Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

I can't see how anyone would give this movie anything over 2 stars.

[Darththeo]

Oh come on. This is silly now. lol.

That's my point. It's literally your argument against Rey.

[Slybak]

Star Wars sales were down in 2017 too, with the tentpole release that you're riding so vigorously.

There was a bigger drop in 2016. Did Rogue One ruin Star Wars?

When its causing damage to the 4 billion dollar purchase he made? Yeah. Do you not see the value of tracking public opinion of your product based on social media?

Looking at YouTube videos isn't "tracking public opinion." Corporations do that through surveys and focus groups, not randomly checking Reddit.

You realize gross and net are different things right? TLJ's net profit was $417 million, you'll need need a lot more of those to pay off the $4 billion investment.

You realize that net profit is more than just ticket sales against production and marketing costs, right? You're not factoring in home media sales, licensing, film-specific merchandise sales, participations and residuals, etc. The financial reporting has already concluded that Disney recouped its investment and was making more than a healthy cash-on-cash return, and that reporting was from over a year ago.

The asked Johnson to helm it before they even saw the public reaction to The Last Jedi, this means nothing. Then they got Abrams to do it and it shits all over TLJ, do you seriously think they would have allowed Abrams to do that if they didn't see the way the wind was blowing?

They also asked Abrams to do it before they saw this massive "public backlash," too. The reason they asked him to do it because the logical first choice said no, and he was the logical second choice.

Nothing about how Disney runs its business suggests that they micromanage individual film projects at the script-level. Kennedy fired Lord and Miller, for example, because they were going over time and over budget on Solo. They "parted ways" with Treverrow because, based on the most verifiable reporting, the constant rewrites going on with his version of IX left them with the impression that they weren't going to make a 2019 release. That's what matters to producers, not whether the contrived reveal of the contents of some Mystery Box is checked off.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Just realized something that's REALLY stupid they repeated for nostalgia.
After Rey kisses Kylo she declares herself a Skywalker
How FUCKING stupid is that? She's now his fucking cousin/sister.

[Nefarious Tea]

"Mary Sue" is a phrase that's gotten too elastic these days, sure, but it's a bit too useful as a short-hand description of why Rey's a terrible character. She has no "hero's journey" in the first two movies. It's hard to care about her. The third movie TRIES so hard to make up for the lack of work done by the first two movies.

The issue is that most people just don't know what mary sue means. Rey is one, 100%. She's highly skilled in everything, with no negatives to balance it out.

But, the brainwashed and misogynist right calls Rey a mary sue not because of what mary sue means, but because to them any woman with successes is a mary sue.

So the brainwashed and misandrist left dismiss out of hand the arguments of anyone who calls Rey a mary sue, because a) anyone who calls mary sue must be a bigot due to the above, or b) they think that being sad or unhappy is enough of a negative character trait to balance out unrealistic levels of skill, often without training. (Incidentally, at least ROS makes it clear that there's been a fair time jump since TLJ and that Rey has been training for months.)

Rey's biggest problem however (at least to me) is that she spends much of the sequel trilogy losing her temper:

She gets mad on starkiller base, allowing her to stalemate Kylo Ren (at least this one makes sense because the dark side is a path to quick, but corruptive strength in the force)

She gets mad on Ach-to and somehow defeats luke in a fight, then goes into an area of heavy dark side presence, despite being specifically told to stay away because nothing good will come of it. And nothing good comes of it.

she gets mad at the practice droid and hacks several trees to pieces and finally utterly demolishes it, including damaging BB-8

she gets mad and ends up losing control, causing a huge blast of force lightning which destroys an entire troop transport

she gets mad and makes so many mistakes fighting Kylo Ren on the death star wreckage that he [I]would have killed her[/I] were it not for the interruption by Leia.

ROS especially sets up that Rey should be falling to the Dark Side at a breakneck pace but for some reason isn't. In the frame of Star Wars world building and narrative design, the biggest reason for me that Rey is a mary sue is that she never is even tempted by the Dark Side.

[Elim Garak]

Just realized something that's REALLY stupid they repeated for nostalgia.
After Rey kisses Kylo she declares herself a Skywalker
How FUCKING stupid is that? She's now his fucking cousin/sister.

Adopted sister, they are not related. Not so stupid now?

