Tier Sets: "You think you want them back... but you don't."

[Onikaroshi]

The problem with tier sets is that they take slots that you cannot replace until you get a new tier piece. That means that potential upgrade pieces of gear are ignored in favor of them.

A good way to bring back class sets would be with a new type of gear. Let's call them "blazons". Each blazon corresponds to a named set and has a specific slot where it can be inscribed. When you have 2 blazons of the same set inscribed on your gear, you unlock a set bonus, or even a ring of traits similar to azerite, only instead of being the same ring for each spec is a different ring for each one; when you have 4 blazons of the same set on your gear you unlock the second trait or ring of traits, with the third one unlocked by having 6 blazons.

This system would correct the issue with tier pieces: if you obtain an upgrade you only need to de-inscribe a blazon an inscribe it on the new gear piece.

Also, inscribing all blazons of a set would unlock a collection of cosmetic armor sets; some of them would be generic, but some of them (mainly those coming from raids or PVP) would be class specific.

I mean... Legion tier had 6 pieces and only a 4 piece, that plenty of variety (if you remove legiondaries). Besides, in the past you'd often have pieces you'd hang onto for tiers at a time with no upgrades (specially things like trinkets).

[Nefarious Tea]

I mean the easiest solve for tier sets slot blocking issues is this:

Make tier tokens add the tier set bonus to any piece of gear as an extra effect (like corruption bonuses/negatives), rather than turning into a piece of gear you have to equip.

Why have sets be locked to helm/shoulders/chest/cloak/gloves/legs, when corruption and the gouged N'zoth eyes are clearly a testbed for dynamically adding or removing bonuses on gear?

[Kralljin]

M0 had a weekly lockout, breh.

Every M0 awards one item on average, so you get ~10 items per week if you do all of them.
Which is a pretty decent boost.

You don't get emissary loot way higher itemlevel than your equipped itemlevel. So you had to essentially be in mostly 340 gear to get anything close to 340 gear to come from the emissary.

Nah, you gotta be like below ~10-15 Ilvl and still get the highest rewards.
If you are gearing yourself via world quests, all you have to do is grind WQ's, because those rewards scale with Ilvl, so you are getting higher rewards each day basically.

If you then also throw in titanforging, Warfronts, the random drops from the rares in Arathi (which also were 340), maybe a world boss item, you got there within a week or so.
Especially if you also did some heroics via dungenfinder, which dropped 325.

Were you afk for the "why can't i queue for kara" threads in legion?

Probably grinding AP / Legendaries :/.

Once someone finds a way to engineer a class to use cheesy rotations it inevitably gains traction and becomes rampant. That's a statement that's been true long before Azerite armour existed and will continue to exist even when Azerite armour retires.

What you are using as example is however multiple systems overlapping, not a single system creating that issue.
That's a difference.

It's a really awkward point though that just isn't a big a deal as you're making it out to be

You're showing why i didn't use class specific traits, because some of them stack poorly.
The value of defensive traits doesn't diminish if you stack them.

That's the point, if you prefer Resounding Protection, you should able to have the full power of Resounding Protection, but because it's not present on every item and you generally choose your Azerite items based on offensive traits, you end up with:
1xResounding Protection
1xImpassive Visage
1xRandom trait

Now the effect is spread across multiple traits, rather than just having a single decent one.

It's not moot though, Class specific Azerite traits aren't redesigned arbitrarily every season for the sake of uniqueness. Not only that, you aren't forced to give up your previous set of azerite traits that you may or may not have liked simply because "it's a new tier".

And i prefer it when things get mixed up.
I liked it whenever a new tier came out and you got a slightly different playstyle, kept things interesting within the expansion.
Playing the same build since 8.1, other "builds" (which quite frankly don't really exist) are just worse in every regard.

Azerite could theoretically have the same effect, but Blizzard couldn't be arsed to balance all traits or at the very least, design multiple traits with different niches, let alone give us new ones each patch.
If Trait A gives me a bunch of secondary stats and Trait B a bunch of primary stats...yeah, no thanks.

[Eapoe]

Did you really just call MMO-C "the vocal majority"? Bruh. This place ain't any kind of majority. It's a backwater forum, don't get twisted over it :-P

Yet it is the vocal majority. More people post on here than Blizzard’s own official forums, acting like Blizzard comes to take notes from the people at mmo-c. So yes, unfortunately mmo-c is a place for the vocal people majority that talks about things.
I also enjoy how that’s the only thing in my post you discussed yet had no issue or argument with anything else in it.

