Gonna miss titanforging.

[Raelbo]

That doesn't make it a fun nor interesting system, esp when you have 0 TF and your stupidly lucky guildie has nearly every slot TF. Coupled with forced personal loot made this so freaking RNG and disgustingly annoying to deal with.

This right here is precisely why I have zero respect for the anti-TF arguments btw.

Firstly you're creating a basically impossible hypothetical hyperbole of reality as the thing you're actually upset about, and then you're getting upset about it for a completely puerile reason.

Over the sort of timescales and number of bosskills involved in clearing a tier, the "luck" element tends to pretty much cancel out due to the nature of statistics. Sure, RNG will always ensure that some players will have slightly better gear than others, as has always been the case in the game.

Secondly, personal gear is of secondary importance to the group's gear. The fact that a guildie got a great TF is good for your progress too. If you're so immature that your jealousy prevents you from being happy for your teammates getting nice gear upgrades, that's on you, not the system.

Lastly, I find it funny that you're taking umbrage with the fact that TF results in some guildies having better gear than you while simultaneously complaining about PL given that the main argument for ML was that you wanted to be able to give away your good loot for the good of the guild.....

[XorMalice]

"t's gonna be so lame getting the same item level every run and you gear out your character in a few nights of m+. "

First, will that be lame? Being able to achieve BiS on a raiding main is a thing most games have done, and a thing WoW has done for most of its life. I'd argue that the addition of warforging and its variants have been a pretty strong deviation from that, and transparently to increase the time before you get BiS from a long tail to an effectively endless tail.

It's also odd to assume that BiS will be delivered all that much faster than live- before the various "forgings", you couldn't actually gear out your character in a few nights of any top content.

Out of the people I knew who I either raided with, or know IRL who raided at all, all really didn't like the warforge mechanic. I don't know how common players like you are, versus players like them- I don't have like, a scientific sample. I will say that I don't know anyone who raids in WoW because of its gear model, but a couple who claim to have left because of the gear model. I suspect that, at least in the specific implementation we've seen, the gear model is a net negative and broadly considered disproven.

WoW's competition seems to know this; the only game with variable loot like WoW is SWTOR, and even there, the gear is:
1)- Not exclusively from top tier content; spend some tech shards at a vendor and get a randomly rolled fraction of a gear piece.
2)- Not actually variable in item level; a given enhancement may have 20 variations, but each one is a different split on its stats (with a tankier piece having higher endurance, whereas a favorable dps piece will favor either total offensive stats, or a specific tertiary stat that gives good rate of return).
3)- Much faster to gear up to BiS for a given spec on a given character than in WoW even considering all of this.
4)- Able to be mailed to your alts, or placed in a shared storage that all your alts can use, meaning if your empire side marauder has some great gear, so does your republic side sentinel.

Other WoW-likes, such as FFXIV (likely a better example, given that it's doing extremely well) don't hold the bis over your head. The start of each tier features raiders punching into a challenging but small set of bosses, and achieving gear becomes easier with each minipatch, until the next raid content drops. The raid content is on a predictable schedule, the ways to achieve said gear are the same each minipatch, and the gearing is generally considered boring; but the patches keeps coming, the raids keep dropping, and hey, you can gear plenty of alternate classes on your main character if you want; FFXIV has a totally different system than WoW and its other copycats as regards jobs on one character.

Anyway, I'll be shocked if WoW lets you BiSout in days, without giving you some massive other subsystem to provide power or goals.

[Asrialol]

you serious bro?
titanforging lost them a lot of subs

Proof?

Personally I didn't mind titanforging that much. Without it there would be absolutely no reason for me to do m+, get m+ weekly cache, pug heroic raids since guild doesn't do that anymore (EP before 8.3), pug the first 5 bosses on mythic on alts, etc..

Just like legendaries in Legion. Why would I even do anything (WQ emissaries???) Without a chance for that legendary drop?

[markos82]

Yeah, and they replaced it with an even worse system.

Don't worry OP. TF will be back in 9.0 because blizzard has no idea what to replace it with instead of tuning it properly.

Yeah and all started with TF. Why is that hard to understand, wow has becoming more and more luck dependent. One item now can mean a difference in 30% or even more dps. In a game oriented to competition that system is shit. And again, all started with TF system

[kaminaris]

The actual minorities are the people who like/hated TF. The majority didn't care.

