BWL/AQ/Naxx will be demolished with ease.

[Jastall]

What? Why should it be accessible? I don't know that much about retail, but I sincerely doubt Classic's difficulty is superior. It is ridiculously easy and the classes are faceroll. I love it, but to claim the difficulty is a "good" design is a bit baffling to me since the hardest content is being pugged with ease.

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You don't even need flasks or world buffs lol. If you want to min/max and go for ranks, then sure, but to simply clear content it's unreal easy!

Very true, and you don't need to go for the insane amount of prep Method and co. do in order to clear Mythic, but it does allow you to do it faster. Admittedly AQ40 and (especially) Naxx will require more preparation than Molten Core, but claiming that Classic has harder logistics than Mythic is nuts.

[arkanon]

If a mechanic straight up kills people in LFR, it's overtuned and gets nerfed, Classic bosses can still kill people.

This is absolutely false in almost every single encounter - multiple LFR fights have one shot mechanics, and many even have mechanics that not only kill you, but risk killing others. You either know this, and are intentionally being dishonest to fit your narrative, or you have zero experience with any of the last few expacs LFR. Some fights are on par with MC, some are much harder. Nothing in classic comes even close to Normals harder bosses, let alone even being on the same difficulty scale as heroic.

The level of dishonesty in the classic community never fails to stun me.

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Very true, and you don't need to go for the insane amount of prep Method and co. do in order to clear Mythic, but it does allow you to do it faster. Admittedly AQ40 and (especially) Naxx will require more preparation than Molten Core, but claiming that Classic has harder logistics than Mythic is nuts.

Some people said the same about MC, although after that myth was crushed the narrative VERY quickly changed to "no one EVER said MC would be hard!"

[Kanegasi]

Classic is tuned to 1.12. Of course MC was ridiculously fast and easy, it was nerfed to the ground by 1.12. Naxx was still a challenge just before BC dropped. The "cutting edge" guilds are going to drop Naxx within the first lockout just like any Mythic race, but don't expect anywhere near the majority of players to farm Naxx, let alone clear it.

[Protean]

He's just telling people who think classic is "hard" is wrong. That isn't a complaint.

Who might that be?

I haven't heard from those people since MC got completely wrecked week1. You'd almost think OPs thread is meaningless because a lesson was already learned.

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If a mechanic straight up kills people in LFR, it's overtuned and gets nerfed, Classic bosses can still kill people.

How much time do you spend in LFR on average per week?

[Kralljin]

This is absolutely false in almost every single encounter

I'd consider to rephrase that.

- multiple LFR fights have one shot mechanics

Okay, let's use EP as guideline.

Sivara - Overflowing Venom / Chill do 160K, won't kill a player.
Bememoth - People get killed if they swim over the abyss with the heal debuff, so we got (1)
Radiance - Nothing
Ashvane - Nothing
Orgozoa - Dribbling Ichor does ~110k damage, won't one shot people
Court - Frenzied Charge could kill an undergeared player, if they also happen to stand completely isolated, so (2) (which is rather generous tbh)
Za'qul - Tentacles do 160k, won't kill a player
Azshara - Nothing can one shot a player

So, out of 9 bosses, we got 2, which also only do kill a single person, whereas Onyxia's Breath kills half of your raid if a single(!) person screws up.
Not to mention what Deep Breath does with your average Ony pug if it occurs.

Your average MC Boss has a better track record at killing people because of aggro itself, which straight up murders any (melee).
Not to mention that even if you wipe on an LFR boss, you get a stacking 5% damage/healing/health buff.

Nothing in classic comes even close to Normals harder bosses, let alone even being on the same difficulty scale as heroic.

Not much with this discussion, as i never claimed that.

How much time do you spend in LFR on average per week?

Counter question, how much time do you spend in Ony / MC pugs?
You know, at least average ones, not the ones where the leader checks every player whether they're remotely competent.

[Jastall]

Some people said the same about MC, although after that myth was crushed the narrative VERY quickly changed to "no one EVER said MC would be hard!"

Oh, indeed, I remember that as well. The revisionist history is quite fun to watch unfold, as is the notion that MC was the outlier. Now that anyone halfway serious at raiding is mostly in raid gear, and the top Classic guilds are fully decked out in BiS or close enough to it, the subsequent raids will fall like a bunch of dominoes. Naxx may hold out a day at most and will be harder to pug for sure, but not anywhere near the extent of all but the very easiest Mythic bosses.

