Why the Elf-human coupling hate?

[Shiza]

Or maybe, and this is crazy, the writers' intent was to portray him with certain flaws, which are indeed acknowledged in the story itself by characters like Sylvanas and Tyrande. Anduin himself admits how he failed the people who burned at Teldrassil.

Yet he stills befriends one of the leading architects of the genocide and supports him with his armies, he engages in negotiations with the Horde without any demand, like reparations and that war criminals get trialed and punished or anything really. Instead, he indicates that Tyrande is consumed by vengeance because she demands justice for her people. Not to forget that his behavior towards women who just experienced a genocide is more than questionable and toxic.

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I'm also confused by @Shiza , also astonishing is the venom directed at the fictional character... are you sure it's Anduin your talking about? I guess it's true that being righteous will have some people hate you on the spot without even knowing you. And it wouldn't even matter if you're real or fictional.

My problem also extends to the writers, especially Christie Golden who is Anduins main writer and tries to paint him as some non-toxic male icon, while he should come off as fully disgusting and a narcissist who uses holier than thou moral standarts to stroke his ego for everyone with a normal moral conscience.

[Daedius]

Be to elves like humans loving a dog. Dogs only around for 15 years or so... Humans to Elves much less comparatively...

[ravenmoon]

Alleria is an Alliance character, have not heard anyone wish to have her in the Horde

Iti's been around a lot, but don't blame them tbh, if you really loved a faction, and one of the members of its race, highly revered was returning, but it went to teh opposite faction , you'd be disappointed at blizz or hate her or both, - it's exactly the same as alliance fans taht hate blood elves and nightborne going horde where before that they were fine with either races.

There are a few who don't like the sudden character or personality switch though that dthe way the change was explained seems to characterise characters very differently. .but truth is blizzard dont think that deeply about it, the lore team should, they should make an effor tot adjust /explain /show tThalyssra changes well enough to justify the change, but then the saga might not yet be over.. warcraft really just play it as it comes and worry about conflicts and contradictions later or not at all.

this is why it's hard to be a fan of the lore even if you may like the game world.

[Seylene]

Well I think a lot of it is that its almost entirely a human male swooping in and impressing an elven maiden (Usually a hero in her own right) And drawing her away from her people a sacrifice for the human ego that puts the elf at a lesser position. Now it worked well in Tolkien to really emphasize the distinction of the Dunedain(sp?) As a conjoining factor, nearly a lynch pin among the series built up through literal novels that actually set the trope. The issue with something like Warcraft is the elf gains nothing from such a coupling except a mate and family that will likely die well before they do. I could not imagine marrying someone knowing I will outlive both my husband and children that sounds like a prospect of hell. Not a good tradeoff just for some dude to have a young hot wife his entire life.

[Lupinemancer]

I'm really curious why there is so much hate for the elf/human relationships in the fan community of warcraft?

1. Personally I quite liked Vereesa/Rhonin and really want to see the twins developed.
2. I also was fine with Alleria/Turalyon and really liked how their story was improved in legion and took time to reunite with Arator their son I'd love to see more of
3. Sylvanas/Nathanos seems the forbidden love story, or the dark twisted type which I am definitely curious about

My observation though, is that:

• it is a bit weird how far more prominent elf/human cross breeding is than any other, and
• equally weird is that it's ALWAYS female elves with male humans,
• also the lack of any prominent pure Thalassian elf couples.

In fact the only elven couple I can think of are Malfurion and Tyrande that actaully has had any noticeable storytelling impact. Yes there is some mention of Jarods wife (though she died) and the occasional small quest other, but I can't think of any really that is noticeable off the top of my head.


Still, why the hate?

It's either jealousy that people can't get a girl that look as good as Elves does, or because they can't get any girl period

[Varodoc]

Yet he stills befriends one of the leading architects of the genocide and supports him with his armies, he engages in negotiations with the Horde without any demand, like reparations and that war criminals get trialed and punished or anything really. Instead, he indicates that Tyrande is consumed by vengeance because she demands justice for her people. Not to forget that his behavior towards women who just experienced a genocide is more than questionable and toxic.