[Slybak]

So no accounting for interest, advertising, etc? The figures I've seen have it losing 200-400m

Losing? No. When you count just ticket sales against production and advertising, TLJ generated a net profit of around $420m. Solo is the one that lost money. And if you want make the accounting more complicated, you have to do it with every other movie in the rankings, too, which would still preserves the order: It still had a slightly higher net box office revenue than the live-action Beauty and the Beast and a slightly lower net box office revenue than Black Panther, because these movies all have very similar costs.

[Elim Garak]

The issue is that most people just don't know what mary sue means. Rey is one, 100%. She's highly skilled in everything, with no negatives to balance it out.

Nice, the issue is of course that most people jsut don't know what mary sue means. Rey is not one, 100% and YOU have just proved it, see below

Rey's biggest problem however (at least to me) is that she spends much of the sequel trilogy losing her temper:

She gets mad on starkiller base, allowing her to stalemate Kylo Ren (at least this one makes sense because the dark side is a path to quick, but corruptive strength in the force)

She gets mad on Ach-to and somehow defeats luke in a fight, then goes into an area of heavy dark side presence, despite being specifically told to stay away because nothing good will come of it. And nothing good comes of it.

she gets mad at the practice droid and hacks several trees to pieces and finally utterly demolishes it, including damaging BB-8

she gets mad and ends up losing control, causing a huge blast of force lightning which destroys an entire troop transport

she gets mad and makes so many mistakes fighting Kylo Ren on the death star wreckage that he [I]would have killed her[/I] were it not for the interruption by Leia.

ROS especially sets up that Rey should be falling to the Dark Side at a breakneck pace but for some reason isn't. In the frame of Star Wars world building and narrative design,

See? She's negatives. She has issues.

But boy let's see your mental loop loop in on itself

the biggest reason for me that Rey is a mary sue is that she never is even tempted by the Dark Side.

You've just listed all the times she was tempted... and then conclude she never is.

[Darththeo]

You've just listed all the times she was tempted... and then conclude she never is.

He is also ignoring that Rey almost willing turned herself to the Dark Side in order to stop the Emperor killing her friends.
He is also ignoring Rey originally wanting to kill the Emperor for revenge for killing her parents.

[Slybak]

Nice, the issue is of course that most people jsut don't know what mary sue means. Rey is not one, 100% and YOU have just proved it, see below

See? She's negatives. She has issues.

Yes. Specifically, the term Mary Sue is taken specifically from a parody created by Paula Smith who was satirizing really bad Star Trek fan-fiction:

"Gee, golly, gosh, gloriosky," thought Mary Sue as she stepped on the bridge of the Enterprise. "Here I am, the youngest lieutenant in the fleet - only fifteen and a half years old." Captain Kirk came up to her.

"Oh, Lieutenant, I love you madly. Will you come to bed with me?" "Captain! I am not that kind of girl!" "You're right, and I respect you for it. Here, take over the ship for a minute while I go get some coffee for us." Mr. Spock came onto the bridge. "What are you doing in the command seat, Lieutenant?" "The Captain told me to." "Flawlessly logical. I admire your mind."

Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy and Mr. Scott beamed down with Lt. Mary Sue to Rigel XXXVII. They were attacked by green androids and thrown into prison. In a moment of weakness Lt. Mary Sue revealed to Mr. Spock that she too was half Vulcan. Recovering quickly, she sprung the lock with her hairpin and they all got away back to the ship.

But back on board, Dr. McCoy and Lt. Mary Sue found out that the men who had beamed down were seriously stricken by the jumping cold robbies, Mary Sue less so. While the four officers languished in Sick Bay, Lt. Mary Sue ran the ship, and ran it so well she received the Nobel Peace Prize, the Vulcan Order of Gallantry and the Tralfamadorian Order of Good Guyhood.

However the disease finally got to her and she fell fatally ill. In the Sick Bay as she breathed her last, she was surrounded by Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Mr. Scott, all weeping unashamedly at the loss of her beautiful youth and youthful beauty, intelligence, capability and all around niceness. Even to this day her birthday is a national holiday of the Enterprise.