[123youshowme]

Every M0 awards one item on average, so you get ~10 items per week if you do all of them.
Which is a pretty decent boost.



Nah, you gotta be like below ~10-15 Ilvl and still get the highest rewards.
If you are gearing yourself via world quests, all you have to do is grind WQ's, because those rewards scale with Ilvl, so you are getting higher rewards each day basically.

If you then also throw in titanforging, Warfronts, the random drops from the rares in Arathi (which also were 340), maybe a world boss item, you got there within a week or so.
Especially if you also did some heroics via dungenfinder, which dropped 325.



Probably grinding AP / Legendaries :/.



What you are using as example is however multiple systems overlapping, not a single system creating that issue.
That's a difference.



You're showing why i didn't use class specific traits, because some of them stack poorly.
The value of defensive traits doesn't diminish if you stack them.

That's the point, if you prefer Resounding Protection, you should able to have the full power of Resounding Protection, but because it's not present on every item and you generally choose your Azerite items based on offensive traits, you end up with:
1xResounding Protection
1xImpassive Visage
1xRandom trait

Now the effect is spread across multiple traits, rather than just having a single decent one.



And i prefer it when things get mixed up.
I liked it whenever a new tier came out and you got a slightly different playstyle, kept things interesting within the expansion.
Playing the same build since 8.1, other "builds" (which quite frankly don't really exist) are just worse in every regard.

Azerite could theoretically have the same effect, but Blizzard couldn't be arsed to balance all traits or at the very least, design multiple traits with different niches, let alone give us new ones each patch.
If Trait A gives me a bunch of secondary stats and Trait B a bunch of primary stats...yeah, no thanks.

the traits aren't that badly balanced outside a couple outliers.
Most classes can mix and match. There's very few classes that stack the same traits for the same situation, so they have, indeed, designed multiple traits with different niches.

I don't see the need for new traits every patch when 1) all the niches are covered and 2) you get new traits heavily tied to the raid's ambience/atmosphere.

You got titanic shit in uldir, troll shit in BoD, arcane/frost shit in AEP, and now corruption shit in Nyalotha. Shit, the gear is more roleplay oriented now than it ever was, cus ragnaros having 9 different sets in his back pocket made no fucking sense whatsoever

[Socialhealer]

I mean... Legion tier had 6 pieces and only a 4 piece, that plenty of variety (if you remove legiondaries). Besides, in the past you'd often have pieces you'd hang onto for tiers at a time with no upgrades (specially things like trinkets).

Yeah but at least 2 of those pieces will have a good chunk of your worst secondary stat so you're never going to want that shit anyway.

[Great Destiny Man]

What you are using as example is however multiple systems overlapping, not a single system creating that issue.
That's a difference.

You're arguing there needs to forward planning on traits to not cause unintended behaviour to rotations. That's literally no different to any game system at all and that's what the Legion example is all about. This really is not a strong point for Azerite armour being a fundamentally worse choice of systems.

You're showing why i didn't use class specific traits, because some of them stack poorly.
The value of defensive traits doesn't diminish if you stack them.

That's the point, if you prefer Resounding Protection, you should able to have the full power of Resounding Protection, but because it's not present on every item and you generally choose your Azerite items based on offensive traits, you end up with:
1xResounding Protection
1xImpassive Visage
1xRandom trait

Now the effect is spread across multiple traits, rather than just having a single decent one.

You only need to admit you have specific wants of the system that I fundamentally disagree with. It's not a case of specific system needs to do what you envisage, only that you have a strong preference for it to be so.

And i prefer it when things get mixed up.
I liked it whenever a new tier came out and you got a slightly different playstyle, kept things interesting within the expansion.
Playing the same build since 8.1, other "builds" (which quite frankly don't really exist) are just worse in every regard.

Azerite could theoretically have the same effect, but Blizzard couldn't be arsed to balance all traits or at the very least, design multiple traits with different niches, let alone give us new ones each patch.
If Trait A gives me a bunch of secondary stats and Trait B a bunch of primary stats...yeah, no thanks.

Different folks, different strokes. Tier sets for me were always hit and miss, there's literally only a handful of them that really jumped out at me. As I've said repeatedly I certainly wouldn't object to Blizzard making more than half assed attempts at balancing traits but system's due to be retired soon anyway, I'd just rather shit like Legendaries with actual decent acquisition methods plug the gap rather than tier sets.