[Nitros14]

Nothing in classic comes even close to Normals harder bosses, let alone even being on the same difficulty scale as heroic. "

Talk about dishonest. I've done normal Legion and BFA raids. Normal is something you go in on the first day to see the content and one shot everything. Most of the mechanics on normal are ignorable or completely half-assable at best, it's family and friends difficulty. We killed normal Azshara on the first pull with no idea how anything worked.

Here's our log from normal Antorus on the day of release, https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ajmDvfQGJKpAcRrb it's just a one shot fest of nothing happening.

There are some reasonably difficult bosses in Naxxramas unless you stack world buffs and elixirs and flask the whole raid.

[arkanon]

Talk about dishonest. We killed normal Azshara on the first pull with no idea how anything worked.

Yes, lets talk about dishonesty - were you in appropriate gear to be doing normal? or were you fully decked in mythic gear from the previous tier? Because if its the latter, thats the equivalent of being in full BiS naxx gear, and then bragging about 1 shotting MC.

Normal mode is for players geared to be completing normal. Not for mythic raiders to overpower and feel their epeen swell. If you wanna do it, fine, no problem. But the very suggestion that a group of players who usually complete normal mode, and are geared from normal mode previous tier, would walk into ANY new raid in any recent expansion and simply 1 shot everything with zero knowledge is exactly the level of dishonesty i am talking about.

[Echocho]

It is very challenging for me.

If heroic is too easy for you then Classic can't possibly be challenging. Classic is even easier than LFR, for most encounters you stand completely still and spam your 1-2 button rotation.

[Timewalker]

Kel Thuzad will be on farm after the first week.

[Nitros14]

Yes, lets talk about dishonesty - were you in appropriate gear to be doing normal? or were you fully decked in mythic gear from the previous tier? Because if its the latter, thats the equivalent of being in full BiS naxx gear, and then bragging about 1 shotting MC.

Normal mode is for players geared to be completing normal. Not for mythic raiders to overpower and feel their epeen swell. If you wanna do it, fine, no problem. But the very suggestion that a group of players who usually complete normal mode, and are geared from normal mode previous tier, would walk into ANY new raid in any recent expansion and simply 1 shot everything with zero knowledge is exactly the level of dishonesty i am talking about.

No one's in 'appropriate' gear to be doing normal because the game spews loot at you from a million directions. Even doing basic M+ to +10 will give you full heroic gear in a very short time period.

There are no groups 'geared from normal mode the previous tier'. Better gear than normal rains from the sky.

The number of groups that usually complete 'only normal mode' is very small. Normal mode is pathetically easy, let's be honest with ourselves here.

[arkanon]

No one's in 'appropriate' gear to be doing normal because the game spews loot at you from a million directions. Even doing basic M+ to +10 will give you full heroic gear in a very short time period.

There are no groups 'geared from normal mode the previous tier'. Better gear than normal rains from the sky.

The number of groups that usually complete 'only normal mode' is very small. Normal mode is pathetically easy, let's be honest with ourselves here.

On day one? REALLY? please tell me more. If these players are capable of +10 and higher at the start of a new season (what is being discussed) when the difficulty is at its highest compared to gear, then they are more than capable of doing full normal clear, and should be raiding heroic or mythic, so why would they be raiding normal?. Players like us who clear heroic and mythic generally really struggle to understand that they are the extreme minority, and that the overwhelming majority of players find normal mode tough, and generally dont step out of LFR, if even that.

and the dishonesty continues - you imply that a person can become heroically geared "very quickly" (compared to day 1 of the new raid, so you must mean in hours) by simply doing +2, a +4/5 a +6/7 and a +10? This is just completely false.

So whats the point exactly? That in a couple of months, you can massively overgear the content, and then go back and complete it and say "see, easy!"

Again, this is the equivalent of obtaining naxx gear, then going back and clearing MC and flapping on about how "easy" it is.

[Nitros14]

On day one? REALLY? please tell me more.

The gearing period in retail in almost non-existent, most people are in near full heroic gear in a week, maybe two. So yeah I guess for one day normal is slightly challenging for a select few rather poor players. The thing about normal though is that the numbers checks are tuned to be non-existent so it's just half-ass your way through some barely functional mechanics.

I've pugged lots of normal raids, they're incredibly forgiving.


If you put these players that find normal mode tough and generally don't step out of LFR into Naxxramas 60 they're going to struggle intensely.

So whats the point exactly? That in a couple of months, you can massively overgear the content, and then go back and complete it and say "see, easy!"