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My problem also extends to the writers, especially Christie Golden who is Anduins main writer and tries to paint him as some non-toxic male icon, while he should come off as fully disgusting and a narcissist who uses holier than thou moral standarts to stroke his ego for everyone with a normal moral conscience.

So yeah, he does a bunch of flawed and naive things.

I know you're mostly trolling, but there's genuinely no one alive who seriously believes that the writers intended for people to be agreeing with Sylvanas' replies to him in the throne room.

In fact I was referring to her comments about Anduin's inability to control his underling Rogers at Stormheim. And I don't care what the majority thinks. The majority doesn't dictate what is true and what isn't.

[Clone]

It's overdone, and it's really a male fantasy of getting a different flavor of women. You can find the same phenomenon in more grounded settings with different ethnicities of women.

[ravenmoon]

You see him empathize with Tyrande who lost thousands of her people, the same people she's been watching over for thousands of years, at the hands of the very same people Varian told her to leave alone?

Any sort of "my condolences"? Any consideration about how must she feel about all the shit night Elves have gone through? You know, for a dude considered by his writer as exemplar because it shows no toxic masculinity, thus in theory cares for what others feel, sure can't apply that to anyone who disagrees with him.

Maybe that's why Anduin isn't liked, because all the aspects of him athat are masculine but PC and SJW label as toxic masulinity are not there, and this is irritating to a guy or to most guys anwyay.. maybe this is why @Shiza doesn't like CHristie Golden's writing of him, because he is coming off as the female man or a woman's aidea of a man she can totally relate to, be comfortable witha nd not fear at aall because she understands him and can thus control him.. which is the logic behind the current gender war that pisses most guys up (assumptions aside ofc).

[Super Dickmann]

In fact I was referring to her comments about Anduin's inability to control his underling Rogers at Stormheim. And I don't care what the majority thinks. The majority doesn't dictate what is true and what isn't.

It's a compelling argument in-story, but less so one out of story, because while Saurfang and the Horde don't have all the information, we do. We know that Anduin just wants peace and that the thing with Genn and Rogers in Stormheim was a one-off. Sylvanas would ordinarily have a point, but doesn't because from an omniscient viewpoint we are well aware she has nothing to worry about and that with relatively little effort everyone could be friends with each other.

Ditto, normally Tyrande would be right, and logically she is right, but she's made to be wrong because we know the game will have Anduin's faith that the Horde are now 100% his buddies will be validated, irrespective of the fact that they were waging a war of extermination on him and his people and only stopped because their leader called them mean names.

Hence the problem with Anduin.

[Tabrotar]

I don't really care that much about them being with humans but i do hate that it's always humans and elves. They are the safe mix. Not going to see a goblin and gnome get together anytime soon.

You DO KNOW that they had such a pairing and that is one part of why the horde attacked the alliance in silithus when they looked what happened there.

[plz delete account]

I'm really curious why there is so much hate for the elf/human relationships in the fan community of warcraft?

1. Personally I quite liked Vereesa/Rhonin and really want to see the twins developed.
2. I also was fine with Alleria/Turalyon and really liked how their story was improved in legion and took time to reunite with Arator their son I'd love to see more of
3. Sylvanas/Nathanos seems the forbidden love story, or the dark twisted type which I am definitely curious about

My observation though, is that:

• it is a bit weird how far more prominent elf/human cross breeding is than any other, and
• equally weird is that it's ALWAYS female elves with male humans,
• also the lack of any prominent pure Thalassian elf couples.

In fact the only elven couple I can think of are Malfurion and Tyrande that actaully has had any noticeable storytelling impact. Yes there is some mention of Jarods wife (though she died) and the occasional small quest other, but I can't think of any really that is noticeable off the top of my head.


Still, why the hate?

Sylvanas/Nathanos is the worst of those three

In lore, Human-High/Blood/Void Elf and Human couplings don't usually turn out children that look very good for some reason. It's discussed in some audio drama I think the Vareesa and Rhonin got lucky.

[Varodoc]

It's a compelling argument in-story, but less so one out of story, because while Saurfang and the Horde don't have all the information, we do. We know that Anduin just wants peace and that the thing with Genn and Rogers in Stormheim was a one-off. Sylvanas would ordinarily have a point, but doesn't because from an omniscient viewpoint we are well aware she has nothing to worry about and that with relatively little effort everyone could be friends with each other.

