BWL/AQ/Naxx will be demolished with ease.

[OriginalName]

I agree with failing being more punishing in classic,but it not being harder?cmon,thats just silly

I can pretty safely say that, if you're doing 2 hour MC clears now, your guild will not survive AQ, without some really sweeping changes, momatter how easy the individual bosses are in the preceding raids.

[deenman]

this exactly. many if not ALL 40 man raids drop bis pieces for the entire game, time wise. if you are in a 2 day a week guild, theres not enough time between phases to gear everyone up to sufficiently squash the gear check that is pachwerk. that is the only boss that will wall guilds who are not ready for him.

its a different kind of difficulty.

the dps people are doing in mc today is way stronger than they did in vanila,just look at private servers in bwl,crushing bosses like vael and patchwerk,servers that even buff these raids to offer an actual challenge,patchwerk is a joke in comparison to more modern dps checks like say guarm,and even guarm becomes a joke once you get better gear(unless healers fuck it up lol)

[owbu]

Looking at the responses you seen to be arguing against people that have stopped existing.

Yeah there was a lot of crazies here on the forum before launch but at this point noone seems to argue that the top guilds will clear everything instantly.

[deenman]

I can pretty safely say that, if you're doing 2 hour MC clears now, your guild will not survive AQ, without some really sweeping changes, momatter how easy the individual bosses are in the preceding raids.

ah I see your point,yeah thats fair,but mc was cleared in blues and non 60's,no way AQ is going to be such an insane jump in difficulty that actual 60's with some raid gear cant handle,nature resist proly wont even be needed for huhuran if we go by the far better dps people are doing today in mc than compared to vanila

[OriginalName]

ah I see your point,yeah thats fair,but mc was cleared in blues and non 60's,no way AQ is going to be such an insane jump in difficulty that actual 60's with some raid gear cant handle,nature resist proly wont even be needed for huhuran if we go by the far better dps people are doing today in mc than compared to vanila

You say that, but the average mc clear time is still 2 hours, which is like 80 minutes slower than my guild.

I'm not saying that bosses aren't easy, they are, more people wipe on destroyers, hounds, asspulls than they do on bosses in mc.

As an example, I joined a MC guild pug on my friends' character who has never raided before in her life, she wanted to get leaf but hates social interaction, so as a favour I did it for her, that pug took 4 hours, without any boss wipes until rag, because every loot distribution took about 10-20 minutes with rolls & discussion, arguing.

I don't pug, but if this is your generic & average pugging environment, you can't turn around and say that classic is the easiest content ever, I mean are you even doing the content if you're doing it 10 times slower than the rest?

[deenman]

You say that, but the average mc clear time is still 2 hours, which is like 80 minutes slower than my guild.

I'm not saying that bosses aren't easy, they are, more people wipe on destroyers, hounds, asspulls than they do on bosses in mc.

As an example, I joined a MC guild pug on my friends' character who has never raided before in her life, she wanted to get leaf but hates social interaction, so as a favour I did it for her, that pug took 4 hours, without any boss wipes until rag, because every loot distribution took about 10-20 minutes with rolls & discussion, arguing.

I don't pug, but if this is your generic & average pugging environment, you can't turn around and say that classic is the easiest content ever, I mean are you even doing the content if you're doing it 10 times slower than the rest?

doesnt like social interactions but plays classic?yikes you cant clear a cave quest as most classes with no social interactions

[Timewalker]

Retail stuff get cleared pretty fast too. When people say Vanilla is hard, they didn't mean for modern gamers of 2020. They meant relative to its time period. Vanilla still has highest average times for the raids to be cleared. The times just got lower as time went on.

Then was back when people clicked their spells with the mouse. And didn't know jack sh't. I am convinced that "unkillable" C'Thun would be 110% possible by todays standard. <APES> would kill the so called "Unkillable" C'Thun without a doubt in my mind.

- - - Updated - - -

If Naxx stands for longer than 24 hours I will be genuinely shocked. BWL will be cleared in 4-5 hours.

