Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[Frozenbro]

The crit damage one has the same corruption values as bad ones (at least for dps) such as leech / avoidance.

I was referring to the non conventional ones, like Infinite Star (60/80/100 of ap/sp, 20/50/75 corruption), crit damage is fine, crit % scales by 1 for each 5 corruption, dunno whats the issue here.

Honest question: Did you put as much effort into your "i like Corruption" stance?

Because this is a two way street, you can't accuse me of putting no effort into forming my opinion, if you didn't do that either.

Nope, i have a neutral stance on the affixes with ppm, since i dont know them to clearly say if their high corruption is justified or not, im just basing my opinion on these facts:

- Corruption will be more common than titanforging? -> yes, +1 to corruption.
- Corruption will have more depth and customization than titanforging? -> yes, +1 to corruption.
- Corruption will have better interaction with personal loot allowing for easier trades? -> not sure about this one yet, but if you can then another BIG +1.

So yeah according to this i stand on the "i like corruption over titanforging" any day.

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mythic isn't out of reach of normal players because of the tuning. It's because blizzard wants you to farm an additional 15 hours a week for AP, reputation, essences, and dear god the consumable costs. All while the loot is roided up rng making proper progression feel like pushing a bolder uphill.

These overstatements are so common its hilarious at this point.

[Zka]

Raiding used to be a logistic and strategic endeavour. It used to be about preparation and maximizing your dps/hps/tps while following a simple tactic.

It slowly shifted towards an action game. Sure, world firsts and anything near that still require perfect throughput but the emphasis has long been shifted from preparation and strategy to dexterity. That's why I've finished raiding several expansions ago. It's a totally different game now and I won't come back to raiding until it's back to its roots. I guess that will never happen.

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I wasnt asked but i hate titanforging too so ill bite.

- It diminishes the value of the hardest content since you can get same ilvl on 1 tier lower with a decent enough chance raid wise, corruption too but not to that extent.
- Split runs were a nightmare for any guild doing them thanks to titanforging cause random ilvl upgrades, corruption fixes some of it (unless you cant trade corrupted pieces, correct me on this).
- Ilvl inflation was way out of control, this affects pugs more than stablished guilds since finding proper players was a nightmare thanks to everyone wearing "false ilvl".

TF also makes all content much more replayable. Which is extremely important for everyone - both for players and Blizz.
Split runs? Seriously, who the fuck cares about that except for the top 0.1% of raiders? Fuck them.
Ilvl is not overinflated because of TF. It's overinflated because Blizzard wants to offer 3-4 raid (and dungeon) difficulty levels with different reward tiers with decent gaps between them. TF is just the icing on the cake.
Corruption is just a different kind of rng, it's funny how TF haters fail to understand.

[asil]

The only conclusion I can come to is that you have no idea how raiding works if you think it still isn't about preparation and strategy.

The only difference is you actually have to know how to press your buttons now.

[Kralljin]

I was referring to the non conventional ones, like Infinite Star (60/80/100 of ap/sp, 20/50/75 corruption), crit damage is fine, crit % scales by 1 for each 5 corruption, dunno whats the issue here.

Crit damage >> for most specs / classes.
So that one affix is much more valueable than the others.

- Corruption will be more common than titanforging? -> yes, +1 to corruption.

I fail to see how this is a plus.
Because Blizzard even nerfed the chance of Titanforging going into BfA, which was generally considered a good move.

And by the way, it is more common because not every corrupted piece will be useable.

- Corruption will have more depth and customization than titanforging? -> yes, +1 to corruption.

This is more than faulty.

First off, "depth".
All corruption affixes are passive procs or entirely passive bonuses, the only one that has some impact is the Glimpse of Clarity, which however a pretty useless affix for some classes.

On top of that, do you know a lot of people tackle this "depth"?
CTRL+C => Raidbots.

That's how people will approach this sort of "depth".