Ditto, normally Tyrande would be right, and logically she is right, but she's made to be wrong because we know the game will not have Anduin's faith that the Horde are now 100% his buddies will be validated.

Hence the problem with Anduin.

We were talking about instances of characters in-universe pointing out Anduin's flaws, and that's one of those. Saurfang even agrees with Sylvanas that Anduin cannot be trusted while Greymane whispers in his ears.

Tyrande would not be right at all. With N'Zoth unleashed and ready for war, it would be foolish to pursue a never-ending bloodshed with the Horde. There will be time for vengeance after N'Zoth is defeated. A leader who does not have their priorities straight is a fool who shouldn't lead anyone.

Here's what would happen if Tyrande had her way:



Besides it is just an armistice, it is not even a full peace treaty.

[plz delete account]

It's a compelling argument in-story, but less so one out of story, because while Saurfang and the Horde don't have all the information, we do. We know that Anduin just wants peace and that the thing with Genn and Rogers in Stormheim was a one-off. Sylvanas would ordinarily have a point, but doesn't because from an omniscient viewpoint we are well aware she has nothing to worry about and that with relatively little effort everyone could be friends with each other.

Ditto, normally Tyrande would be right, and logically she is right, but she's made to be wrong because we know the game will have Anduin's faith that the Horde are now 100% his buddies will be validated, irrespective of the fact that they were waging a war of extermination on him and his people and only stopped because their leader called them mean names.

Hence the problem with Anduin.

Anduin shirt buddy. We're still waiting. I sent you a couple images you could use.

[ravenmoon]

Well I think a lot of it is that its almost entirely a human male swooping in and impressing an elven maiden (Usually a hero in her own right) And drawing her away from her people a sacrifice for the human ego that puts the elf at a lesser position. Now it worked well in Tolkien to really emphasize the distinction of the Dunedain(sp?) As a conjoining factor, nearly a lynch pin among the series built up through literal novels that actually set the trope. The issue with something like Warcraft is the elf gains nothing from such a coupling except a mate and family that will likely die well before they do. I could not imagine marrying someone knowing I will outlive both my husband and children that sounds like a prospect of hell. Not a good tradeoff just for some dude to have a young hot wife his entire life.

I know, this is why warcraft comes off cheap, the profound realities of the elves and other thigns are much better presented in Tolkein's books than in the warcraft lore, not just the nice explanation above, which has a sense or highlight of the main romance story, yet it's rarity and anormalcy is properly depicted. In Tolkein's work, the elves properly feel like immortal beings, without being super saiyan, invulnerable nor infallible, they make mistakes too, if you've gone through all the works, but it's done in such a way that doesn't undermine them or make you feel it's silly.. take the behaviour of Tyrande and most of the night elves most of the time, you can't seriously consider these immortal or 10k + year old beings, or the behaviour even of the high elves compared to humans who so easily match and surpass them with a fraction of the training in waht seems to be everyrelevant way and outshine them and out represenet them in all the major events and affairs.. and you're like... WTF is this? In the LotR, an elf was involved, but you understood also quite well why the elves werne't marching to Mordor at any time despite the gravity of the situation, yet Elven counsel also plays a key role in setting the heroes on the path that ultimately leads to their victory in aa way that is clear to see.

It plays out much more balanced. When you do warcraft and you see how much the story struggles to properly portray races and individuals according to their racial profile, you may think this is such a hard thing, but all you need to do is step into other series/mmos, and see a much better job being done (example SWTOR, even the MARVEL and DC comic hero stuff) and you wonder how hard is it to stick to the parameters and features you gave your races and groups to the fans...

You can only conclude, they're just not trying which inevitably means they just don't take it seriously enough.. whic then leads people like me to think... then why should I?

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Sylvanas/Nathanos is the worst of those three

In lore, Human-High/Blood/Void Elf and Human couplings don't usually turn out children that look very good for some reason. It's discussed in some audio drama I think the Vareesa and Rhonin got lucky.

