takes a long time.
you act like 1v1 combat takes minutes, and in a game like wow's pvp where a death means its over, being able ot kill people in 1-2 seconds would be absolute bullshit.
and in BG's you cant do that, because unlike in battlefield, lol, and dota, you dont have the MASSIVE maps with AI or mass players to hold people off, meaning that 1 death does not mean much.

In LOL if all your players die at once, they dont just win, cause they need to get throguh towers and minions into your base, meaning there is stuff to hold them off.
but in battlegrounds if your entire team wipes, flag is grabed and its over, cause there is no way you can get it at that point.

yes they could acheive that fast kill, but it would need to be in 40v40 bgs, or it would need to have long term objectives, or minions to protect objectives.
Also no one likes being the target of a 1-2 second kill, being unable to prevent it, which the thing is in stuff like moba's and FPS, you can change tatics.
in lol and dota you can level up to make sure they arnt ahead, you can change items to counter them
in cod, cs:go, battlefield you can change class, change weapons, perks, etc, all mid fight.

wow you cannot, you are locked in, and there is no "levels" so there is no way to counter an opponent who curb stomps your current build.

so to have a combat system where "you die in 1-2 seconds" you cannot lock people into specific builds, cause you need to give them a chance to change that style, so that they dont die as quick
but with FPS they change this into fast respawn timers


there is just so many reasons why wow cannot and should not have "1-2" second to kill counters, that would require a massive change to the games pvp style to acheive anything close, and at that point you might aswell play another game.

an MMORPG is far different then a Moba, and an FPS, you cant say "well just do what this does" no, cause you cant. they are very different genre.

[MoanaLisa]

On topic: It failed because if you didn't raid, you had very little to do that involved riding out into the world and swinging your damage stick at things.

If you raided on a regular basis it was an OK expansion.

Contrary to popular belief, most players are not regular raiders at an organized level. So for many, many players the expansion was pretty much a wasteland.

[msdos]

I'm not reading all that you just posted bro.

I also do not read stuff that begins with "oh you obviously never PVPed or played WoW". I've been playing since beta and I don't need to prove it anymore. My post history is here for 10 years, my armory is up, I play and have played the game.

You've gotta be crazy to think I'm reading all that with no punctuation and no capitalization, LMAO, GET BENT and put on ignore!!

[korijenkins]

Little to do in the game, plus Blizzard had a really bad habit for a while of making the final enemies you face in an xpac the main enemies of the next one.

In my experience, a year of fighting Orcs in a raid, then spending an expansion fighting them makes for a dull experience. Same applies to Legion afterwards, with the final enemies of WoD being demons, and then being the main enemy of Legion. Legion, however, felt much less dull because the first two raids were not entirely occupied by demons and the first demon raid didn't come until Tomb.

[Relapses]

I didn't imply that, you just made it up lol.



All I said was trending, I didn't say everyone migrated over. DOTA 2 didn't exist for a decade, LoL trended upwards, so you just repeated what I just said and CS:GO kept getting adapted, that means it was trending, otherwise it would've just stayed at 1.6, herpy derpy derpy derps and people still play it even though it's "way past its prime"?

So like are you agreeing or disagreeing with me that people want good PVP? All you did was repeat what I said in mockery then type ecks DEE.

You implied quadrupled health pools and shitty PvP correlated with subscriber losses. I simply took the opposite of your implication to its natural conclusion. If those bastards at Blizzard had never fucked with PvP nobody would have ever quit WoW and we'd be banking at Blizzard's credit union since they'd have more money than Jeff Bezos. All hail your glorious foresight!

[msdos]

You implied quadrupled health pools and shitty PvP correlated with subscriber losses. I simply took the opposite of your implication to its natural conclusion. If those bastards at Blizzard had never fucked with PvP nobody would have ever quit WoW and we'd be banking at Blizzard's credit union since they'd have more money than Jeff Bezos. All hail your glorious foresight!

Healthpools did skyrocket though, change quadruple to whatever works for you. It's just a speculation, why are you acting so snarky over it? They killed pvp, the playerbase went down, other PVP games trended, so maybe PVP had something to do with it? That's all I'm saying, good lord, you can stop puppy guarding my posts now.