If you build a system entirely on numbers and throw a huge RNG modifier into it, people are just going resort to simulation to figure out what's best.
I've said this in this thread before, the popularity of Raidbots / Sims is the communities answer to Blizzards ever increasing randomization of gear.

Second, Customization.

In order to "customize" it, you need a lot of pieces.
A lot of pieces with the right affixes and the right corruption levels, which can be kinda hard to get because they're hidden within layers of RNG.

So your "options" of customization is at the mercy of RNG.

So yeah according to this i stand on the "i like corruption over titanforging" any day.

You are free to this opinion, but in my view, we are trading a terrible system for a at best bad one.
Which obviously isn't a huge upgrade.

[Dizzeeyooo]

You are free to this opinion, but in my view, we are trading a terrible system for a at best bad one.
Which obviously isn't a huge upgrade.

Baby steps though

[Osmeric]

The irony of you calling out Blizzard for weaponizing casuals to defend titanforging, to then be immediately attacked by a casual defending titanforging

I myself do not defend titanforging. When Blizzard adds TF, then tunes the encounters around the intended audience having TF gear, they have not done that audience any favors. What they have done is reduce the effective drop rate of gear from that content. The non-TF drops are just distractions.

[muto]

The game is just boring after a while. I stopped raiding after a few of our Queen’s Court kills. The only thing to look forward to was opening up the Mythic+ box and buying a piece of Azerite every two weeks only to be disappointed. I played Classic as well and got to level 50, but that got boring after a while as well though it does feel far more social than the current game. Also, Jaina Raid was way more fun.

[Frozenbro]

Crit damage >> for most specs / classes.
So that one affix is much more valueable than the others.

Yes but the point is that the scaling is normalized in terms of increase per corruption for it, which is fine

I fail to see how this is a plus.
Because Blizzard even nerfed the chance of Titanforging going into BfA, which was generally considered a good move.

And by the way, it is more common because not every corrupted piece will be useable.

And thats good cause this means you can play around (sim) the diff combinations you can come up with, since every spec should have a diff sweet spot, if corruption was scarce, then you would use w/e you have.

This is more than faulty.

First off, "depth".
All corruption affixes are passive procs or entirely passive bonuses, the only one that has some impact is the Glimpse of Clarity, which however a pretty useless affix for some classes.

On top of that, do you know a lot of people tackle this "depth"?
CTRL+C => Raidbots.

That's how people will approach this sort of "depth".

If you build a system entirely on numbers and throw a huge RNG modifier into it, people are just going resort to simulation to figure out what's best.
I've said this in this thread before, the popularity of Raidbots / Sims is the communities answer to Blizzards ever increasing randomization of gear.

Second, Customization.

In order to "customize" it, you need a lot of pieces.
A lot of pieces with the right affixes and the right corruption levels, which can be kinda hard to get because they're hidden within layers of RNG.

So your "options" of customization is at the mercy of RNG.

Glimpse of clarity will change some specs rotations entirely depending on its procs, ineffable truth can change some short cd specs rotations too, and the stat affixes will make the soft cap of some specs easier to reach, so yeah all of this adds depth.

And the customization part, yeah in the end its all going to raidbots, but you come up with maybe 2 diff combinations of corruption pieces and you sim both, this is better than titanforge since you had to come up with these 2 combinations by yourself first, all in all not *that* braindead gearing.

- - - Updated - - -

Raiding used to be a logistic and strategic endeavour. It used to be about preparation and maximizing your dps/hps/tps while following a simple tactic.

It slowly shifted towards an action game. Sure, world firsts and anything near that still require perfect throughput but the emphasis has long been shifted from preparation and strategy to dexterity. That's why I've finished raiding several expansions ago. It's a totally different game now and I won't come back to raiding until it's back to its roots. I guess that will never happen.

You cant be serious about this, more than ever the game is about strategy and preparation, i know for a fact that you are absolutely clueless about how raid leading is today compared to the *past* you talk about, with the past being the easy one.

