Did the Trolls build Dazar'alor or did they meet it there?

[Aucald]

Ah, but it doesnt say they are from animals directly or from the well. Was wondering if you made that connection.

From what it says, the trolls didnt emerge from the well, they emerged from the life forms that spread into the wilds, the well having greatly accelerated the cycle (assuming evolution), to the point that tolls can self emerge from one of the more advanced beings.

As it says in the wilds , we cant assume the trolls came from the Well of Eternity like I did in my previous statement, they evolved from creatures who would have come from the well of eternity at some point in their development.

"Chronicle Vol. 1" says that "sentient life forms arose from the wilds" and that the Trolls were among the first and most successful of these life forms. There's no mention of any creatures or beings coming from the Well of Eternity and entering the wilds, as it were; it's just down to the ambient energies of the Well causing these effects. The closer your proximity to the Well's location the more pronounced its effects over time.

[ravenmoon]

"Chronicle Vol. 1" says that "sentient life forms arose from the wilds" and that the Trolls were among the first and most successful of these life forms. There's no mention of any creatures or beings coming from the Well of Eternity and entering the wilds, as it were; it's just down to the ambient energies of the Well causing these effects. The closer your proximity to the Well's location the more pronounced its effects over time.

I thought in thisuniverse, unless otherwise stated, like humans, all living creatures came fromthe Well.


I haven't thought of exactly how the whole process happens. I understand how thedragons came to be, but sentient beings are described as sparks of light and Iassume like elemental, gained flesh form becoming the sapient lifeforms orraces.

Now howthis works with the trolls coming to be , I don’t know.

Whatprocess do you think is happening? Wild gods emerged from the well right? Someof the first beings. However Freya seeds plant and animal life and youinterpret the lore as saying the Wall's ambient energies emanating over Azerothfurther develop those life forms in a cycle of life and rebirth that isaccelerated by it regardless of where they are.

Now someof these creatures in the wilds over the world develop into trolls. Now onegroup of trolls moves to the Well's location, and a combination of its energyplus their study which may or may not involve the hand of Elune, causes thesetrolls to be elevated to a very high intelligence form that matches theirgraceful spirits. These become the night elves and from them all the elf offshoots altered by magic or the lack of it occur. High elves come from the lackof it during the exile (whether something done by the druids or the longer journeyor both) Satyr from Sargeras magical manipulation, Naga from old gods magicalmanipulation, Nightborne from constant ingesting of Nightwell energies as food.
It looksthat the original elf , the night elf is the final form, all the other offshoots are not natural or divine accelerations but by ma population or abuse.Interesting as the way night elves were introduced in WC3 ma UAL made them comeoff as the "super elf", the original, purest and most completeversion...yet it is interesting how since TBC they have come across as theleast and weakest of the elven groups.

At leastthis is how I am nailing it. The light shards that become flesh are whatdevelop into sentient beings, in Azeroth’s case, the Well's energies over theplanet must accelerated these causing g beings like the trolls to come soonerthan normal. Now I don’t know if non sapient t animals are also from lightshards, and if it is the light shard that determines sentient cycles or not. Ifall animals come from light shards, then they must be able to become sapientsentient t beings, however if they don’t, then the races we have must be theonly ones with that capability.

Now inthe case of creatures like Furbolg and Quillboar, they are more like wild godshaving children than animals developing g. Obviously it is not a normalreproductive process, I would think it something more like them imparting theirspirit life energy into certain animals causing these races to emerge. Adifferent process than trolls and elves, dragons, humans and dwarves

[Aucald]

I thought in this universe, unless otherwise stated, like humans, all living creatures came from the Well.

I havent thought of exactly how the whole process happens. I u understand how the dragons came to be, but sentient bei gs are described as sparks of light and I assume like elemental, gained flesh form becoming the sapient lifeforms or races.

Now how this works with the trolls coming to be , I dont know.

What process do you think is happening? Wild gods emerged from the well right? Some of the first bei gs. However Freya seeds plant and animal life and you interpret the lore as saying the Wall's ambient energies emanating over Azeroth further develop those life forms in a cycle of life and rebirth that is accelerated by it regardless of where they are.

