An alleged maintenance software costed 17 billion and failed. What the DOD did ?

[sarahtasher]

Why, give the contract for the follow up program to the same defence firm.

ALIS (the failure) is dead. Long live ODIN (by the same guys)

Will surely work this time. After all, it got a juvenile name and will be cloud based. Yeah

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ill-years-away

[shadowmouse]

Wasn't that the plot of the Remo Williams movie? If I recall, a corrupt defense contractor was developing a missile system that wasn't going to work, but it would be replaced with the next one and swept under the carpet.

[zenkai]

Wasn't that the plot of the Remo Williams movie? If I recall, a corrupt defense contractor was developing a missile system that wasn't going to work, but it would be replaced with the next one and swept under the carpet.

Pretty much, even blew up their own prototype lol

[Katchii]

Why, give the contract for the follow up program to the same defence firm.

ALIS (the failure) is dead. Long live ODIN (by the same guys)

Will surely work this time. After all, it got a juvenile name and will be cloud based. Yeah

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ill-years-away

They really don't have another choice.

It's not just the defense firm for the software development...they're the creator of the aircraft (Lockheed Martin) this is implemented on as well, so it's not like they would even be able to give the contract to another defense firm if they wanted to, unless Lockheed Martin allowed it since it's all proprietary information both on the software front but also all the hardware.

Even if they did allow it (which they wouldn't, they have no reason to), the learning curve on figuring out how all that shit works would take years of testing with lots and LOTS of failures along the way, and therefore lots and lots of money, to maybe only end up where they already are...with a product that does some things right and some things wrong that needs an update. If the people who know the aircraft and software inside and out messed it up, how do you think someone who would have to start almost from scratch would do? I promise it wouldn't be perfect either.

That said, it was a big idea with lots of potential that got some things wrong, albeit pretty big things. It's not like Lockheed Martin hasn't delivered in the past. They're more than capable of getting it right, and now that they know where things went wrong they'll be able to fix it.

Granted, it shouldn't have been wrong in the first place, but...can't do anything about that now except fix the issues they know are there.

[sarahtasher]

They really don't have another choice.

It's not just the defense firm for the software development...they're the creator of the aircraft (Lockheed Martin) this is implemented on as well, so it's not like they would even be able to give the contract to another defense firm if they wanted to, unless Lockheed Martin allowed it since it's all proprietary information both on the software front but also all the hardware.

Even if they did allow it (which they wouldn't, they have no reason to), the learning curve on figuring out how all that shit works would take years of testing with lots and LOTS of failures along the way, and therefore lots and lots of money, to maybe only end up where they already are...with a product that does some things right and some things wrong that needs an update. If the people who know the aircraft and software inside and out messed it up, how do you think someone who would have to start almost from scratch would do? I promise it wouldn't be perfect either.

That said, it was a big idea with lots of potential that got some things wrong, albeit pretty big things. It's not like Lockheed Martin hasn't delivered in the past. They're more than capable of getting it right, and now that they know where things went wrong they'll be able to fix it.

Granted, it shouldn't have been wrong in the first place, but...can't do anything about that now except fix the issues they know are there.

Two words. Cloud based.

[Katchii]

Two words. Cloud based.

And your point is....?

[sarahtasher]

And your point is....?

Well, considering how fiable and working CLOUD is for your smartphone pictures...

[GreenJesus]

Well, considering how fiable and working CLOUD is for your smartphone pictures...

Yeh itll probably fail after 50 billion dollars and then they will try BLOCKCHAIN based software.

[Katchii]

Well, considering how fiable and working CLOUD is for your smartphone pictures...

My cloud pictures are fine? I've honestly never had issues with my cloud based stuff on my phone. Which means, in concept AND in application the technology can work.

Still not really seeing your point.

[sarahtasher]

My cloud pictures are fine? I've honestly never had issues with my cloud based stuff on my phone. Which means, in concept AND in application the technology can work.

Still not really seeing your point.

In addition to security issues (then again, I suppose the NSA is not going to be interested in hacking those…) cloud devices are, in essence, less reliable than non-cloud ones. And everyone known how reliable the F-35 is, with the cannon that can't be shot because it crack or the stealth painting that will be (this is sarcastic, but I would take a bet on it) prove vulnerable to bird dejections….

[Easo]

I would say that USA should stop paying subsidies to defence companies to develop projects, but let them do it with their own cash (of which they have enough). Failed to make the order according to specs? Neverending delays? No purchases, fix it or no tax payer money for you Lockheed, Boing, whatever.
Skroe will probably disagree with me, though.