[dacoolist]

This is just a thread filled with casuals who pat themselves in the back in the attempt of bolstering their echo chamber of "mythic bad, casuals good" as the excuse why their raid/guild died or is stuck on a boss

1900 guilds killed mythic jaina - 2000 guilds killed mythic gul'dan

825 guilds killed mythic azshara - 890 guilds killed mythic kil'jaeden, with months and months left to catch up on this

Not to mention participation of unique characters in M+ is also beating/evening out Legion, even though BFA M+ isn't used for AP grinding


Which is interesting because last time I checked people were praising Legion and considering it a good expansion, yet I keep reading everwhere that "MUH RAIDS" even though ACTUAL NUMBERS are proving you wrong, that apparently players are leaving everywhere, that Classic, the almost dead game, is apparently 3x the size of BFA and the playerbase at this point is in the hundreds.

Incredible how a dying game is still even with the numbers of Legion, huh?

If anything, the conversation should actually be about the casual guilds and the ways to obtain gear below mythic level, since even though the mythic numbers are the same, the HC numbers are +9000 for Nighthold and +7000 for ToS

I hope most as well as myself only speak for people like me - as a casual and a mediocre casual at that - I feel like the games done decently well on how much skill it takes to kill bosses etc.

Hopefully nothing is an echo chamber, because we all love to argue here on mmo-c.com , and the big takeaway is that people will either go into mythic and get their face bashed in, or stay and progress.. it's that simple.

My store for Mythicc EP goes like this:

1) One day we're in heroic and the next the raid leader takes us into mythic
2) We wipe quite a bit on the first boss until we get enough heals to take it down
3) Next two bosses don't stop us much and go down pretty well
4) we get stuck on ash for 3 weeks, then after killing it a week before nerf we kill it a few more times and the guild stopped until 8.3

As a casual, you have to know your limits.. raiding a night a week, raiding in pugs a lot, running mostly pugs whenever you have time to log in.. it doesn't leave you much room to progress.

As for a hardcore: You likely would be raiding 3+ nights a week for probably 4 hours a night to really get to the end properly and that's with a guild that REALLY pushes with class stacking, always having alts up to speed, always giving the guild 110% over IRL so that you can get that CE

I can't speak for the top 1%, I can only speak for the mid tier casuals that almost never go past maybe even 2 mythic bosses. I hope people don't think the games totally dead yet because on servers like Illidan NA its totally alive and well, as for the overall numbers - with classic I think the main game took a big hit, but I think many will be back for 8.3 for least a month or two before quitting until ShadowL just like most people that play the themepark mmo called Retail WoW do.

M+ in legion was easy imo, compared to the more balance of toughness in BFA - I think the single best thing in BFA besides maybe some pvp stuff is M+ , M+ in Legion wasn't really anything but a means to an end like you stated for Artifact Power in Maw to just getting a good item from the chest - BFA.. you really dont have a lot of options on stuff to do, where as Legion had a shit ton of stuff to do because of the time gates being so much smoother.

Anyway overall I think BFA is alright, but Legion just felt better because content just kept getting released so fast that I didn't have to worry: I knew that in 3 months something new was coming, then 3 MORE months a new pvp season and raid/m+, then in 3 months something new, then in 3 more months... you get he picture. In BFA you have to wait 6 months (double the time) just for the same thing that happened in 3 months time in Leg.. that's the big takeaway here imo

[Zka]

You cant be serious about this, more than ever the game is about strategy and preparation, i know for a fact that you are absolutely clueless about how raid leading is today compared to the *past* you talk about, with the past being the easy one.

Not sure what you mean here. I expressed my concerns with the design philosophy of raid bosses Blizz has been following since about late LK. It's way too twitchy, way too dexterity based, bloated with boss abilities to the point of absurdity in some cases. My comment is quite on-topic, it's a feedback from one player who is very disappointed with the high-end raid design.
Sure, if someone doesn't have a problem with this design, then probably they can see some kind of preparation and strategy gameplay behind the raiding game All I see is a game that used to about strategy and cooperation turned into an annoying action game over several years.