[meheez]

Probably by some people.

Others will be wiping for months.

[OriginalName]

doesnt like social interactions but plays classic?yikes

Whatever really, my point was that I think the average player who does MC right now, irrelevant of how easy the content is, is not good enough to clear even basic stuff like AQ in a year/few months, because they simply don't have the mentality, or their guild isn't constructed with longevity in mind.

They will all crash and burn, so if you wanna be raiding in AQ, you better find yourself a guild with 30-40 min clear times, now or you'll be very sorry.

[Kralljin]

I agree with failing being more punishing in classic,but it not being harder?cmon,thats just silly

The problem is that Retail has multiple difficulties, so to which one you want to compare it?

Mythic? Well obviously Retail is much harder there.
LFR? Hm, it gets tricky there, because any remotely deadly mechanic in LFR needs to have its teeth pulled.

Take Onyxia for example, it's a joke of a boss by modern standards.
Yet i've been in pugs where we wiped on Onyxia. Multiple times.

Why?
1.Tanks aren't good enough to generate threat, so Ony rampants through the entire raid after P2
2.Dps pulling Aggro and roasting half of the raid with the breath
3.People being unable to dodge Deep Breath
4.All of the above happening, you're still standing with 5-10 people, managed to stabilize the situation, then someone gets knocked into whelps

It's not difficult, but abilities can actually kill you without giving you 5+ seconds to react to it after being hit.
You got hit by the breath? You're dead. Period.

Or take even something basic as questing.
In Classic, i have to approach most camps rather carefully, pull one mob at a time, perhaps keep a slow / stun ready if they're running away at low hp.
Nothing "difficult" but some strategy is really helpful if you want to do quests without being in trouble constantly.

In Retail, you just waltz into every group because your character can handle 3-5 mobs easily, if not, you just blow some cd's and mow them down anyway.

The difficulty of Classic is: Don't stand in the fire, because if you do, you're dead.
The basic difficulty of Retail is: You need a deathwish in order to die.

The difference just is, Retail goes all the way up to "a single mistep will result in a wipe" difficulty.

[facefist]

The fun of MMORPGs has never been their difficulty, as they usually have rather low skillcap. Classic (or retail) is no exception to that, even though classic is significantly easier in terms of PvP competitiveness and high-end pve.

Looking at the responses you seen to be arguing against people that have stopped existing.

Yeah there was a lot of crazies here on the forum before launch but at this point noone seems to argue that the top guilds will clear everything instantly.

There were shitloads of people claiming that first week MC is impossible as well. How wrong they were...

[Nnyco]

Retail stuff get cleared pretty fast too. When people say Vanilla is hard, they didn't mean for modern gamers of 2020. They meant relative to its time period. Vanilla still has highest average times for the raids to be cleared. The times just got lower as time went on.

The thing is tho, ony and mc had people level up first and AQ/bwl were buggy for a long time.

[bmjclark]

People are already doing a good bit more dps than is required of the dps check boss in Naxx, of course everythings going to fall over. I honestly bet BWL is cleared in under 2 hours after phase 3s launch.

[ONCHEhap]

C'thun is probably the first actually difficult boss, atleast a big step-up over everything before. You won't be able to carry a lot of bad players through there since there's personal responsibility to spread out and not beam the entire raid. There's a lot more personal pressure in Naxx too on bosses like Thaddius where one idiot can wipe your entire raid or Loatheb where you have to bring consumables for every pull.

I'm curious to see how far my guild will go, we're a 50/50 mix of casuals and min-maxers. Having good internet and decent computers these days will be a big help too.

Honestly,I'd say Nefarian is the first difficult boss.
Of course,nothing compared to what you have in retail,but he's an order of magnitude compared to anything else in BWL,as well as the entirety of MC

Decent raiding guilds will manage without much of an issue,but I can see a lot of guilds struggle to get past him

[OriginalName]

There were shitloads of people claiming that first week MC is impossible as well. How wrong they were...