Now some of these creatures in the wilds over the world develop into trolls. Now one group of trolls moves to the Well's location, and a combination of its energy plus their study which may or may not involve the hand of Elune, causes these trolls to be elevated to a very high intelligence form that matches their graceful spirits. These become the night elves and from them all the elf off shoots altered by magic or the lack of it occur.. High elves come from the lack of it during the exile (whether something done by the druids or the longer jour ey or both) Satyr from Sargeras magical manipulation, Naga from old gods magical manipulation, Nightborne from constant ingesting of Nightwell energies as food.
It looks that the original elf , the night elf is the final form, all the other off shoots are not natural or divine accelerations but by ma population or abuse. Interesting as the way night elves were introduced in WC3 ma UAL made them come off as the "super elf", the original, purest and most complete version...yet it is interesting how si ce TBC they have come across as the least and weakest of the elven groups.

At least this is how I am malling it. The light shards that become flesh are what develop into sentient beings, in Azeroths case, the Well's energies over the planet must accelerated these causing g beings like the trolls to come sooner than normal. Now I dont know if non sapient t animals are also from light shards, and if it is the light shard that determines sentient cycles or not. If all animals come from light shards, then they must be able to become sapient sentient t beings, however if they dont, then the races we have must be the only ones with that capability.

Now in the case of creatures like Furbolg and Quollboar, they are more like wild gods having children than animals developing g. Obviously it is not a normal reproductive process, I would think it something more like them imparting their spirit life energy into certain animals causing these races to emerge. A different process than trolls and elves, dragons, humans and dwarves

According to "Chronicle Vol. 1", prior to the Ordering (when the Pantheon came to Azeroth) the surface of Azeroth was essentially barren and had little to no organic life - the Elementals, enslaved by the Old Gods, just warred across its surface to entertain their Old God masters while the Old Gods themselves went about the business of corrupting Azeroth's World-Soul while also fighting amongst themselves to see which one of them would be dominant in the end. The presence of the Old Gods did give rise to some forms of organic life themselves: the K'thir, the N'ragi, the Aqir, and the C'Thraxxi - all of them abominations made of the Old Gods' flesh and ichor. Whatever original life Azeroth might've had at this point, such as life arising from the shards of Light in the primeval ages of its creation, were likely destroyed or corrupted by the Old Gods to give rise to their own creations above.

When the Titans came, they killed Y'Shaarj first (the greatest of the Old Gods at the time) from high orbit, an act that wounded Azeroth severely and created the Well of Eternity as pool of the World-Soul's own essences (Spirit and Arcane energies). As killing the Old Gods directly proved too costly to the nascent World-Soul, they opted instead to create armies of Titanforged to destroy the Old God's servants, contain the mass of their corrupted forms, and then imprisoned them in Titan installations across Azeroth - sealing their corruptions away within the planet itself, safeguarded from further spread by the prisons themselves.

Once the Old Gods were dispatched and the raging Elementals that couldn't be pacified imprisoned in the Elemental Planes, the Pantheon set about the work of Ordering Azeroth and seeding it with uncorrupted life. Eonar and Freya were responsible for the bulk of this, and Freya herself is credited as the creator of the Wild Gods. Using the energies of the Well of Eternity directly, Freya created vast enclaves and reserves of uncorrupted nature, which gave rise to animal life on Azeroth. The Wild Gods were the largest and most powerful of these beings, infused by the energies of the Well and gifted with sentience and power. So the phrase "emerged from the Well" isn't meant to be literal here - the Well helped give rise to them, but they were created by Freya and first appeared form the wilds that she and Eonar seeded across the world.

As life proliferates from these enclaves, the ambient energies of the Well change it further, giving rise to beings like Trolls, Yaungol, Furbolgs, Murlocs, and some of the other older races of Azeroth. In addition it seems the Wild Gods themselves had some influence on life, either creating or finding beings to serve them (which is where many of the Greater Loa arise from). Later on Yogg-Saron's Curse of Flesh causes the creation of organic life through converting the Titanforged - creating Vrykul, Dwarves, Troggs, Gnomes, and eventually Humans. Organic life once more proliferates across Azeroth, evolving and changing forms due to a variety of causes.

