The Grinding - BFA vs WOTLK

[Kralljin]

I just checked back and I never compared AP to badges.

Then i'd love to know you even brought up a system that had didn't even exist in Wotlk (and is quite frankly an improvement over the Wotlk system) into a thread that discusses freaking Wotlk.

Titan residuum is only random if you buy the random token you smart person.
Wish you could buy what you want? YOU are fckin lucky you can do that.

Too bad the specific token require like 10 weeks in order to buy a single one and there are up to three slots to cover.

Go ahead. "you will just get rewards slower" there, your own dumbass point turned against you.

Yeah, compare your disadvantage in Wotlk if you skipped Daily hc and if you now skip M+, Visions, etc. and just focus on raids.
Get real, you'll be miles behind, some items (or abilities, in the case of essences) will also remain forever out of your reach.

What did you lose in Wotlk?
15% of your total badges.

It not only was, as I said, the lack of other options made it mandatory.

There were other options, as said multiple times, you got plenty in raids, which you were doing anyway.

Especially since guilds were banking items with master loot back then, getting a good drop was extremely rare if you weren't kneeling for it.

Yeah, that's just bs.
In Wotlk you already had 3-4 items per boss on 25man, 2 in 10 man.

If you didn't get any loot over the course of multiple runs, your guild had a corrupt leadership or you were a terrible player and thus at the bottom of the loot chain.

[leorana]

every single gameplay aspect of WoW was better in WoTLK. There are very few that wouldnt agree with this.

Personally the only thing that felt needlessly grindy in LK was the Argent Tournament

Agreed for most parts. I do feel that M+, mage tower, challange modes, and most raids up to legion were good as well though.

One thing though, regarding rep grind in WotLk, it was waay less gated and much easier to grind with tabards.
Also, if you havn't capped some rep, so what? In bfa you have to cap gated reps for essences, otherwise you're gimped in end game.

[Jastall]

Gearing up was also a LOT slower in Wrath- there's no WQ or M+ gear to help you. You can quickly get a baseline by spamming Heroics, but from here on out it's either raid or badges, and badges took eons to fully gear up and required you to log in every day for a usually faceroll dungeon. Unless you got carried through raids and funneled gear in Wrath, it often takes less time to get an alt ready today in practice.

Furthermore, unless you want to take that alt into Mythic, you really don't need rank 3 essences, perfect Azerite traits, great Corruption gear and level 75 neck. That's as ridiculous as claiming a Warrior needed Deathbringer's Will before setting foot in ICC. Your alts aren't supposed to be as powerful as your main unless you really dedicate yourself to them.

Not that I think BFA has been alt-friendly, it has not. Essences should have been account-wide (or at the very least, ease progress for Alts, fuck getting rank 3 Lucid Dreams on an alt for example), Corruption shouldn't have been that good, and generally there are few gates too many. But their effect is exaggerated, while the slow process of gearing in Wrath is ignored.

[Garymorilix]

Then i'd love to know you even brought up a system that had didn't even exist in Wotlk (and is quite frankly an improvement over the Wotlk system) into a thread that discusses freaking Wotlk.



Too bad the specific token require like 10 weeks in order to buy a single one and there are up to three slots to cover.



Yeah, compare your disadvantage in Wotlk if you skipped Daily hc and if you now skip M+, Visions, etc. and just focus on raids.
Get real, you'll be miles behind, some items (or abilities, in the case of essences) will also remain forever out of your reach.

What did you lose in Wotlk?
15% of your total badges.



There were other options, as said multiple times, you got plenty in raids, which you were doing anyway.



Yeah, that's just bs.
In Wotlk you already had 3-4 items per boss on 25man, 2 in 10 man.

If you didn't get any loot over the course of multiple runs, your guild had a corrupt leadership or you were a terrible player and thus at the bottom of the loot chain.

You cant read or are you just really bad at it? A random guy brought it up and I responded to him.
Fk is your problem.

Too bad I dont care about your whining. You cant argue that you can actually buy specific pieces so you cry like a baby "bwaah its soo much". Perfect counter.