[StarDog]

I spend a lot of time thinking about symbols and metaphors. I think they are vitally important for storytelling. They create meaning and context to the objects we see. They drive characters and narratives. Watching TRoS, I'm given to think that all 4 (!!) writers don't know how to use symbols. Or why they're important. Or like... what the even are.

To wit: Kylo Ren's mask.

Throughout TFA and TLJ, I thought Kylo Ren was an absolutely pitch-perfect villain. He was violent and evil, but it all came from a deeply wounded place. He had depth without being sympathetic. An inwardly focused rage monster. A perfect foil to Rey's outward looking hope.

He's a man obsessed with Legacy. Running from the one he rejected, desperately clawing for the one he thinks he wants. Remember that "Kylo Ren" is an assumed name. It's a character. A fiction. A fabricated personality to replace Ben Solo. This man doesn't want to be a Solo. He wants to be a Skywalker. He wants to be Darth Vader. He's obsessed, an in-universe fanboy.

So he dresses like Vader. He puts on a cape. He wears all black. And he makes a scary bad-ass mask. Just like Darth Vader. But it's a facade. Kylo Ren doesn't need any of it. It's a fucking costume. Ren is cosplaying as Vader. He's not a Dark Lord of the Sith. He's a child playing dress up. And in TLJ, Snoke finally gets sick of it and calls him on his childish bullshit. "Take that ridiculous thing off," he commands.

Take that ridiculous thing off.

Humiliation. Humiliations galore. Snoke is telling Ren to put his toys away and grow up. So Ren smashes the helmet. He smashes the symbol of his childish need to be something he will never be. He's throwing away the persona of Kylo Ren. Just like he threw away Ben Solo. And the rest of TLJ is about Ren trying to find an identity. To figure out who he is. Is he Ben Solo? Kylo Ren? The Supreme Leader? Who is this man??

So when in the early stages of TRoS, the mask gets reforged, I was initially intrigued. What does this mean for the character? Why did he choose to do this? What story does this choice shape? What actions will it drive? Is he trying to rebuild the persona of Kylo Ren because trying to find out his true self was impossible? Is Kylo Ren his true self? Is he scared of Palpatine and needs the mask to hide himself?

In the end, the new mask means nothing. Nothing. Nothing happens with, because of, or even to the mask. He just wears it in some scenes and then doesn't wear it in others. At some point it just vanishes, never seen again. No purpose. No story function. No character function. It's just there.

It's just a fucking prop.

Not even a prop for Kylo Ren the character like it was in TFA. It's a prop for the movie. One of Ren's senior officers says how cool she thinks it looks and then that's the last time the mask is mentioned or acknowledged. It's just there because it looks cool. Like 80% of this movie. The mask just exists. The symbols don't matter. They're thrown away. Discarded. New ones don't replace them. Things replace them. Objects replace them. But they are never given context or meaning. They're nothing more than plot devices. MacGuffins. Stuff that looks cool.

That's all The Rise of Skywalker wanted to be. Something that looks cool.

[Nerovar]

I spend a lot of time thinking about symbols and metaphors. I think they are vitally important for storytelling. They create meaning and context to the objects we see. They drive characters and narratives. Watching TRoS, I'm given to think that all 4 (!!) writers don't know how to use symbols. Or why they're important. Or like... what the even are.

To wit: Kylo Ren's mask.

Throughout TFA and TLJ, I thought Kylo Ren was an absolutely pitch-perfect villain. He was violent and evil, but it all came from a deeply wounded place. He had depth without being sympathetic. An inwardly focused rage monster. A perfect foil to Rey's outward looking hope.

He's a man obsessed with Legacy. Running from the one he rejected, desperately clawing for the one he thinks he wants. Remember that "Kylo Ren" is an assumed name. It's a character. A fiction. A fabricated personality to replace Ben Solo. This man doesn't want to be a Solo. He wants to be a Skywalker. He wants to be Darth Vader. He's obsessed, an in-universe fanboy.

So he dresses like Vader. He puts on a cape. He wears all black. And he makes a scary bad-ass mask. Just like Darth Vader. But it's a facade. Kylo Ren doesn't need any of it. It's a fucking costume. Ren is cosplaying as Vader. He's not a Dark Lord of the Sith. He's a child playing dress up. And in TLJ, Snoke finally gets sick of it and calls him on his childish bullshit. "Take that ridiculous thing off," he commands.