[Beloren]

Now some of these creatures in the wilds over the world develop into trolls. Now one group of trolls moves to the Well's location, and a combination of its energy plus their study which may or may not involve the hand of Elune, causes these trolls to be elevated to a very high intelligence form that matches their graceful spirits. These become the night elves and from them all the elf off shoots altered by magic or the lack of it occur.. High elves come from the lack of it during the exile (whether something done by the druids or the longer jour ey or both) Satyr from Sargeras magical manipulation, Naga from old gods magical manipulation, Nightborne from constant ingesting of Nightwell energies as food.
It looks that the original elf , the night elf is the final form, all the other off shoots are not natural or divine accelerations but by ma population or abuse. Interesting as the way night elves were introduced in WC3 ma UAL made them come off as the "super elf", the original, purest and most complete version...yet it is interesting how si ce TBC they have come across as the least and weakest of the elven groups.

For the elves this is how I view it.

• Thalassian elves with and using a well = more magical than night elves not using one
• Night elves naturally = more magical than Thalassian elves without the use of a magical source

Base night elf is more enhanced (more magical, more intelligent, longer lived, bigger, stronger) than the base high elf.
[because in becoming high elves, those night elves lost]

• Thalassian elves are more magical because they have and use a magical well sources while most night elves do not - this is naturally speaking.
• Thalassian elves have a more magical society, because that's how they have lived, whereas Darnassians have not.

• Shen'dralar however would be more magical than Thalassians as they use magic unlike other Darnassians. (Darnassian highborne would be like Shen'dralar)
• Nightborne are more magical than both Shen'dralar & Thalassians (also Darnassians ofc) but they have other weaknesses

It is unknown how much the Arcan'dor fixes, but it might mean Nightborne are now at Shen'dralar levels and have gained physical strength or are in the process of returning to the original more balanced night elf state (as you often suggest) - whether that would lead to noticeable physical changes apart from putting on some weight remains to be seen.

• Naga - are aberrations, their changes means they are probably stronger in some ways, but lose something else in return
• Satyr - are also aberrations of the demonic variety, again, they gain strengths in magic, physical capability and power but also lose things (their humanity, or the elven version of it)

Trolls are not Elves. Different species. All we know is that elves have greater intelligence (esp with magic), lifespan, compassion/benevolence and nimble dexterity - but this they have more so than any other race. Trolls have greater strength, aggression, grounding than elves, and are likely more combat cunning too (a form of intelligence attributed to a predator in a hunt or a fighter.

[ravenmoon]

For the elves this is how I view it.

• Thalassian elves with and using a well = more magical than night elves not using one
• Night elves naturally = more magical than Thalassian elves without the use of a magical source

Base night elf is more enhanced (more magical, more intelligent, longer lived, bigger, stronger) than the base high elf.
[because in becoming high elves, those night elves lost]

• Thalassian elves are more magical because they have and use a magical well sources while most night elves do not - this is naturally speaking.
• Thalassian elves have a more magical society, because that's how they have lived, whereas Darnassians have not.

• Shen'dralar however would be more magical than Thalassians as they use magic unlike other Darnassians. (Darnassian highborne would be like Shen'dralar)
• Nightborne are more magical than both Shen'dralar & Thalassians (also Darnassians ofc) but they have other weaknesses

It is unknown how much the Arcan'dor fixes, but it might mean Nightborne are now at Shen'dralar levels and have gained physical strength or are in the process of returning to the original more balanced night elf state (as you often suggest) - whether that would lead to noticeable physical changes apart from putting on some weight remains to be seen.

• Naga - are aberrations, their changes means they are probably stronger in some ways, but lose something else in return
• Satyr - are also aberrations of the demonic variety, again, they gain strengths in magic, physical capability and power but also lose things (their humanity, or the elven version of it)

Trolls are not Elves. Different species. All we know is that elves have greater intelligence (esp with magic), lifespan, compassion/benevolence and nimble dexterity - but this they have more so than any other race. Trolls have greater strength, aggression, grounding than elves, and are likely more combat cunning too (a form of intelligence attributed to a predator in a hunt or a fighter.

I still think that if blizzard ever delved into the nightborne again and developed them (without faction totally dicatating everything) we will see the Arcan'dor restore the nightborne to night elves over time. We should also see druids of the valewalkers brand being a part of their society, and their priesthood distinctly being Elunite. I also feel we would see nightborne friendships wtih other kaldorei, highborne ones, druid ones and priestly ones where those circles interact, and this would not preclude their friendship or fondness with and for blood elves.

So far the story as the Darnassian faction being initially cold towards them, hence the horde friendship, it says nothing about the other neutral night elves, nor does it look at order like the Eluen based priestly one, or the multi-racial druidic one. But that's my hunch if I follow the story of 7.0 and 7.1 which have far more information about the nightborne than everything after.