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Except every warrior does that with King's Rest if they don't get the sword on the first run through.

Yeah there are some exceptions like warriors and weapons and also trinkets. I was using 400 ilvl crafted trinket for good amount of time because there was nothing better.
But it has been always like this for classes that have super high weapon damage scaling and trinkets.

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It was not that it was a bad system, but that the amounts should never outperform the next level of content.

As many said in the beginning, it could have been limited to five item levels. This would not disregard other systems even if they are more powerful for the user. It would not be a sole determination, and that's good IMO as it gives more options that way.

I don't have a problem with more options, I understand that I'll need to keep all my corruption and non-corruption gear to balance things, on top of AOE and tank. As a MT from back in the day with multiple resistance gear and far less space, this is normal for me personally, asI have always done it anyway.

+5 ilvl cap would might as well not exist at all. +15 would be minimum for a cap because of how mathematics works.

[Mendzia]

I expected many weird, pointelss and sometimes stupid threads on this forum... but... honestly i did not expect thread about missing titanforging.
It is probably the most hated thing in this game in last few years.

[Mightytasty]

This is problem that comes from your personality, probably because you don't understand how system worked. Technically with titanforging everything is either hit or miss.
hit = it is upgrade for you
miss = it is not upgrade

simple as that. It is literally the same as if they changed static stats on gear to random ones and removed the word "ilvl", with a guarantee that average stat budget of items are higher from harder content.

I play Diablo 3, I know how the system of random stat distribution works. The irony is even in Diablo 3 they have a BiS list in the form of Primal Ancients. Getting a full set of BiS Titanforge + socketed gear in WoW is statistically impossible within the scope of a patch. I‘m all for extending gear progression but I don’t know how anyone could defend the current system.

[kaminaris]

"t's gonna be so lame getting the same item level every run and you gear out your character in a few nights of m+. "

First, will that be lame? Being able to achieve BiS on a raiding main is a thing most games have done, and a thing WoW has done for most of its life. I'd argue that the addition of warforging and its variants have been a pretty strong deviation from that, and transparently to increase the time before you get BiS from a long tail to an effectively endless tail.

It's also odd to assume that BiS will be delivered all that much faster than live- before the various "forgings", you couldn't actually gear out your character in a few nights of any top content.

That thing right here is the problem with people mindset. Why? Because they put gear as a goal, and it is not healthy for the game to compete over the items, that eventually will become garbage. Even in vanilla it was like this.

Your goal should not be gear but to have fun with friends. To make memories.
Or to clear hardest content.
Or to push highest keys.

That is the real goal.

You won't be sitting couple of years later remembering that you got Assurance of Consequence some time in siege of orgrimmar.
But you will remember the moment you barely made that +22 atal with couple of friends.

TL;DR: Gear is not memorable, gear doesn't make fond memories.

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I play Diablo 3, I know how the system of random stat distribution works. The irony is even in Diablo 3 they have a BiS list in the form of Primal Ancients. Getting a full set of BiS Titanforge + socketed gear in WoW is statistically impossible within the scope of a patch. I‘m all for extending gear progression but I don’t know how anyone could defend the current system.

Lol no, that is just in your head. The moment you stop caring about gear AT ALL is the moment you realize how pointless your statement is.

No amount of gear and rewards is going to keep me subbed if content sucks.
Titanforging or not, I am not going to farm gear just to have it, that is not the goal.

[Mightytasty]

That thing right here is the problem with people mindset. Why? Because they put gear as a goal, and it is not healthy for the game to compete over the items, that eventually will become garbage. Even in vanilla it was like this.

Your goal should not be gear but to have fun with friends. To make memories.
Or to clear hardest content.
Or to push highest keys.

That is the real goal.

You won't be sitting couple of years later remembering that you got Assurance of Consequence some time in siege of orgrimmar.
But you will remember the moment you barely made that +22 atal with couple of friends.

TL;DR: Gear is not memorable, gear doesn't make fond memories.

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Lol no, that is just in your head. The moment you stop caring about gear AT ALL is the moment you realize how pointless your statement is.

No amount of gear and rewards is going to keep me subbed if content sucks.
Titanforging or not, I am not going to farm gear just to have it, that is not the goal.

WoW is an RPG. Gear matters. They got rid of gear progression completely in Legion PvP and it was an absolute disaster. Don’t tell others how they should play the game.