[Kralljin]

the traits aren't that badly balanced outside a couple outliers.
Most classes can mix and match. There's very few classes that stack the same traits for the same situation, so they have, indeed, designed multiple traits with different niches.

Over the last couple of weeks, i've argued over this multiple times, at this point i'm no longer in the mood to repeat the same arguments and argue over the same examples.

The problem isn't just the balance, it's the design, if you have two different bonuses, one of them gives me primary stats and the other gives secondary stats without any real condition tied to, i'm just bored.
Let alone that the pool is extremely diluted with just boring general bonuses, if you have bonuses like Blightborne Infusion, which is basically just a crit trinket proc, then i'm not excited at all.

No thanks, the amount of time that went into developing the Azerite system and actually bringing it into a bearable place was just too much for what we actually got.
I'll stay by it, BfA would have been better if we had received a more polished Essence System + Tier sets right off the bat.

I don't see the need for new traits every patch when 1) all the niches are covered and 2) you get new traits heavily tied to the raid's ambience/atmosphere.

I see it, because i actually want new stuff when a patch comes out, adding new options to existing choices is fine to me.

You got titanic shit in uldir, troll shit in BoD, arcane/frost shit in AEP, and now corruption shit in Nyalotha. Shit, the gear is more roleplay oriented now than it ever was

The issue is that these tier specific traits are completely passive stats bonuses / passive damage procs or just not viable.
In Ny'alotha we receive a single trait, that boosts your secondary stats if you're above 25 corruption, nothing to look forward to.

I mean, we are getting more new essences in 8.3 than traits.
And that single trait we get is a conditional secondary stat boost, because it is the only trait, it will be on virtually any piece out of Ny'alotha (so much customization!).

This just speaks volumes to me that Blizzard has given up on Azerite in favour of the Essence system - and they were absolutely right in that decision.

You only need to admit you have specific wants of the system that I fundamentally disagree with. It's not a case of specific system needs to do what you envisage, only that you have a strong preference for it to be so.

Pretty elaborate way of saying, "it's subjective and disagree".

Different folks, different strokes. Tier sets for me were always hit and miss.

At least they hit sometimes and a big chunk of your character progression wasn't built around it, so it didn't matter as much if you received a bad one for a tier.

Imagine what sort of Azerite system we would have received if it had the small budget of tier set bonuses, because this one thing people need to see: The Azerite system was primarily intended to replace Artifacts, not just tier sets.

[Great Destiny Man]

Pretty elaborate way of saying, "it's subjective and disagree".

What else do you want me to say? On points like this you're tunnel visioned to extreme degree that there's literally no incentive for me to even explore the points further. You're acting like system must change because you say so and that's not an intellectually stimulating conversation.

At least they hit sometimes and a big chunk of your character progression wasn't built around it, so it didn't matter as much if you received a bad one for a tier.

Sure it hit sometimes, but every time a new patch would be rolling around I'd be praying that the new tier sets weren't going to boring and shitty again. It's honestly something I do not miss.

[Kralljin]

You're acting like system must change because you say so and that's not an intellectually stimulating conversation.

I've stated why i dislike the system and what i would have preferred.
If you're reading any demands into this, then that's on you.

Sure it hit sometimes, but every time a new patch would be rolling around I'd be praying that the new tier sets weren't going to boring and shitty again. It's honestly something I do not miss.

Been waiting each patch in BfA for new, interesting Azerite traits, got one so far.
So the track record here isn't exactly better.

[123youshowme]

Over the last couple of weeks, i've argued over this multiple times, at this point i'm no longer in the mood to repeat the same arguments and argue over the same examples.

The problem isn't just the balance, it's the design, if you have two different bonuses, one of them gives me primary stats and the other gives secondary stats without any real condition tied to, i'm just bored.
Let alone that the pool is extremely diluted with just boring general bonuses, if you have bonuses like Blightborne Infusion, which is basically just a crit trinket proc, then i'm not excited at all.

No thanks, the amount of time that went into developing the Azerite system and actually bringing it into a bearable place was just too much for what we actually got.
I'll stay by it, BfA would have been better if we had received a more polished Essence System + Tier sets right off the bat.


I see it, because i actually want new stuff when a patch comes out, adding new options to existing choices is fine to me.


The issue is that these tier specific traits are completely passive stats bonuses / passive damage procs or just not viable.
In Ny'alotha we receive a single trait, that boosts your secondary stats if you're above 25 corruption, nothing to look forward to.

I mean, we are getting more new essences in 8.3 than traits.
And that single trait we get is a conditional secondary stat boost, because it is the only trait, it will be on virtually any piece out of Ny'alotha (so much customization!).