Still the events after will change things. i do acknowledge that it is possible the nightborne completely move away from their kaldorei connections and change their culture entirely to one that is idnetical to the blood elves. Blood elf fans like you probably really want this, I notice some of thier fans don't want anything to connect or link the nightborne with the night elves.. which has always struck me as really dumb, because you will have to phsyically change them and their city so much, they would become something totally different than what they were meant to be. Maybe it's not so dumb as it won't be the first time blizzard totally u-turned on a race or led to be something else than origianlly intended. This is also within their rights.

[Lochton]

They seem to be titan structures. As the 3 great pyramids hold seals on them. So I'm not sure they actually built it.. is there an official record stating so?

It would seem Atal'dazar they built, but are you sure of the others?

They built around the three seals, and most likely on top too.

[Beloren]

According to "Chronicle Vol. 1", prior to the Ordering (when the Pantheon came to Azeroth) the surface of Azeroth was essentially barren and had little to no organic life - the Elementals, enslaved by the Old Gods, just warred across its surface to entertain their Old God masters while the Old Gods themselves went about the business of corrupting Azeroth's World-Soul while also fighting amongst themselves to see which one of them would be dominant in the end. The presence of the Old Gods did give rise to some forms of organic life themselves: the K'thir, the N'ragi, the Aqir, and the C'Thraxxi - all of them abominations made of the Old Gods' flesh and ichor. Whatever original life Azeroth might've had at this point, such as life arising from the shards of Light in the primeval ages of its creation, were likely destroyed or corrupted by the Old Gods to give rise to their own creations above.

When the Titans came, they killed Y'Shaarj first (the greatest of the Old Gods at the time) from high orbit, an act that wounded Azeroth severely and created the Well of Eternity as pool of the World-Soul's own essences (Spirit and Arcane energies). As killing the Old Gods directly proved too costly to the nascent World-Soul, they opted instead to create armies of Titanforged to destroy the Old God's servants, contain the mass of their corrupted forms, and then imprisoned them in Titan installations across Azeroth - sealing their corruptions away within the planet itself, safeguarded from further spread by the prisons themselves.

Once the Old Gods were dispatched and the raging Elementals that couldn't be pacified imprisoned in the Elemental Planes, the Pantheon set about the work of Ordering Azeroth and seeding it with uncorrupted life. Eonar and Freya were responsible for the bulk of this, and Freya herself is credited as the creator of the Wild Gods. Using the energies of the Well of Eternity directly, Freya created vast enclaves and reserves of uncorrupted nature, which gave rise to animal life on Azeroth. The Wild Gods were the largest and most powerful of these beings, infused by the energies of the Well and gifted with sentience and power. So the phrase "emerged from the Well" isn't meant to be literal here - the Well helped give rise to them, but they were created by Freya and first appeared form the wilds that she and Eonar seeded across the world.

As life proliferates from these enclaves, the ambient energies of the Well change it further, giving rise to beings like Trolls, Yaungol, Furbolgs, Murlocs, and some of the other older races of Azeroth. In addition it seems the Wild Gods themselves had some influence on life, either creating or finding beings to serve them (which is where many of the Greater Loa arise from). Later on Yogg-Saron's Curse of Flesh causes the creation of organic life through converting the Titanforged - creating Vrykul, Dwarves, Troggs, Gnomes, and eventually Humans. Organic life once more proliferates across Azeroth, evolving and changing forms due to a variety of causes.

There is a detail here that stands out. It must mean that the new life that develops is uncorrupted. Which means not all flesh is corrupted. Trolls and elves (unless they come into contact with direct corruption) aren't. So groups like the Amathet are very wrong and have over stated things. Teh curse of flesh can only apply to original titan stone constructs like stone Vrykul, stone Tol'vir, stone Earthern, mechancical gnomes etc that became flesh. Beings that were never stone to start with like Trolls, elves, Tauren, Orcs, Draenei are obviously not "cursed".

I seem to recall WotLK had the view that everyone fleshed was old gods cursed, and that never quite made sense. Thanks for the clarification.