Oh, I didn't know that, could you find a source. I thought generally their off spring were actually quite good looking. Vereesa's boys are described as drop dead category of good looking, and while descriptions of Arator aren't really given, he is given the blood elf male model, which indicates despite being half elven, he has the good looks of his mother's people. But humans aren't all ugly either, and some of htem can be quite good looking, we know that., ther eis no reason why elven/human children wouldn't carry on that tradition, presumably the men the elf women choose aren't ugly, Jaina is quite pretty and Kael'thas fell for her ...

wher'ed you hear that?

[Super Dickmann]

Anduin shirt buddy. We're still waiting. I sent you a couple images you could use.

She ditches Sylvanas, her race and her continent to join Good Queen Calia, so I'm home free. You can send me a shirt for my gift of prophecy though, I'll appreciate it. I'm partial to a Christmas one.

@Tenebra the War Criminal

We have nearly all story material already available and confidently say that the Horde and Alliance play next to zero part in resolving the problem. It's all down to Magni and the titan stuff. But let's ignore that presentation and just accept that their unity is very essential for fighting N'zoth. Even then, that'd have no weight on the Alliance going on to extract costs after the war effort rather than just taking the enemy's word for it, an enemy that as already mentioned, only ditched the war they were waging because of Sylvanas's attitude towards the Horde personally, not a disagreement with her war goals.

As for characters calling out Anduin, Sylvanas does not do so, this is treated as Sylvanas tricking Saurfang and we know for a fact that every aspect of Sylvanas' plan is wrong, down to her not believing in it and just wanting to do it to off as much people as possible. Saurfang and Sylvanas operate on the basis that the Alliance have far more depth than they actually do, and that's why they fail. There is no risk to the Horde and no risk of internal Alliance division, because they're all aligned with Our Treasure. Anduin was never going to do harm to the Horde without outside intervention and even when he did he'd feel far more bad about it than he would about his allies being exterminated or the suicide armies he'd send to their deaths so he can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

[Rendark]

You DO KNOW that they had such a pairing and that is one part of why the horde attacked the alliance in silithus when they looked what happened there.

I DID NOT know that.

[Varodoc]

She ditches Sylvanas, her race and her continent to join Good Queen Calia, so I'm home free. You can send me a shirt for my gift of prophecy though, I'll appreciate it.
@Tenebra the War Criminal

We have nearly all story material already available and confidently say that the Horde and Alliance play next to zero part in resolving the problem. It's all down to Magni and the titan stuff. But let's ignore that presentation and just accept that their unity is very essential for fighting N'zoth. Even then, that'd have no weight on the Alliance going on to extract costs after the war effort rather than just taking the enemy's word for it, an enemy that as already mentioned, only ditched the war they were waging because of Sylvanas's attitude towards the Horde personally, not a disagreement with her war goals.

As for characters calling out Anduin, Sylvanas does not do so, this is treated as Sylvanas tricking Saurfang and we know for a fact that every aspect of Sylvanas' plan is wrong, down to her not believing in it and just wanting to do it to off as much people as possible. They assume Anduin isn't a messiah and pay the price. Saurfang and Sylvanas operate on the basis that the Alliance have far more depth than they actually do, and that's why they fail.

Anduin and co don't have the story material unfortunately, they don't know that N'Zoth, like most WoW villains, is a little pussy who gets dealt with rather quickly, so naturally they think that between a fully unleashed Old God and vengeance, perhaps the fully unleashed Old God is the greater problem.

This isn't anything new either. In the Patch 3.1 trailer it was hammered down how stupid Varian and Garrosh are for hating on each other while an Old God is making ready for war, and that was just an enthralled Old God, not even a fully released one.

[matrix123mko]

I don't like it because it looks absurdal. We have more Thalassian-human relationships than natural ones between elves. Imagine if all orcs were into dwarves for some reason. That would look weird.

[Donatello Trumpi]

Elf man, hook him up with a female angel to show the same reason.

Can you give me an example of this? Sounds interesting.

[matrix123mko]

Sylvanas/Nathanos is the worst of those three

I think this one is the most realistic. They are undead now and they are beyond race.

In lore, Human-High/Blood/Void Elf and Human couplings don't usually turn out children that look very good for some reason. It's discussed in some audio drama I think the Vareesa and Rhonin got lucky.

They weren't lucky.