This just speaks volumes to me that Blizzard has given up on Azerite in favour of the Essence system - and they were absolutely right in that decision.



Pretty elaborate way of saying, "it's subjective and disagree".



At least they hit sometimes and a big chunk of your character progression wasn't built around it, so it didn't matter as much if you received a bad one for a tier.

Imagine what sort of Azerite system we would have received if it had the small budget of tier set bonuses, because this one thing people need to see: The Azerite system was primarily intended to replace Artifacts, not just tier sets.

There's only like 1 non-proc stat trait, loyal to the end.
And in the regard of azerite traits, they function exactly like tier bonuses in the past. Some give you a stat, some buff a spell, some reduce cds, some give you a damage proc. Welcome to world of warcraft. No idea what the fuck you're expecting, tbh.


Blizz hasn't given up on traits, or the hoa. it's a system that's growing. you're gonna yell into the void as much as you want, but you're wrong

- - - Updated - - -

I've stated why i dislike the system and what i would have preferred.
If you're reading any demands into this, then that's on you.



Been waiting each patch in BfA for new, interesting Azerite traits, got one so far.
So the track record here isn't exactly better.

You complain about literally everything, nothing would interest you.

[Great Destiny Man]

I've stated why i dislike the system and what i would have preferred.
If you're reading any demands into this, then that's on you.

I'm telling you how it comes across. If you choose not to introspect on it that's your choice.

Been waiting each patch in BfA for new, interesting Azerite traits, got one so far.
So the track record here isn't exactly better.

At least there's the consistency and transparency across the expansion of knowing "x classes azerite traits are shitty and boring, gonna stick with this class for better feel" though.

[Leyre]

The worst feeling about a tier set is when you get an non-set upgrade and can't use it, because tier set bonus is that powerful, so, yeah, i don't miss them and don't want them back

Because getting an azerite piece that its an upgrade on ilvls but not being able to use it because the traits are garbage its SOOOO much better, right?

[The Butt Witch]

You think you want account-bound essences, but you don't.

[darklogrus]

Because getting an azerite piece that its an upgrade on ilvls but not being able to use it because the traits are garbage its SOOOO much better, right?

Nothing like getting a piece 30ilvls higher then what your wearing only to realize you lose about 5k Dps cause its not the right traits..

[123youshowme]

Nothing like getting a piece 30ilvls higher then what your wearing only to realize you lose about 5k Dps cause its not the right traits..

use it for an offspec, problem solved.

[Maljinwo]

I want the class tier set aesthethic, not just a generic cloth/leather/mail/plate

Thats all

[123youshowme]

I want the class tier set aesthethic, not just a generic cloth/leather/mail/plate

Thats all

I want to wear the hides of my vanquished foes, not some random gear that has no business doing in the dungeon i looted it from.

[Kithelle]

Tier sets grant bonuses only by equipping a lot of the set, which ends up taking up many of your equipment slots so you can maintain the bonus even when a piece of armor which would normally be an upgrade is available to you. This prevents players from progressing in power as they would normally through normal gear upgrades, and kind of locks them into handfuls of weaker gear that provide these powerful bonuses together.

A possible solution to this is just being able to have the bonus with even just one piece of the armor, as long as you have one of them equipped. But then you kind of have the inverse - perhaps people don't go after any other tier pieces if they are weaker than non-set pieces, meaning people don't end up collecting the unique appearances of the tier sets at all and are left sometimes with the off-class appearances granted by non-tier armor pieces.

In order to placate the demand for armor, I think the situation needs to be available that lots and lots of loot just needs to be distributed while also the set bonuses can perhaps be acquired by ANY of the given gear that drops in that raid. (Armor dynamically providing your class' set bonus for the tier.) This way, even the normal pieces that drop are all tier pieces, and everything ends up granting the bonus so all you would have to worry about would be getting what gear gives your ideal stats. (And then of course, you only have the bonus of one set at a time, with the most recent or powerful set bonus overwriting the other so people don't just wear one piece of armor from each tier to have all the bonuses.)

Problem with that is there would need to be a new system to put in to regulate it or else you'd have people holding onto a piece of each tier set for numerous bonuses

[darklogrus]

use it for an offspec, problem solved.

Still doesn't change the fact that the traits are just as bad for the offspec. Maybe its all well in good if you barely play the spec or its geared up for the first time. But if your looking ar replacing existing traits, then I run into the same problem..