[Aucald]

There is a detail here that stands out. It must mean that the new life that develops is uncorrupted. Which means not all flesh is corrupted. Trolls and elves (unless they come into contact with direct corruption) aren't. So groups like the Amathet are very wrong and have over stated things. Teh curse of flesh can only apply to original titan stone constructs like stone Vrykul, stone Tol'vir, stone Earthern, mechancical gnomes etc that became flesh. Beings that were never stone to start with like Trolls, elves, Tauren, Orcs, Draenei are obviously not "cursed".

I seem to recall WotLK had the view that everyone fleshed was old gods cursed, and that never quite made sense. Thanks for the clarification.

The life created by Eonar and Freya is uncorrupted, yes; basically just an accelerated form of the natural development of life in the Warcraft universe - albeit one directed and stewarded by the Titans. Flesh itself is not a corruption, and beings like Gearmaster Mechazod, the Amathet, and King Mechagon are all mistaken in their assertions that this is the case (although for most of them this is more a product of the Curse of Flesh having changed them than any kind of true corruption).

The Curse of Flesh was designed to essentially give the Titanforged free will so it could be corrupted by the Old Gods - what is meant by the original turn of phrase "facilitating assimilation," the Curse of Flesh made the Titanforged easier to corrupt and subsume, but it also freed them from being automatons. Some of the converted Titanforged went bad like the Mogu, others became in the Keepers' view "worthy of genesis" like the Dwarves, Gnomes, and Humans.

[Maljinwo]

Trolls established themselves in the mountain range of Zandalar due to their proximity to loa and started building shrines around them.
Dazar, the first king of the trolls, claims to have founded the city.

With this knowledg,e it wouldn't susprise me that the shrines they first built were extended and eventually were annexed into the City when Dazar founded it, to honor the loa.
The seal of Dazar'Alor is titan made and may have become the basis of troll architecture as the troll built the city around it just as tol'vir architecture resembles the titan facilities in Uldum.
There are 2 similar pyramid in Vol'dun and Nazmir (Atal'Aman and Atal'Nazman)

[Beloren]

Still the events after will change things. i do acknowledge that it is possible the nightborne completely move away from their kaldorei connections and change their culture entirely to one that is idnetical to the blood elves. Blood elf fans like you probably really want this, I notice some of thier fans don't want anything to connect or link the nightborne with the night elves.. which has always struck me as really dumb, because you will have to phsyically change them and their city so much, they would become something totally different than what they were meant to be. Maybe it's not so dumb as it won't be the first time blizzard totally u-turned on a race or led to be something else than origianlly intended. This is also within their rights.

Ah, please do not count me in this, I really don't care that much about them. I'll be satisfied if blizzard makes it interesting and diverse. It's not good to care so much about these things. Some would find it interesting if they take nightborne more along that path you want, but it's not the only interesting thing they can do with them. I don't think blizzard cares for them as much as you do. I don't think any fans do as much as you do. Most will be okay with nightborne tagging along with blood elves and no more done with them.

Blood elves are far more popular and desirable, why should blizzard waste time with the nightborne? If they want to develop kaldorei arcane stuff further, they should do it with the highborne on the night elf side and let the nightborne be nightborne as horde members, because that's the path they chose. They obviously could have gone the night elf route, but they voted them to go horde, and since that point everything has changed. You're wasting time harping on about 7.0/nighthold - that's now history, and they've disconnected with that because they are now horde. Deal with it.

[ravenmoon]

They built around the three seals, and most likely on top too.

This is what I am suspecting now. Like Aucald said, so it is largely their stuff

[TuhoCthun]

Beings that were never stone to start with like Trolls, elves, Tauren, Orcs, Draenei are obviously not "cursed".

Well i believe Orcs come from Grond, who was a stone giant created by Aggramar. From Grond, came the colossi, the magnaron, grons, ogrons, ogres and orcs by extension.

[ravenmoon]

Trolls established themselves in the mountain range of Zandalar due to their proximity to loa and started building shrines around them.
Dazar, the first king of the trolls, claims to have founded the city.

With this knowledg,e it wouldn't susprise me that the shrines they first built were extended and eventually were annexed into the City when Dazar founded it, to honor the loa.
The seal of Dazar'Alor is titan made and may have become the basis of troll architecture as the troll built the city around it just as tol'vir architecture resembles the titan facilities in Uldum.
There are 2 similar pyramid in Vol'dun and Nazmir (Atal'Aman and Atal'Nazman)

Yes, I noticed the ones in Vol'dun and Nazmir... you see I wish they had done this with the night elves.. we got Total ruins until Suramar was designed. The Zandalar approach is much better, you give one pristine version, then you can have different versions of ruined ones that match the local.