Take that ridiculous thing off.

Humiliation. Humiliations galore. Snoke is telling Ren to put his toys away and grow up. So Ren smashes the helmet. He smashes the symbol of his childish need to be something he will never be. He's throwing away the persona of Kylo Ren. Just like he threw away Ben Solo. And the rest of TLJ is about Ren trying to find an identity. To figure out who he is. Is he Ben Solo? Kylo Ren? The Supreme Leader? Who is this man??

So when in the early stages of TRoS, the mask gets reforged, I was initially intrigued. What does this mean for the character? Why did he choose to do this? What story does this choice shape? What actions will it drive? Is he trying to rebuild the persona of Kylo Ren because trying to find out his true self was impossible? Is Kylo Ren his true self? Is he scared of Palpatine and needs the mask to hide himself?

In the end, the new mask means nothing. Nothing. Nothing happens with, because of, or even to the mask. He just wears it in some scenes and then doesn't wear it in others. At some point it just vanishes, never seen again. No purpose. No story function. No character function. It's just there.

It's just a fucking prop.

Not even a prop for Kylo Ren the character like it was in TFA. It's a prop for the movie. One of Ren's senior officers says how cool she thinks it looks and then that's the last time the mask is mentioned or acknowledged. It's just there because it looks cool. Like 80% of this movie. The mask just exists. The symbols don't matter. They're thrown away. Discarded. New ones don't replace them. Things replace them. Objects replace them. But they are never given context or meaning. They're nothing more than plot devices. MacGuffins. Stuff that looks cool.

That's all The Rise of Skywalker wanted to be. Something that looks cool.

They needed the reforged mask for new toys.

[qwerty123456]

That is more of your failure than a comment on Rey.

Rey is a character who wants to help people but can't let go of her past. She prefers to be alone, but doesn't turn away others.

In the books they explain how other scavengers worked with her and help keep her alive but she abandoned them because she was better then them.

[Elim Garak]

Kylo's mask - is the mask of the Knights of Ren. All knights of ren wear similar masks. I don't know why Snoke told him to take it off, maybe it has something to do with the inconsistencies between two directors, Ryan shat on Knights of Ren. When the Emperor told him to take charge of knights of ren again - they reforged his mask. That's probably how JJ get back at Ryan for destroying it.

[Darththeo]

In the books they explain how other scavengers worked with her and help keep her alive but she abandoned them because she was better then them.

And that's a lie. I read the books. She didn't work with other scavengers save building that ship that she wanted to sell and other larger jobs ... they chose to leave the planet in it AFTER being invited to go with them several times. Please tell me what "book" you read that said she left because she was "better than them."

[Fabinas]

Hard to see how anyone can try to argue that Luke and Rey are the same with a straight face. Having a moment of glory (making a shot on the Death Star) isn't remotely the kind of thing anyone means when they talk about a "Mary Sue." When we're introduced to Luke, he's kind of whiny and starts out getting his butt handed to him by a sand person jumping him. Before making the shot on the Death Star, the movie also makes it clear that he was out-piloted by Vader and was a split second from being shot down like all the other X-Wings that Vader shot down, but Han saves him. By the end of the second movie, Luke had his big lightsaber duel, got bashed and thrown around, and barely saved after getting his hand cut off.

Rey, when she's introduced to us, is an expert pilot pulling off maneuvers on screen more impressive than any maneuvers the audience had seen in any previous Star Wars movie (seriously, just watch that segment of the Falcon flying through the ruins of the Star Destroyer and her lining up the shot for Fin). The problem isn't even that she does piloting like that, it's that we see it as her flying introduction to us. That kind of piloting is what you'd expect a movie to at least build up to, not start out with. Then with ground-fighting.... Unlike Luke getting beat by a sand person, when Rey's first shown to us fighting someone on the ground, we see that she's an expert with a staff. When she has her first duel with a dark side user who we've been shown doing incredible new things (like stopping a blater shot mid-air), she.... beats him. When Rey gets to her second movie, we see her beat Luke in a fight. People can make excuses to say why it could make sense for her to win in those particular moments, but they're just excuses - those aren't scenes that added value, they're scenes that robbed the character of needed humbling moments.