[kaminaris]

WoW is an RPG. Gear matters. They got rid of gear progression completely in Legion PvP and it was an absolute disaster. Don’t tell others how they should play the game.

Gear would only matter if there was finite end to WoW, but there isn't.
Vanilla -> TBC -> all gear is now garbage
TBC -> TBC 2nd raid patch -> most of the gear is garbage
TBC 2nd patch -> TBC 3rd raid patch -> most of the gear is garbage
and so on.

And it has been since then.

You immediately know your gear is going to be a grabage next patch or expansion. It is completely illogical to cling to it like it was a goal.

Imagine your mounts that you have now, would be speed 310% but all new mounts were like 400% (similar to power gap).

[Mightytasty]

Gear would only matter if there was finite end to WoW, but there isn't.
Vanilla -> TBC -> all gear is now garbage
TBC -> TBC 2nd raid patch -> most of the gear is garbage
TBC 2nd patch -> TBC 3rd raid patch -> most of the gear is garbage
and so on.

And it has been since then.

You immediately know your gear is going to be a grabage next patch or expansion. It is completely illogical to cling to it like it was a goal.

Imagine your mounts that you have now, would be speed 310% but all new mounts were like 400% (similar to power gap).

Why can’t I set my goal as my BiS list, like many people used to do, and rinse & repeat every patch if I find it fun? Then once per patch I can try for high scores on logs or kick some ass in PvP. People don’t need an infinite gear treadmill to convince them to raid more - in fact people probably raid less because of it. I know I do.

[ToxicFlame]

Gear would only matter if there was finite end to WoW, but there isn't.
Vanilla -> TBC -> all gear is now garbage
TBC -> TBC 2nd raid patch -> most of the gear is garbage
TBC 2nd patch -> TBC 3rd raid patch -> most of the gear is garbage
and so on.

And it has been since then.

You immediately know your gear is going to be a grabage next patch or expansion. It is completely illogical to cling to it like it was a goal.

Imagine your mounts that you have now, would be speed 310% but all new mounts were like 400% (similar to power gap).

It's not though. Getting bis didn't take an entire tier, let alone pre-raid bis. Which means that after i got all of that i could go to the next toon, and only raid log on the first(or second, third, ... depending on my luck, after my main was fully geared). There was no need to farm endlessly and there was no feeling like you're missing out if you don't.

[kaminaris]

Why can’t I set my goal as my BiS list, like many people used to do, and rinse & repeat every patch if I find it fun? Then once per patch I can try for high scores on logs or kick some ass in PvP. People don’t need an infinite gear treadmill to convince them to raid more - in fact people probably raid less because of it. I know I do.

Oh the irony. You know you can do that even in less time like you used to before?

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It's not though. Getting bis didn't take an entire tier, let alone pre-raid bis. Which means that after i got all of that i could go to the next toon, and only raid log on the first(or second, third, ... depending on my luck, after my main was fully geared). There was no need to farm endlessly and there was no feeling like you're missing out if you don't.

There is no need to farm endlessly now, its even easier to get really good gear now BECAUSE of titanforging without farming shit.

[ToxicFlame]

Oh the irony. You know you can do that even in less time like you used to before?

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There is no need to farm endlessly now, its even easier to get really good gear now BECAUSE of titanforging without farming shit.

show me 1 armory that has a maximum ilvl titanforge in every slot.

[kaminaris]

show me 1 armory that has a maximum ilvl titanforge in every slot.

Nobody needs that shit, that your problem, you dont need bis.

[ToxicFlame]

Nobody needs that shit, that your problem, you dont need bis.

who are you to tell me what i need?

[kaminaris]

who are you to tell me what i need?

Someone who understands math.

[Mightytasty]

Oh the irony. You know you can do that even in less time like you used to before?

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There is no need to farm endlessly now, its even easier to get really good gear now BECAUSE of titanforging without farming shit.

Wait, what? BiS is impossible now. How tf does it take less time?

[kaminaris]

Wait, what? BiS is impossible now. How tf does it take less time?

You are extremely unlikely to get bis but it is much much easier to reach 90% of max power.

[BananaHandsB]

I thought thunderforging in MoP was great. It was only a max of 6 item levels and it didnt go above the next tier.

Totally agree with this. It started as a great system, but they pushed it way too far.