I forgot that it was the loa that drew the trolls to the Zanaladr mountain range. I wonder if the loa had a hand in their development, or it's just that the trolls met them quite early on as one fo the first reproducing sentient life forms. Still it is interesting that a priesthood develops, and not druidsm, given teh loa's strong connection with the emerald dream.

but then as I keep pointing out, what is druidsm is a higher level of nature studies that Malfurion develops into an art/class, just like the night elves developed arcane manipulation into an advanced art that creates the mage class, nature and arcane were being utilised long before these classes specialise so deeply in them. So it's likely the torlls have had elemnts of druidm, magecraft and others with them for much longer, it is the elves that developed the specific avenues of arcane and nature studies into what would becalled Magecraft and Druidsm.

in this way you can think of the elves as specialists in arcane anad nature magic (now fel oto because of demon hunters), doing things with them far beyond the reach of any other group.

- - - Updated - - -

Ah, please do not count me in this, I really don't care that much about them. I'll be satisfied if blizzard makes it interesting and diverse. It's not good to care so much about these things. Some would find it interesting if they take nightborne more along that path you want, but it's not the only interesting thing they can do with them. I don't think blizzard cares for them as much as you do. I don't think any fans do as much as you do. Most will be okay with nightborne tagging along with blood elves and no more done with them.

Blood elves are far more popular and desirable, why should blizzard waste time with the nightborne? If they want to develop kaldorei arcane stuff further, they should do it with the highborne on the night elf side and let the nightborne be nightborne as horde members, because that's the path they chose. They obviously could have gone the night elf route, but they voted them to go horde, and since that point everything has changed. You're wasting time harping on about 7.0/nighthold - that's now history, and they've disconnected with that because they are now horde. Deal with it.

Well excuse me for wanting Nightborne to be in the original concept they were created for and from. Why should joining the horde change that? It's un-necesary to change the nightborne into some blood elf clones, they have enough about them that fit their state as an allied race from the night elves and should continue to be that even on the horde - giving the horde access to the night elf world, just like the alliance get access to the Thalassian world via the void elves.

It would be silly to cut the void elves totally off from their Thalassian heritage even as they find their own ground as they grow in their new state. Same wtih the nightborne too, it would be silly to cut them off. Both give an opportunity for large and popular races like the elves who really aren't actually horde or alliance in identity to be shared by both.

Look at it this way, with the horde having nightborne, all those night elf novels could now appeal to the entire player base, seeing that the nightborne are part of and from that world, that racial group is not just limited to forests and sentinels, it's got highborne, arcane magic, priests, Elune, demon hunters, nightborne too, and when blizzard go to it, now players from both factions can be interested.

The same for the Thalassians. So I don't really see anythign wrong with it.

[Lochton]

This is what I am suspecting now. Like Aucald said, so it is largely their stuff

That, and the titans don't really seem to build for convenience.

[Beloren]

The life created by Eonar and Freya is uncorrupted, yes; basically just an accelerated form of the natural development of life in the Warcraft universe - albeit one directed and stewarded by the Titans. Flesh itself is not a corruption, and beings like Gearmaster Mechazod, the Amathet, and King Mechagon are all mistaken in their assertions that this is the case (although for most of them this is more a product of the Curse of Flesh having changed them than any kind of true corruption).

The Curse of Flesh was designed to essentially give the Titanforged free will so it could be corrupted by the Old Gods - what is meant by the original turn of phrase "facilitating assimilation," the Curse of Flesh made the Titanforged easier to corrupt and subsume, but it also freed them from being automatons. Some of the converted Titanforged went bad like the Mogu, others became in the Keepers' view "worthy of genesis" like the Dwarves, Gnomes, and Humans.

Fascinating, when you put it that way, it does fit. You can't control an automaton, but if it has free will, you can convince it to serve you. I like it.

- - - Updated - - -

Well i believe Orcs come from Grond, who was a stone giant created by Aggramar. From Grond, came the colossi, the magnaron, grons, ogrons, ogres and orcs by extension.

Oh, Grond was stone.. so with no curse of flesh, how do they become flesh? Botanni?