A couple of months? We one shot normal raids in nothing better than normal gear. Mythic gear of one tier is = to normal gear of the next tier.

[Dziubla]

But hes correct and each will be cleared within the week of their release (and access).

That's a weird way of spelling "hours".

[arkanon]

Oh, indeed, I remember that as well. The revisionist history is quite fun to watch unfold, as is the notion that MC was the outlier. Now that anyone halfway serious at raiding is mostly in raid gear, and the top Classic guilds are fully decked out in BiS or close enough to it, the subsequent raids will fall like a bunch of dominoes. Naxx may hold out a day at most and will be harder to pug for sure, but not anywhere near the extent of all but the very easiest Mythic bosses.

Normal*, but i agree.

[Nitros14]

That's a weird way of spelling "hours".

There's tons of guilds that have been clearing these raids for 15 years. No one should be surprised that guilds that have literally farmed a raid for years can clear it again quickly.

[arkanon]

The gearing period in retail in almost non-existent, most people are in near full heroic gear in a week, maybe two.

This is absolute garbage, viewed through your tiny little group of personal friends. The overwhelming majority of players dont even complete a +2, EVER, let alone being fully heroic geared in a week. This is just utter bullshit, spewed to fit a narrative.

And there we have it - a fully mythically geared group downed a normal raid! omfg you must be so proud. This is just embarrassing now, if you cant understand the difference between difficulty and rewards. The DIFFICULTY curve of the NEW raid is not intended to provide any challenge for a group fully decked out in gear that matches the REWARDS from that tier. You cant possibly be that dumb can you?

It would take a couple of months of farming low level keys (sub +10 as you suggest) to get "fully heroicly geared"

[Nitros14]

This is absolute garbage, viewed through your tiny little group of personal friends. The overwhelming majority of players dont even complete a +2, EVER, let alone being fully heroic geared in a week. This is just utter bullshit, spewed to fit a narrative.

You're talking about players that don't even raid. What do they matter in a discussion about raiding?

Also you're misquoting me. I said nearly fully heroic geared in a week.

And there we have it - a fully mythically geared group downed a normal raid! omfg you must be so proud. This is just embarrassing now, if you cant understand the difference between difficulty and rewards. The DIFFICULTY curve of the NEW raid is not intended to provide any challenge for a group fully decked out in gear that matches the REWARDS from that tier. You cant possibly be that dumb can you?

You seem to be deeply confused about how raiding actually works in retail. Within a couple weeks even casual raiders will mostly have the rewards from normal raids just from doing world quests and a weekly M+. No one is doing normal in gear 30 ilvl's below what it drops because again, heroic gear from the last tier rains from the sky from a bunch of different sources.

[arkanon]

You're talking about players that don't even raid. What do they matter in a discussion about raiding?

Also you're misquoting me. I said nearly fully heroic geared in a week.



You seem to be deeply confused about how raiding actually works in retail. Within a couple weeks even casual raiders will mostly have the rewards from normal raids just from doing world quests and a weekly M+. No one is doing normal in gear 30 ilvl's below what it drops because again, heroic gear from the last tier rains from the sky from a bunch of different sources.

Again, absolutely wrong. About all of it. Tens of thousands of players are doing raids at the correct ilvl, without first farming WQ and M+, or rocking up with gear 2 difficulties higher from the previous tier. You are refusing to accept that you are not the norm - you are the outlier - the overwhelming minority. You are not the average, not the mean, not the status quo.

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In vanilla, we didn't have guides on these bosses, we just winged it until we figured out how to kill them. WoW bosses have always had difficulty primarily dependent on people knowing how to kill them properly.

This differs boss to boss - some are strat heavy, and some are execution / requirements (dps/hps). Some bosses, once you figure out the correct strat for your grp comp, it just falls over. Some, you can know EXACTLY how to kill it, and still spend months wiping because of errors in execution, and more recently, RNG (unfortunately)

[Jazzhands]

this exactly. many if not ALL 40 man raids drop bis pieces for the entire game, time wise. if you are in a 2 day a week guild, theres not enough time between phases to gear everyone up to sufficiently squash the gear check that is pachwerk. that is the only boss that will wall guilds who are not ready for him.

its a different kind of difficulty.

Guilds in MC gear are already doing enough DPS to down Patchwerk. I can do the math for you once I'm home if you're too lazy, takes about 5 minutes. By the time Naxx hits people can likely kill him in a 30 man raid.

Even 4 Horsemen will die week one thanks to the hit % trinket from ZG eliminating the need for a bunch of warriors with tier gear.