[Loveliest]

Bottom line, raiding is dying and M+ will be the replacement.

Speculation. I do M+ only because I get good gear to use in raids. I wouldn't stick around to repeat the same content over and over without having a goal. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

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M+ in legion was easy imo, compared to the more balance of toughness in BFA

With M+ you always hit a level where it gets hard. For example I recall Hyrja hitting like a truck, you were getting oneshot at high levels.
I also don't find BfA dungeons balanced - they have trash upon heaps of trash, the seasonal affixes make it so some specific classes are favored above all else (skips!), some are extremely easy and some are extremely hard at the same level. Some are very time forgiving, some are very tight and one wipe alone will cause you to miss the timer - at the same level.
As for rewards, I'm not sure how you figure Legion ones are different from BfA ones, it's the same reward structure (after they removed the 2/3 chests in Legion). I mean what else do you get in BfA? There's that one rank 4 essence, but other than that most still do it for that one item in the chest next week.

[GringoD]

This is just a thread filled with casuals who pat themselves in the back in the attempt of bolstering their echo chamber of "mythic bad, casuals good" as the excuse why their raid/guild died or is stuck on a boss

1900 guilds killed mythic jaina - 2000 guilds killed mythic gul'dan

825 guilds killed mythic azshara - 890 guilds killed mythic kil'jaeden, with months and months left to catch up on this

Not to mention participation of unique characters in M+ is also beating/evening out Legion, even though BFA M+ isn't used for AP grinding

Which is interesting because last time I checked people were praising Legion and considering it a good expansion, yet I keep reading everwhere that "MUH RAIDS" even though ACTUAL NUMBERS are proving you wrong, that apparently players are leaving everywhere, that Classic, the almost dead game, is apparently 3x the size of BFA and the playerbase at this point is in the hundreds.

Incredible how a dying game is still even with the numbers of Legion, huh?

If anything, the conversation should actually be about the casual guilds and the ways to obtain gear below mythic level, since even though the mythic numbers are the same, the HC numbers are +9000 for Nighthold and +7000 for ToS

There's someone yet again completely oblivious to his lack of perspective.
By comparing Azshara and KJ, you're not even looking at the guilds that are dying right now. Rather compare the 4th bosses: Sisters of the Moon to Ashvane.
On Antorus release we had 5554 kills on the sisters. We're at 3889 for Ashvane. Incredible how these numbers aren't even close to each other, right?

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Raiding used to be a logistic and strategic endeavour. It used to be about preparation and maximizing your dps/hps/tps while following a simple tactic.

It slowly shifted towards an action game. Sure, world firsts and anything near that still require perfect throughput but the emphasis has long been shifted from preparation and strategy to dexterity. That's why I've finished raiding several expansions ago. It's a totally different game now and I won't come back to raiding until it's back to its roots. I guess that will never happen.

Logistics, preparation and maximization are still on top of it. But it sure feels like there's more of a burden on individual players to complete the dance and spiel.
Not that that's all that wrong. It's just prone to be exhausting.

[huynh995]

Legend always means the hardest content, surely you no longer love it

[Kralljin]

Yes but the point is that the scaling is normalized in terms of increase per corruption for it, which is fine

No, it's not.
The Crit damage affix is much more valueable than its counterparts, especially the Leech / Avoidance affix for dps.

Don't pretend there is no massive difference between getting the right affix and the wrong one.

And thats good cause this means you can play around (sim) the diff combinations you can come up with, since every spec should have a diff sweet spot, if corruption was scarce, then you would use w/e you have.

You do realize that people just pay Raidbots money to sim every possible combination in a single sim?
That's your idea of "playing around".

and the stat affixes will make the soft cap of some specs easier to reach

Caps are dead mate.
It's all about relative values to each other nowadays, which actually do require simulations to figure out.

And the customization part, yeah in the end its all going to raidbots, but you come up with maybe 2 diff combinations of corruption pieces and you sim both, this is better than titanforge since you had to come up with these 2 combinations by yourself first, all in all not *that* braindead gearing.

