Umm new talents? Pepperidge Farm Remembers

[Daedius]

They made a baseline ability since the beginning (SW: Death) into a talent, and Legion Artifact abilities into a talent...

But hey, we're getting back some "meh" abilities back in Shadowlands as though it's a selling highlight of it!

[Nathanyel]

While new talent rows have felt great (Feral grew massively from the shitty Vanilla design in BC and WotLK) it only raises more problems than it solves to have an unending growth of rows. MoP addressed the unnecessary bloat of points which some people still prefer, simply for the artificial joy of putting some dozen points to reach one specific talent.
While I believe more Legion abilities should have been implemented as talents, with replaced slots moving to baseline, it makes little sense to add rows just to add rows.

Regarding current Azerite pieces, I expect them to receive some secondary stats in 9.0, as well as one of their neutral traits as an Equip effect.

[bryroo]

If they added more talents it would only mean a talent squish in an expansion or two. The Warcraft playerbase cant handle large numbers.

[Kralljin]

I understand that Blizzard cannot add a new row every new expansion, powercreep is an issue that needs to be taken serious.

However, then making previously baseline abilities as talents feels like a cheap shot.
Or at the very least, add another option to each talent row, that you're not getting necessarily more powerful but at least have more choices.

I don't know, i just miss getting new stuff with an expansion, even if it's just having an additional option to existing choices rather having a new "choice".

[therealstegblob]

LOL, hardly. I had quite a bit of fun collecting them and using them to crush people on meters during raids and in WPVP. I can think of a dozen things that had more of a negative impact on the game than Legiondaries, but that's not the topic here. Sounds like you just had a lot of bad luck.

I do miss getting new talents! One of my favorite things about expansions used to be reading what the tier set bonuses would be and what new talents we'd be getting. And now none of that happens anymore, and people "wonder" why the game is losing players. They're taking all the cool shit out and inserting turn-n-burn systems each expansion.

Are Legiondaries the single worst idea ever? No, not quite. But arguing such a semantic is stupid. They were a shitty idea.

I got Master Assassin's Mantle and the Ravenholdt ring on my Rogue only mere days after picking him up again later in Legion. I was absolutely destroying people in WPVP and they were both BiS legendaries for PvE. Does this mean I think the legendaries weren't a stupid idea and badly implemented? No, it doesn't. I had a lot of fun with them, but I can see them for what they were.

Legiondaries are among one of the worst things they've ever done, easily.

[Unholyground]

What does Blizzard love more than creating new things? Removing stuff.

Removing stuff then adding it back in as talents, and then removing those back into regular abilities and bring old ones from other expansions. We honestly need multi-classing in WoW it is about time.

[Shadowsgrace]

[GreenJesus]

legion had artefact and the 7.3 system,bfa has azerite and essences,and shadowlands will bring a bunch of new thing to classes

That will all go away in the next expansion and doesnt even relate to the class at all. Yeh wow.. my paladin now can hit the enemy with an arcane blast. But only for 2 patches! That really built up my class!

[Hyral]

Well yes, definitely. You are entitled to feel however you see fit.
But as a company, they care about making money, not about your fun. Ion has stated their only metric is fun, but can you concur?
World of Warcraft is already a product consumers want to consume, making more with less is likely their current approach. And if something makes them lose money they will definitely revert that, but does it seems they want to revert this, specifically? No, right? Then they don't care. Best you can do is file a feedback report through their official channels and move on with your life.

Most people will probably still buy Shadowlands regardless of the "no new talent uh", so well, I'm entitled to feel admiration on how much they can cut corners and still have their fans paying for it.

I'm not concerned with how much they want to make money, nor am I'm saying they should care about making things fun for us. The focus of my argument wasn't about what I expect their intentions or artistic integrity to be, rather that a consumer saying "their design makes their lives easier so we shouldn't complain" is worrisome to me. If someone isn't being entertained with a product that is supposed to be entertaining, no matter how well designed it is in the perspective of the designer themselves, that someone is perfectly within reason to complain.

Honestly you are already agreeing to that with your post. It was your snarky comment earlier implying we shouldn't complain that seems unfitting to your stance now.

As for WoW as a product, it's always going to sell regardless of quality. A fool and their money are soon parted. But that's another topic.

You should care about design as a consumer.

Hell you do, you just don't really think about it.

Think the difference between an original iPhone and a palm pilot in terms of design. One has a full clickable keyboard, the other had just a 3 buttons and a single switch. That was a design decision that led to better form factor and features. Yet there were tons of people that said "I can't believe they are getting rid of my keyboard!"

Every time you download a new UI you're making a design decision as well.

I can tell you right now that for many people the game is better through the design decisions that have lowered the number of buttons but in most - not all - cases made which button you press when that much more important. That's the entire mentality behind the Azerite gear, was behind the legion legendaries and artifact weapon and even the legendary ring from WoD.

It has most definitely taken away part of the feeling of personal power progression when hitting max level, but they've stated that they want each expansion to be seen as a game unto itself and want to leave the progression systems behind when they introduce a new expansion.

I always care about design, I believe in responsible consumerism and prefer to spend my hard earned money on things that seem worthwhile or have quality while it seems most consumers have become complacent and are happy to throw money at something with little thought into it. So yes I wish more consumers cared about design. Care about it from a consumer perspective instead of a "designer perspective."