You mean fk the game for giving you shit to do? Smart argument. Yea, I too miss the days of logging in only for a weekly raid. Ask the Classic folks, they know the "struggle". Oh wait, they dont play anymore for exactly that reason.

Read above.

Listen, I dont give a flying fk about what you enjoy or what you dont. Why do you even play BfA if you dont enjoy it?

I already stated in my very first post in this thread that I dont consider "enjoyment level" or subjective bs as a counter-argument to the fact that WotLK's daily reward style is objectively worse than whatever the fuck we have today.
Because it is, end of the story.
A weekly reward system is ojectively more flexible for everyone than a daily one. There is nothing you can argue here.
Blizzard literally brought up the wotlk badge system as the reason why they went to a weekly system.
You literally cant argue this.

I dont fkn care whether you liked wotlk or not. I enjoyed it at the time too. If I had to choose between now and then tho, BfA all the way. I like logging in and doing stuff other than the same HC runs solo for the 800th time (because you could solo those joke garbage dungeons easy).

[Lazuli]

Wotlk: the developers still developed towards fun not just grind. Now that they are slavecucks to investors its all about making the least amount of content ever with the most repetition possible for $.

As long as addicts will continue to play the unhealthy predatory WoW of today, this cancer will continue to spread.

[lollerlaban]

It's not even close these days though, 12 million in wrath to what we have now.

Compare back then to what the selection of games available is today, i'm not sure why i have to cut this out into pieces

[Kumorii]

Wotlk: the developers still developed towards fun not just grind. Now that they are slavecucks to investors its all about making the least amount of content ever with the most repetition possible for $.

All you had back then was grind though...?

[arr0gance]

It's not even close these days though, 12 million in wrath to what we have now.

Would you please e-mail J Allen Brack your CV? You must already be making millions of dollars a year with your superior intellect. All Blizzard has to do is make WotLK and WoW will have hundreds of millions of subscribers! It's just too easy for them, I think they need somebody like you on the board of directors to help shed some light on the situation.

By the way, have you considered running for President? You've got my vote!

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All you had back then was grind though...?

You misunderstand, see? My friends all think WoW was better in WotLK. Therefore even though I was grinding back then the game was fun because my friends said it was fun. Now, unless you want to tell me that my memories of WoW are somehow clouded by positive reinforcement or some weird nonsense like that, I will continue my firm belief that WotLK was better because I said so.

[Soikona]

What next tier after ICC, boy?

If that is your stupid ass logic then why even play the game?
Even between two content patches this wouldn't hold any water.

If this is all your counter argument then stand up, LOOK around you irl and throw everything out the Window that wont last for multiple decades right now. You'll be surprised.

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The catch up mechanic is the only reason it is not a mandatory daily grind.
Dont be stupid, nobody logs in solely to gain that 1-2k ap daily. People actually play the game.
Why do you assume that an arbitrary number is the sole reason people play when there is actual game play.
You can literally reach max HoA by not éven paying attention. Thats how most ppl do it anyway.

Meanwhile you had a static daily supply of badges with no catch up. You missed out you are fucked. Horrible design.
Actually these badges were the reason why blizz went from daily grind to weekly one.
You have to be severely handicapped to not notice this as an improvement.

ICC wasn’t the only part of WOTLK with badges “boy” (seriously, who says that?). You obviously can’t comprehend, because if you did you would see that the first paragraph was not my argument (as it was obviously mocking yours). Read the second paragraph as well, and give a counter argument, then reply to it and we will talk.

Correct - no need to grind either..



Correct - it being objective truth makes it so.



People who got to neck level 80 in the first week - CHOSE to grind AP... but it certainly wasn't worth it.

I don’t reply to those that break up my quotes as it is all related to each other. I should put that in my signature, as reply to this type of thing is worthless. Considering you cut out nearly all of it that has my replies.

Grind as a term is fairly subjective as well and it's only fair to explain what a boring grind is to me and what a good grind is.