That's like trying to tell me that Titanforging offered customization because i had to sim a piece, which has a socket but terrible stats otherwise, as the socket might actually turned it into an upgrade.

Like, this is not customization nor depth if all people do is to go raidbots, this is no different from Titanforging, except you have to resort to it even more often.
This is the fundamental issue of the system, the more randomization you throw into it, the more people will rely on sims to figure out what's best.

[potis]

This is just a thread filled with casuals who pat themselves in the back in the attempt of bolstering their echo chamber of "mythic bad, casuals good" as the excuse why their raid/guild died or is stuck on a boss

1900 guilds killed mythic jaina - 2000 guilds killed mythic gul'dan

825 guilds killed mythic azshara - 890 guilds killed mythic kil'jaeden, with months and months left to catch up on this

Not to mention participation of unique characters in M+ is also beating/evening out Legion, even though BFA M+ isn't used for AP grinding


Which is interesting because last time I checked people were praising Legion and considering it a good expansion, yet I keep reading everwhere that "MUH RAIDS" even though ACTUAL NUMBERS are proving you wrong, that apparently players are leaving everywhere, that Classic, the almost dead game, is apparently 3x the size of BFA and the playerbase at this point is in the hundreds.

Incredible how a dying game is still even with the numbers of Legion, huh?

If anything, the conversation should actually be about the casual guilds and the ways to obtain gear below mythic level, since even though the mythic numbers are the same, the HC numbers are +9000 for Nighthold and +7000 for ToS

Its the same average post that appears every expansion from someone as to why their guild died, its not surprising, they cant accept that they arent as good as they think or they simply got burnt out (Which is usually the reason, the better players get burnt out from carrying and going nowhere for months) because Blizzard forgot to nerf everything at the 3rd month, and did it at the 6th as they did in EP, which is generally terrible design.

Tweak shit more at the start, dont touch them afterwards, let people get what they can get.

Reality though is scaling is a -bit- all over the place more than usual, overall interest has gone done raiding wise, mostly because gearing up is way too fast and you can be done in a matter of few weeks in a semi-competent guild.

I mean..I dont even raid Mythic and i am 448 (bags)/446 equipped since end July averagely, same with at least 10-15 people that havent logged on since then, random burnt out ex-Mythic raiders that joined my HC only guild, cleaved it down in 2 weeks and disappeared by the 4th-5th week.

Mythic raiding might not have gone down last boss kill wise, but overall population is definitely lower, and much lower at that, generally its not good for the health of the raiding scene overall.

Even if they are bad or "going nowhere" guilds, they are still "Health".

[Accendor]

The only people who hate on "raid loggers" are people who have low skill but lots of time on their hands and think good game design is gating content behind obnoxious grinds so they can belong to the elite club of "I play video games 40h a week therefore I'm good".

As a CE raider I can tell you that I hate on raid loggers not because of my "low skill" and my "much time" (working fulltime, have a family), but because it removes any sense from a community feeling and makes everybody replaceable - and I dont like that.

[Alydael]

When I look to current raiding, what I see is the inevitable end of raiding. Blizzard needs to adapt or raiding dies because the dollars soon make no sense.

Participation rates need to go up dramatically for raiding to survive. Goals like world first race, CE, AoTC can still exist while at the same time driving participation rates up via gradual nerfing of content. So for example world first race has no nerfs and is done after 10 guilds kill Mythic last boss, CE is capped at first xxx guilds... Those achievement come with a reward (awesome transmog for example)

Problem is almost all the people capable of world first or CE are incapable of seeing the bigger picture, as such they have no desire to see it change.

Question already being asked at Blizzard is "Why spend millions of dollars on 0.7% of the subscribers, when could move that spend over to 70+% of subscribers"

Bottom line, raiding is dying and M+ will be the replacement.