To be fair though, none of those people were private server players, they're all tourists who have long gone now.

[deenman]

The problem is that Retail has multiple difficulties, so to which one you want to compare it?

Mythic? Well obviously Retail is much harder there.
LFR? Hm, it gets tricky there, because any remotely deadly mechanic in LFR needs to have its teeth pulled.

Take Onyxia for example, it's a joke of a boss by modern standards.
Yet i've been in pugs where we wiped on Onyxia. Multiple times.

Why?
1.Tanks aren't good enough to generate threat, so Ony rampants through the entire raid after P2
2.Dps pulling Aggro and roasting half of the raid with the breath
3.People being unable to dodge Deep Breath
4.All of the above happening, you're still standing with 5-10 people, managed to stabilize the situation, then someone gets knocked into whelps

It's not difficult, but abilities can actually kill you without giving you 5+ seconds to react to it after being hit.
You got hit by the breath? You're dead. Period.

Or take even something basic as questing.
In Classic, i have to approach most camps rather carefully, pull one mob at a time, perhaps keep a slow / stun ready if they're running away at low hp.
Nothing "difficult" but some strategy is really helpful if you want to do quests without being in trouble constantly.

In Retail, you just waltz into every group because your character can handle 3-5 mobs easily, if not, you just blow some cd's and mow them down anyway.

The difficulty of Classic is: Don't stand in the fire, because if you do, you're dead.
The basic difficulty of Retail is: You need a deathwish in order to die.

The difference just is, Retail goes all the way up to "a single mistep will result in a wipe" difficulty.

well even in lfr there are some bosses that end up being harder than a normal or heroic boss in an organized group,some lfr bosses have even recieved multiple big nerfs like archimonde

[Uurdz]

- Within, of course, the time allowed via gating/grinding. The actual bosses will go down like flies in a window on a summers day.

This isn't criticism of the game, but a wake-up call to those who think Classic was just "hard" and that no amount of player experience will change that: you are completely wrong. This content will be a cake-walk for any reasonably experienced guild. People put MC being cleared so fast down to 1.12: trust me, it would have been cleared in the same time even in an earlier patch.

And when this starts, I'm expecting to see the usual conspiracy theories about "stealth nerfs" and whatnot. Just accept you're not going to be waiting for months on end to see bosses fall. Concentrate on your progress and enjoyment of the game, ultimately

Your Hybrid is still not getting a raid spot btw.

[Kralljin]

well even in lfr there are some bosses that end up being harder than a normal or heroic boss in an organized group

I call bullshit.

some lfr bosses have even recieved multiple big nerfs like archimonde

Why do you think these bosses received nerfs?
Because their difficulty was above the intended.

LFR bosses are meant to be facerolled, if any boss is making a fuss, it gets nerfed to that point.
That's the point i'm making, LFR isn't even supposed to pretend it has any sort of difficulty, telling me that Blizzard does actually nerf LFR Bosses just proves this to me.

[Logwyn]

Retail stuff get cleared pretty fast too. When people say Vanilla is hard, they didn't mean for modern gamers of 2020.

Until you can clear Battletoads from beginning to end you aren't a good gamer anyway.

[talwynn]

Retail stuff get cleared pretty fast too. When people say Vanilla is hard, they didn't mean for modern gamers of 2020. They meant relative to its time period. Vanilla still has highest average times for the raids to be cleared. The times just got lower as time went on.

I can't find the numbers, but I wonder how many pulls each of the vanilla bosses took to clear. I think that is a much better indicator of how difficult a boss is. Vanilla Rag was also time-gated back then. You could only attempt him for 1 hour per week (later changed to 2 hours), and if you did wipe, you didn't just run back into the instance, you had to run through BRD to get to him. If you took away the player's knowledge and skill level present in retail, but gave them modern advantages of you know ressing in the instance near the boss and have a full 7 days worth of attempts in a raid lockout, he would have died sooner than that 154 weeks.