- - - Updated - - -

Well excuse me for wanting Nightborne to be in the original concept they were created for and from. Why should joining the horde change that? It's un-necesary to change the nightborne into some blood elf clones, they have enough about them that fit their state as an allied race from the night elves and should continue to be that even on the horde - giving the horde access to the night elf world, just like the alliance get access to the Thalassian world via the void elves.

It would be silly to cut the void elves totally off from their Thalassian heritage even as they find their own ground as they grow in their new state. Same wtih the nightborne too, it would be silly to cut them off. Both give an opportunity for large and popular races like the elves who really aren't actually horde or alliance in identity to be shared by both.

Look at it this way, with the horde having nightborne, all those night elf novels could now appeal to the entire player base, seeing that the nightborne are part of and from that world, that racial group is not just limited to forests and sentinels, it's got highborne, arcane magic, priests, Elune, demon hunters, nightborne too, and when blizzard go to it, now players from both factions can be interested.

The same for the Thalassians. So I don't really see anythign wrong with it.

Your passion is annoying, even if you are right, you make others not want you to be right. No offence.

Maybe it will go as you say, I never really thought of it that way, but I guess when you do, it makes sense for nightborne to hang on to their original identity and continue exploring them as pre-sundering kaldorei in a new world, restarting their arcane kaldorei civilization.

[Aucald]

Oh, Grond was stone.. so with no curse of flesh, how do they become flesh? Botanni?

The beings created from Grond were effected by spores from the dying Sporemounds (Zang, Botaan, and Naanu), the two mixed and gave rise to organic beings like the Gronn, Ogron, Ogres, and eventually Orcs. These spores pretty much acted like the Curse of Flesh did, although the effects took longer and there were more interstitial stages in between (which is why the Gronn and some Ogron have rocky, elemental-like carapaces).

[ravenmoon]

The life created by Eonar and Freya is uncorrupted, yes; basically just an accelerated form of the natural development of life in the Warcraft universe - albeit one directed and stewarded by the Titans. Flesh itself is not a corruption, and beings like Gearmaster Mechazod, the Amathet, and King Mechagon are all mistaken in their assertions that this is the case (although for most of them this is more a product of the Curse of Flesh having changed them than any kind of true corruption).

The Curse of Flesh was designed to essentially give the Titanforged free will so it could be corrupted by the Old Gods - what is meant by the original turn of phrase "facilitating assimilation," the Curse of Flesh made the Titanforged easier to corrupt and subsume, but it also freed them from being automatons. Some of the converted Titanforged went bad like the Mogu, others became in the Keepers' view "worthy of genesis" like the Dwarves, Gnomes, and Humans.

i'm not sure it's a good logic by blizzard. Or at least I'm not convinced by it. It's almost like saying free will is a curse. And in this state it backfires on the old gods, because we're the ones now stopping them and ending them.

[Beloren]

i'm not sure it's a good logic by blizzard. Or at least I'm not convinced by it. It's almost like saying free will is a curse. And in this state it backfires on the old gods, because we're the ones now stopping them and ending them.

The old gods were defeated, they lost to the titans, a small chance of succes is better than none. The way they would see it, is sure, these guys might not choose to join us, but we have a chance of weakning the tiatns stranglehold and spreading corruption to the point we can be released and fulfil our mission.

And you have to say, it nearly worked. Even if not all of us became corrupt, enough followed the old gods -- think of Deathwing who got maddened, Azshara who chose to side with them, and the many cultists who paved teh way for their voices to get louder and the doors to be open to fulfil their mission and spread their corruption.

[Aucald]

i'm not sure it's a good logic by blizzard. Or at least I'm not convinced by it. It's almost like saying free will is a curse. And in this state it backfires on the old gods, because we're the ones now stopping them and ending them.

The Titans and their creations are beings of pure Order - to them, free will is an aberration that don't really understand. Algalon himself refers to our free will as an "imperfection," but further muses that it might be responsible for our victories over the Old Gods where the "pure" Titanforged had failed. In a real sense it *does* backfire on the Old Gods - their greed for corruption more beings gave rise to the very beings that would go on to stop them, ultimately. Kind of a classical take on evil creating the means of its own destruction, really. According to Algalon, the Titans wiped out entire planetary systems in their goal to Order the universe and find others like themselves, so they obviously don't care much for individual will to survive. Their goals are more important than individual lives, and their morality is decidedly of the "blue and orange" variety.

[Maljinwo]

Ravemoon's capacity to turn any thread into elfposting is astounding