I agree with you and I am surprised more people aren't seeing this? Look at the raid completion rates this x-pac (and even last x-pac). They are way down. If it doesn't change, I expect some big changes coming to raids at some point. I thought it would have happened already, but Blizz isn't the most proactive.

The current completion rate on raids does not justify the dev time they take. They need to find a way to increase engagement in the raids.

Here are the problems (I think):

1) Raids haven't changed enough. We have been "Stack on this, don't stand in that, run out of the raid when you get and blow hero and your cd's at the start of ph 3" for 15 years now
2) Player base has aged somewhat and probably has less time each week to do things like raid.
3) Elitism surely plays a part. I talk to people that won't even try out a raid team because of past bad experiences.
4) The random reward structure in the raids sucks. Nobody wants to spend 6 hours a week taking down the biggest badies in the game and walk away with nothing for your time.

That's just off the top of my head, there is probably more if you really study the situation. I can think of some great ideas to increase engagement [in just the 5 mins writing this], its surprising that Blizz has been unable to come up with anything worthwhile.

This is how I would change it:
1) No more LFR. Three difficulties are enough. Have a que'ed version of normal and a version that you join as a party, In the que'ed version (to make up for no voice and not knowing anyone) Blizz uses and add-on to teach you the fights (like the one they disabled in WOTLK because it made the fights too easy). This add-on will train players on the fights and give them confidence to try higher difficulty modes, plus teach them how to raid in general.

2) Bosses are introduced one at a time, once a week through lead in quests. The quests teach you about the boss and how to prepare for their abilities. Only one player in the raid needs to have completed this to do the boss. If you do all the quests- you get a buff that helps you in the raid. The buff does really help but it comes with a cost- gear will be 5 ilevel less if you use it (I.e like how benthic is 425 and heroic is 430) you can turn off the buff when you feel confident. Once the boss is open, all difficulties for that boss are open.

I think this will increases engagement in the raids enormously and guilds will progress further.

3) Guilds have the option of putting their raid up for que (to accept randos). Your guild earns prestige and rewards for the amount of groups it runs each week. Mostly cosmetic.

4) Since blizz likes world first race- run it separately as they have in the past until 100 guilds clear it.

Seems like a no brainer to me. I just don't see how they can continue to pour so much resources into raids, with such small completion rates if they want the game to be healthy and not shedding people.

It would be like a taco stand that also sold burgers. Except less than 10% of the customers order the burger but the taco stand is spending 60% of their resources in order to offer this burger.

There is no successful business doing that in this world, period.

[Celestraza]

So I just relogged on retail for 3 days and talked to some mythic raiders/GM's still "surviving" (3 hours to level 110 to 120 and 2 days to get to 400ilvl and do Mecha/Nazjantar dailies).

I think a big issue is the gear progression not working at all. Getting to 400ilvl was a breeze with dailies and benthic gear. However I now hit a brick wall. I have huge issues getting into content of my own itemlevel. I even struggle to get into Mythic+0 (which drops 400ilvl gear) and normal raids. It seems I am competing with guys at 415+ ilvl people for even something simple as mythic+0...... I don't understand why people of such high itemlevels are doing content that are well below their average itemlevel. But I am seeing it in all my dungeon runs. And there really is no reliable content left to get geared for mythic raids.

At this point the only way for me to gear up is to abuse a lower ranking mythic raiding guild and use them as a stepping stone. And apparently this is exactly what is happening according to some old GMs I got in contact with who are struggling massively this tier. With a mass exodus of raiders also comes a mass amount of new trials using mythic guilds as stepping stones causing so much issues that they can't get proper raids going.

Imho there are only two ways to solve this:
1. Templates for mythic raids. This would actually solve a lot of things. Including cheesing with certain gear. It also enables lower mythic guilds to also abuse class stacking as high end guilds usually require a mandatory few alts. I hear in this tier the FOTM are shadow priests.
2. Set an itemlevel cap in M+. I do not enjoy doing M+ with super geared people. I'd rather do M+ with ilvl appropriate players and this way people who actually need the gear and for whom the content was designed for can actually do it.