"Mary Sue" is a phrase that's gotten too elastic these days, sure, but it's a bit too useful as a short-hand description of why Rey's a terrible character. She has no "hero's journey" in the first two movies. It's hard to care about her. The third movie TRIES so hard to make up for the lack of work done by the first two movies.

Rise of Skywalker is kind of a valiant effort at damage control. In a lot of ways, that does help make it an enjoyable movie at least (it does feel like a movie being made at least by someone who's trying to help the Star Wars brand rather than spit on it, like The Last Jedi). But at the same time, asking people to rate the Rise of Skywalker is like asking people to rate how well the captain and crew of the Titanic were at piloting the Titanic AFTER they hit the iceberg. They could make good decision after good decision after hitting the iceberg, but there's no getting around the fact that they hit the iceberg. The extent to which the new trilogy undermined the original trilogy victories is enormous. Every fan I know in real life seems to feel dramatically disinvested from the franchise after the Last Jedi. Most of them will watch Rise of Skywalker because it's just too tempting to see what damage control looks like after that, but in the aftermath of this trilogy, the Star Wars brand feels a lot more damaged than it was by the prequels. It's Star Wars, so it will always be massively profitable, and yet, it feels like it'll still only be performing at half of what its potential was.

I honestly don't get how a corporation as big as Disney, with as many bright minds at the top as it has, could mishandle such a valuable property. Even without in-depth talk about story points, just the reality that you had what was likely the most hyped sequel trilogy in history and they didn't actually plan the thing out, changing out writers and director styles, making it up as they went along into the later entries.... that's just insane. Why wouldn't they plan an arc from the start?

Agree. Totally.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Kylo's mask - is the mask of the Knights of Ren. All knights of ren wear similar masks. I don't know why Snoke told him to take it off, maybe it has something to do with the inconsistencies between two directors, Ryan shat on Knights of Ren. When the Emperor told him to take charge of knights of ren again - they reforged his mask. That's probably how JJ get back at Ryan for destroying it.

From the comic they put out right before release it seems like the knights of ren are pretty much just a tool/weapon. It could be that snoke wanted kylo to leave that behind and become a real sith and by Palpatine saying he should go back he’s just saying that he sees kylo as a tool nothing more.

[Relapses]

Hard to see how anyone can try to argue that Luke and Rey are the same with a straight face. Having a moment of glory (making a shot on the Death Star) isn't remotely the kind of thing anyone means when they talk about a "Mary Sue." When we're introduced to Luke, he's kind of whiny and starts out getting his butt handed to him by a sand person jumping him. Before making the shot on the Death Star, the movie also makes it clear that he was out-piloted by Vader and was a split second from being shot down like all the other X-Wings that Vader shot down, but Han saves him. By the end of the second movie, Luke had his big lightsaber duel, got bashed and thrown around, and barely saved after getting his hand cut off.

Rey, when she's introduced to us, is an expert pilot pulling off maneuvers on screen more impressive than any maneuvers the audience had seen in any previous Star Wars movie (seriously, just watch that segment of the Falcon flying through the ruins of the Star Destroyer and her lining up the shot for Fin). The problem isn't even that she does piloting like that, it's that we see it as her flying introduction to us. That kind of piloting is what you'd expect a movie to at least build up to, not start out with. Then with ground-fighting.... Unlike Luke getting beat by a sand person, when Rey's first shown to us fighting someone on the ground, we see that she's an expert with a staff. When she has her first duel with a dark side user who we've been shown doing incredible new things (like stopping a blater shot mid-air), she.... beats him. When Rey gets to her second movie, we see her beat Luke in a fight. People can make excuses to say why it could make sense for her to win in those particular moments, but they're just excuses - those aren't scenes that added value, they're scenes that robbed the character of needed humbling moments.

"Mary Sue" is a phrase that's gotten too elastic these days, sure, but it's a bit too useful as a short-hand description of why Rey's a terrible character. She has no "hero's journey" in the first two movies. It's hard to care about her. The third movie TRIES so hard to make up for the lack of work done by the first two movies.