I don't see m+, visions etc etc as grinds... since I do them for the increasing challenges. That's not a grind to me. Then it has things tied to it that is a grind, but that's not the reason I do them. In WotLK nothing of the sort existed, it was just doing the same boring dungeons to grind them.

Atm I'm doing the dailies. I don't do them because I will after 3 weeks get some cool new upgrade guaranteed and if I skip a day I fall behind. I do them because I enjoy pushing it in visions so I wanna do as much as possible.

BFA might have more content you can TURN into a grind if you so desire. In WoTLK and TBC all the content WAS grind, as I remember. You never really did the content for the content or to challenge yourself except the first time and then again for the first time you did it in heroic mode except for raids. I guess that's why I leveled so many characters back then because I enjoyed cutting down my /played to max level. Even leveled 2 mages because I didn't like the look of the first one lol.

Thing is, I don't see much in BFA as a grind because I don't indulge in the content FOR the grind, but to challenge myself.
Boring grind is repeating content for the sake of power long term. Good grind is doing content you like for challenges short term and you gain power as well in the long term.
I remember more boring grind in WotLK and TBC era and more of the good grind in BFA even though the quantity of grinds might be more.

AP gets a lot of flack, but as I mentioned. It's the same as badges to me and I soon get my last essence slot by doing absolutely 0 grinding. I do m+, raids, visions, dailies and weekly islands (which is 3-4 islands per week, it's a grind granted, but it's miniscule since it takes so little time).

Don't take this as I think BFA is the best thing ever, it's just that most grind complaints I hear I can't relate to. Most issues lies with balancing and a bit of excess RNG on items.

Fair enough, I would go on the other hand and say they are both grindy but with the fact of there being an end in WOTLK, it motivated me to do it. With there being no ceiling, I just can’t do it. To me it’s like running, I prefer to go for a jog outside around a lake close to me, it has a finish but I hate treadmills because it just keeps going. It’s how I see WOTLK vs BFA.

[sam86]

You can get any essence R3 in 2-3 weeks, if you dont even put that much effort in an alt, why do you need essences to begin with.

i don't even play an alt for 2-3 weeks straight in first place, why would i focus on alt for 3 weeks when i still have a main !? that's swapping mains not playing alt

[ParanoiD84]

Would you please e-mail J Allen Brack your CV? You must already be making millions of dollars a year with your superior intellect.

It's pretty sweet indeed swimming in tha money still comparing bfa or wod or cata with tbc and wrath yeah not really as good now is it, blizz have lost their touch and pasion long ago.

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Compare back then to what the selection of games available is today, i'm not sure why i have to cut this out into pieces

Perhaps the rest of expansions where just not as good starting with cata. Mop was alright though.

[schwarzkopf]

I don’t reply to those that break up my quotes

Odd - you replied to me, and if people aren't allowed to reply to your posts - why on earth do you participate in a public forum?

[Queen of Hamsters]

WOTLK was a worse expansion in terms of... well, everything aside from Arthas. And even he was at best portrayed as a Sunday Cartoon villain outside of awesome cinematics and a boss fight.

I'll take BfA any day. Anyone 'members people sat in Dalaran whining there's nothing to do? Pepperidge farm 'members... My memory isn't fogged over my roses like it seems to be in others, so I recall perfectly what WOTLK was and how it was viewed on these forums.

BfA set a new bar for mediocre, what was considered awesome back then would be considered a hack job today.

MoP though... that's where it's at!

[lollerlaban]

It's pretty sweet indeed swimming in tha money still comparing bfa or wod or cata with tbc and wrath yeah not really as good now is it, blizz have lost their touch and pasion long ago.

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Perhaps the rest of expansions where just not as good starting with cata. Mop was alright though.

But they were. WOTLK was just the pinnacle of retard tourism and popularity spike.