I'd favor a dual system. Optional templates for mythic raids which increase in power every week. If you are ahead of the gear curse (like most top 500 mythic guilds) you don't need to use them. But for more casual guilds, recruitment and getting players to try raiding an optional template would be a solution. However the templates should start off weak but get stronger every week so that after many weeks the template is strong enough to kill the last raid boss.

[potis]

So I just relogged on retail for 3 days and talked to some mythic raiders/GM's still "surviving" (3 hours to level 110 to 120 and 2 days to get to 400ilvl and do Mecha/Nazjantar dailies).

I think a big issue is the gear progression not working at all. Getting to 400ilvl was a breeze with dailies and benthic gear. However I now hit a brick wall. I have huge issues getting into content of my own itemlevel. I even struggle to get into Mythic+0 (which drops 400ilvl gear) and normal raids. It seems I am competing with guys at 415+ ilvl people for even something simple as mythic+0...... I don't understand why people of such high itemlevels are doing content that are well below their average itemlevel. But I am seeing it in all my dungeon runs. And there really is no reliable content left to get geared for mythic raids.

At this point the only way for me to gear up is to abuse a lower ranking mythic raiding guild and use them as a stepping stone. And apparently this is exactly what is happening according to some old GMs I got in contact with who are struggling massively this tier. With a mass exodus of raiders also comes a mass amount of new trials using mythic guilds as stepping stones causing so much issues that they can't get proper raids going.

Imho there are only two ways to solve this:
1. Templates for mythic raids. This would actually solve a lot of things. Including cheesing with certain gear. It also enables lower mythic guilds to also abuse class stacking as high end guilds usually require a mandatory few alts. I hear in this tier the FOTM are shadow priests.
2. Set an itemlevel cap in M+. I do not enjoy doing M+ with super geared people. I'd rather do M+ with ilvl appropriate players and this way people who actually need the gear and for whom the content was designed for can actually do it.

Your whole post is just..Wrong.

99% of WoW population needs literally 15-20 item levels above the content because they do 30% of what they are supposed to do, and even then, they still manage to fail/wipe.

Thats why you see 415 people in M+0, because they are being carried by gear, the same applies all the way to Mythic raiding and why this thread exists, gear cant carry Eternal Palace progress because Blizzard didnt add a 10% while nerfing the raid by another 10% in the 3-5 month mark.

What you are experiencing is called "being behind the curve while trying to progress" which is the cesspool of World of Warcraft, only way out is through people willing to take you out of it, or very very slowly creating your own groups, if you actually have the skill/time to do so yourself.

And templates for raiding, lol.

Or guess what? Dont unsub,find stable people that want to play with you/your timetable and dont return and demand people to play with you when you are in 9 month old gear levels.

[Celestraza]

Your whole post is just..Wrong.

99% of WoW population needs literally 15-20 item levels above the content because they do 30% of what they are supposed to do, and even then, they still manage to fail/wipe.

Thats why you see 415 people in M+0, because they are being carried by gear, the same applies all the way to Mythic raiding and why this thread exists, gear cant carry Eternal Palace progress because Blizzard didnt add a 10% while nerfing the raid by another 10% in the 3-5 month mark.

What you are experiencing is called "being behind the curve while trying to progress" which is the cesspool of World of Warcraft, only way out is through people willing to take you out of it, or very very slowly creating your own groups, if you actually have the skill/time to do so yourself.

How is my post wrong? I only stated objectively what I experienced and did not speculate on why I am seeing people doing low ilvl content. I do however find this to be an issue. I also think the 99% number is a bit of bullshit and quite elitist to be fair...

However as I mentioned, introducing itemlevel caps to M+ would help these masses of players who are behind this "curve" you speak of. They should then be able to get in ilvl appropriate content to get appropriate ilvl gear or be forced to improve themselves to get through this content. It might even kill off the Mythic+ boost groups which is also awful honestly.