Rise of Skywalker is kind of a valiant effort at damage control. In a lot of ways, that does help make it an enjoyable movie at least (it does feel like a movie being made at least by someone who's trying to help the Star Wars brand rather than spit on it, like The Last Jedi). But at the same time, asking people to rate the Rise of Skywalker is like asking people to rate how well the captain and crew of the Titanic were at piloting the Titanic AFTER they hit the iceberg. They could make good decision after good decision after hitting the iceberg, but there's no getting around the fact that they hit the iceberg. The extent to which the new trilogy undermined the original trilogy victories is enormous. Every fan I know in real life seems to feel dramatically disinvested from the franchise after the Last Jedi. Most of them will watch Rise of Skywalker because it's just too tempting to see what damage control looks like after that, but in the aftermath of this trilogy, the Star Wars brand feels a lot more damaged than it was by the prequels. It's Star Wars, so it will always be massively profitable, and yet, it feels like it'll still only be performing at half of what its potential was.

I honestly don't get how a corporation as big as Disney, with as many bright minds at the top as it has, could mishandle such a valuable property. Even without in-depth talk about story points, just the reality that you had what was likely the most hyped sequel trilogy in history and they didn't actually plan the thing out, changing out writers and director styles, making it up as they went along into the later entries.... that's just insane. Why wouldn't they plan an arc from the start?

That's a lot of words to say "The Last Jedi sucked and you're not a real Star Wars fan if you don't appreciate the half assed efforts Rise of Skywalker made to erase its existence from canon."

It's impossible for me to disagree more with you. In fact, those half assed efforts are precisely why the movie is mediocre. J. J. could have run with the idea and taken the franchise in a direction that wasn't hamstrung by its past and instead decide to please the lowest common denominator -- shitty Star Wars fans who care wayyyyyyy too fucking much about "lore" -- and the entire film suffered as a result.

[SirCowdog]

Nice, the issue is of course that most people jsut don't know what mary sue means. Rey is not one, 100% and YOU have just proved it, see below

See? She's negatives. She has issues.

But boy let's see your mental loop loop in on itself

You've just listed all the times she was tempted... and then conclude she never is.

Just getting angry isn't how to use the dark side. Anyone can get angry, but that's not how being good at the force works. Here's a canon scene of Dooku training Savage. It requires training, discipline, and will to focus your anger instead of letting it dominate you.

But Rey doesn't do that. She's just good without any real training. A couple of weeks of boot camp doesn't make you a veteran or an expert, no matter how good your genetics are.

The reason why Rey is a Mary Sue is because everything is more or less handed to her via plot armor. Compare this to Kylo, who not only is trained for years by Luke, then years by Snoke....has to "kill" Luke, his father, and then Snoke to progress. And lets not forget that his lineage is just as powerful as Rey's.

That's why she's a Mary Sue. Sure, you could come up with some minor threadbare plot points to try and explain it, but it's THIN. Even her name gets gets given to her "I'm a skywalker now, herp derp derp!" Come on man, really?

[Darththeo]

That's a lot of words to say "The Last Jedi sucked and you're not a real Star Wars fan if you don't appreciate the half assed efforts Rise of Skywalker made to erase its existence from cannon."

It's impossible for me to disagree more with you. In fact, those half assed efforts are precisely why the movie is mediocre. J. J. could have run with the idea and taken the franchise in a direction that wasn't hamstrung by its past and instead decide to please the lowest common denominator -- shitty Star Wars fans who care wayyyyyyy too fucking much about "lore" -- and the entire film suffered as a result.

The worst part is a lot of people who hate TLJ stating lore are factually wrong on Star Wars lore. Especially the ones that go along the lines of "EU was better!"

- - - Updated - - -

But Rey doesn't do that. She's just good without any real training. A couple of weeks of boot camp doesn't make you a veteran or an expert, no matter how good your genetics are.

Ignoring a lot to make an argument there.

The reason why Rey is a Mary Sue is because everything is more or less handed to her via plot armor. Compare this to Kylo, who not only is trained for years by Luke, then years by Snoke....has to "kill" Luke, his father, and then Snoke to progress. And lets not forget that his lineage is just as powerful as Rey's.

That's why she's a Mary Sue. Sure, you could come up with some minor threadbare plot points to try and explain it, but it's THIN. Even her name gets gets given to her "I'm a skywalker now, herp derp derp!" Come on man, really?

Nothing here related to what a Mary Sue is. And is arguably a very broad strokes view of the entire story and character of Rey.