[Tazr]

Also. thinking back on Wrath:
I came into WotLK with three max level toons: druid(main), lock, and hunter. At the beginning of Ulduar I started running out of things to do, outside of raiding (and raiding wasn't nearly as accessible as it is today). So, out of boredom I started leveling alts. Leveling alts was fun, I enjoy playing the various classes, but, the point is, again, outside of raiding, during Wrath, I ran out of things to do. This will most definitely not be the case during BFA.

I can come up with plenty of criticisms about BFA, too much to do is not one of them.

It should be, it's crap content. I'd rather have quality, and...this crazy thing called FUN.

[Sansnom]

BFA now ? Everything is mandatory to do anything ... want to raid, do daily quests, rep grinding and everything. The difference between now and then is that they try to force you to play every part of the game instead of letting you play the part of the game you enjoy the most.

How is everything mandatory?

Hoping you all get the core of what am trying to explain here,

Not really. Except that WoTLK had caps but BfA does not, which is true. But what is stopping people to switch toon on their own? What about people that do not play alts and just a single toon?

To me, it really is the player own self control. Just stop when it no longer fun.

[callipygoustp]

It should be, it's crap content. I'd rather have quality, and...this crazy thing called FUN.

As I said:

I can come up with plenty of criticisms about BFA, too much to do is not one of them.

One of the criticisms I can come up with is that some of the content is indeed not fun: like flying around in circles for 30-60mins looking for a rare or a cache - not fun. However, my quote clearly speaks to quantity of content not quality.

[Kayze]

This is a little bit off topic, but I would just point out, the point of raiding should be because you like to raid. If you don't like to raid, and would choose to not-raid if you could get gear otherwise, I would think you would be happy with the alternate paths to get gear, then the raids can be for the people who enjoy raiding.

Seems like a win-win no?

Sure, in concept. The issue is human behavior/psychology and how raids are. Should you try to gather 10-25 people to raid content that has low drop rates and a lot of filler cinematic flare? Or do you do it once for the experience and do simple daily quests solo to get good enough gear for the next patch? Hell, we saw this happen with PVP gear in TBC.

In an ideal system, all paths are equal in general effort and probability but with a different flare/gameplay style/barrier to entry. If getting the currency from daily quests was longer or instead had a sort of drop chance RNG, then they'd be an actual alternative than the currently optimal path that they are. Otherwise, you'd only take the harder route of raiding because maybe you like competing on DPS meters or playing with your whole guild? Enjoy that weekly lock out then, I guess.

How is everything mandatory?

Pretty sure they meant that in order to be competitive (e.g. DPS meters or PVPing), you need to do everything to maximize azerite and gear acquisition. In vanilla and TBC, there wasn't as many methods to gain these sorts of progression and the methods there usually had lockouts.

For casual play, this doesn't matter. For hardcore/competitive, it does.

[Ragedaug]

Sure, in concept. The issue is human behavior/psychology and how raids are. Should you try to gather 10-25 people to raid content that has low drop rates and a lot of filler cinematic flare? Or do you do it once for the experience and do simple daily quests solo to get good enough gear for the next patch? Hell, we saw this happen with PVP gear in TBC.

In an ideal system, all paths are equal in general effort and probability but with a different flare/gameplay style/barrier to entry. If getting the currency from daily quests was longer or instead had a sort of drop chance RNG, then they'd be an actual alternative than the currently optimal path that they are. Otherwise, you'd only take the harder route of raiding because maybe you like competing on DPS meters or playing with your whole guild? Enjoy that weekly lock out then, I guess.

Once you have a raid on farm it's the easiest way to get gear. Add to that, the gear that you are easily getting from the raid is the best gear available. So I'm not sure where you are going with your point about effort.

When I raided, I never worried about doing dailies or professions for gear, because it was way easier to get gear from the raid. If I had 9 friends that were still raiding, I'd be doing it again. Not because it's the easiest way to get gear (though it is), but rather, because it's fun to hang out with my buddies for a few hours a couple times a week.

[docterfreeze]

I wish I PvE'd in the pre-legion expansions. If what people are saying here is true, I would've been a lot more open to the hardcore guilds without these inhumane grinds.