But context is everything though and I'm afraid maybe I didn't convey it well on my first post but my reply to that person above should make it more clear, though I've no doubt there'll be something to disagree with there. I believe a consumer should be concerned about how to get the most out of their money, not concerned about how a company can get the most money out of the least effort.

[Black Goat]

Are Legiondaries the single worst idea ever? No, not quite. But arguing such a semantic is stupid. They were a shitty idea.

I liked Legiondaries. You didn't. That isn't semantics, that's an opinion. And yes, opinions can be argued if you one chooses.

I thought they were a great idea that kept me playing well after content was consumed because I wanted the good ones on my alts. End of discussion, it's off-topic.

[Kithelle]

Feels weird to me that barely anyone ever notices/complains about the lack of new talents.

(WoD)
Blizz: Here guys your new max level talents, have fun!
Everyone: Yaaaay

(Legion)
Blizz: Yeah nah...

(BfA)
Blizz: -pokerface-

(Shadowlands)
Blizz: Just gonna drop the maxlvl so nobody notices, no talents for you lil shits since 2014 lmaooo.

Is it really not a big deal that after lvl 100 you lose identity with your class and stop feeling rewarded while leveling because you stop looking forward for that new badass improving talent? smh

Who knows if we will or not, besides the Devs themselves...we don't know if they will keep the same type of talents or go back to a oldschool talent tree since copying Classic seems to be a goal

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Because we'd be back to square one, we can't just add new talents forever, balance would get absurd, PVP included. I don't think there is some easy answer here.

[Shelly]

I always care about design, I believe in responsible consumerism and prefer to spend my hard earned money on things that seem worthwhile or have quality while it seems most consumers have become complacent and are happy to throw money at something with little thought into it. So yes I wish more consumers cared about design. Care about it from a consumer perspective instead of a "designer perspective."

But context is everything though and I'm afraid maybe I didn't convey it well on my first post but my reply to that person above should make it more clear, though I've no doubt there'll be something to disagree with there. I believe a consumer should be concerned about how to get the most out of their money, not concerned about how a company can get the most money out of the least effort.

Fair enough, thank you for clarifying.

Anyway, they have given their justifications as avoiding bloat - button, talent, ability, etc. That the more stuff that's carried forward from an expansion the more complicated the game becomes for both the designer and the consumer.

Many people, still, take offense to that. They think it's an example of Blizz taking the easy way out and not thinking about how things are going to be a few years down the road.

I mean I know people that absolutely LOVE Fury warrior from MoP and I loathe it precisely because of button bloat. After a while the abilities can become too obtuse and priorities too complicated or having specific steps that if not done in the exact right order result in massive loss of dps. For them to try and avoid that is designing with the consumer in mind as well as attempting to "future-proof" the game.

Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong, either way no one will ever be fully happy with the choices they have made.

[Nerovar]

That will all go away in the next expansion and doesnt even relate to the class at all. Yeh wow.. my paladin now can hit the enemy with an arcane blast. But only for 2 patches! That really built up my class!

That's a really good summary of what's wrong with their current model of class progression.

[Relapses]

LOL, hardly. I had quite a bit of fun collecting them and using them to crush people on meters during raids and in WPVP. I can think of a dozen things that had more of a negative impact on the game than Legiondaries, but that's not the topic here. Sounds like you just had a lot of bad luck.

I do miss getting new talents! One of my favorite things about expansions used to be reading what the tier set bonuses would be and what new talents we'd be getting. And now none of that happens anymore, and people "wonder" why the game is losing players. They're taking all the cool shit out and inserting turn-n-burn systems each expansion.

Luck is a terrible thing to force on players who are trying to play competitively. The Legendary grind coupled with AP just burned me out of the game. Blizzard made it abundantly clear they were not interested in players who were looking to raid log. And that's fine. The game shifted to a demographic I wasn't able to participate in so I quit. (I've since returned.) It still doesn't change my opinion of early Legion as being one of the most miserable times I've ever played WoW.

[Nnyco]

Spotted the Legion fan.

For the record, Legiondaries were the single shittiest idea Blizzard ever introduced into this game.

The way to obtain em - yes, but the legiondaries themself were a great system that allowed alot of customization.

[Relapses]

The way to obtain em - yes, but the legiondaries themself were a great system that allowed alot of customization.

I agree. Conceptually Legiondaries were fine but the fact that some people literally had to obtain more than a dozen Legendaries before getting the one they wanted is absolutely insane. It wasn't the items themselves that made them an issue. It was the power of the items coupled with the absolutely stupid fucking way they were obtained. Hopefully the Legendaries in SL are more deterministic.

[clevin]

While new talent rows have felt great (Feral grew massively from the shitty Vanilla design in BC and WotLK) it only raises more problems than it solves to have an unending growth of rows.

No one is saying add 50 new spells but if Blizzard can't add new spells every 10 levels (when things are at 120) they should find new jobs.

[deenman]

That will all go away in the next expansion and doesnt even relate to the class at all. Yeh wow.. my paladin now can hit the enemy with an arcane blast. But only for 2 patches! That really built up my class!

how were legion artefacts and the azerite gear not class related?they were the most class related features in the games history,but yeah i guess i agree that shadowlands kinda feels empty atm

[GreenJesus]

how were legion artefacts and the azerite gear not class related?they were the most class related features in the games history,but yeah i guess i agree that shadowlands kinda feels empty atm

I'm talking about BFA specifically. Legion focused on spec identity so hard that now classes barely even share anything between specs. The other problem was class halls where Blood elf or tauren paladins are now Silver Hand Paladins... lol