[sarahtasher]

I would say that USA should stop paying subsidies to defence companies to develop projects, but let them do it with their own cash (of which they have enough). Failed to make the order according to specs? Neverending delays? No purchases, fix it or no tax payer money for you Lockheed, Boing, whatever.
Skroe will probably disagree with me, though.

Not unlike the armed forces worldwide renowned for their efficiency of Fascist Italy (note : this is a comment on the consortium power, not fascism), Lockheed is one step away of blackmailing the US forces : it's our F-35 or nothing.

[StillMcfuu]

Why, give the contract for the follow up program to the same defence firm.

ALIS (the failure) is dead. Long live ODIN (by the same guys)

Will surely work this time. After all, it got a juvenile name and will be cloud based. Yeah

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ill-years-away

Did you read the article? The system was made by Lockheed Martin, they make the whole damn plane, who else would make the system?
It would be like asking MS to not make windows and give it to someone else, and then expecting a better product...

[Skroe]

Yeah maybe we should just buy f-16s until the end of time. No problem with that.

/s by the way.

Alis as a concept, which includes Odin now, is a crucial technological advance. But sure let’s go buy more of a plane that first flew in the 1970s.

Maybe we can cut spending on technological development and get some more of that saucy healthcare thing.

/spit on that notion by the way.

[sarahtasher]

Yeah maybe we should just buy f-16s until the end of time. No problem with that.

/s by the way.

Alis as a concept, which includes Odin now, is a crucial technological advance. But sure let’s go buy more of a plane that first flew in the 1970s.

Maybe we can cut spending on technological development and get some more of that saucy healthcare thing.

/spit on that notion by the way.

No, but maybe, bold concept, not reward incompetent with bigger contracts. At one point, courage would be excepted from the military: instead of saddling the nation for decades with a flying turd (and forcing it at gunpoint on allies), admit mistakes and get a new one before 2050.

[Skroe]

Not unlike the armed forces worldwide renowned for their efficiency of Fascist Italy (note : this is a comment on the consortium power, not fascism), Lockheed is one step away of blackmailing the US forces : it's our F-35 or nothing.

The f-35 won a competitive fly off. The Air Force is buying F-15EXs and the B-21. The F-22 successor program will begin in a year or two.

What the hell more do you want? Seriously. There are major contracting lessons to be gained fron the f-35... I’ve talked about them at length in this forum over the years. The original sin of the F-35 program was that the US asked Lockheed to make it win aircraft essentially a technological generation beyond the f-22, rather than do what they did with the f-16 and ask for a basically f-15 derived tech in a smaller package with some modest improvements.

The US could have done a “smaller f-22 with some modest improvements.” But it chose to make the f-35 a major technology program as well. Right or wrong it chose that. Lovkheed fucked it up but it was also asked to develop something that probably should not have been. The f-35 tech package probably better belonged in the f-22 successor program.

The good news is the f-35 has come a long way and is in most ways where it needs to be. Same with the f-22 which was once shittalked and now we lament we didn’t build nearly enough.

[sarahtasher]

The f-35 won a competitive fly off. The Air Force is buying F-15EXs and the B-21. The F-22 successor program will begin in a year or two.

What the hell more do you want? Seriously. There are major contracting lessons to be gained fron the f-35... I’ve talked about them at length in this forum over the years. The original sin of the F-35 program was that the US asked Lockheed to make it win aircraft essentially a technological generation beyond the f-22, rather than do what they did with the f-16 and ask for a basically f-15 derived tech in a smaller package with some modest improvements.

The US could have done a “smaller f-22 with some modest improvements.” But it chose to make the f-35 a major technology program as well. Right or wrong it chose that. Lovkheed fucked it up but it was also asked to develop something that probably should not have been. The f-35 tech package probably better belonged in the f-22 successor program.

The good news is the f-35 has come a long way and is in most ways where it needs to be. Same with the f-22 which was once shittalked and now we lament we didn’t build nearly enough.

The F-35 whose cannon can't be fire too often because it will damage the mount ? And yes, the issues are contracting. Lockheed Martin bottom line have taken hostage your entire armed forces, as well as the ones of the allies forced at gunpoint to purchase this flying turkey. That's the point in this thread : Lockheed Martin make a piece of crap as maintenance software and are rewarded with a NEW contract for the same, but more expensive.

[Skroe]

No, but maybe, bold concept, not reward incompetent with bigger contracts. At one point, courage would be excepted from the military: instead of saddling the nation for decades with a flying turd (and forcing it at gunpoint on allies), admit mistakes and get a new one before 2050.

The f-35 is anything but a flying turd. And it’s core technologies are being implemented in the more important b-21 raider stealth bomber which will share engines, avionics, sensors and possibly even skin maitnence technologies with the f-35.

The f-15 and f/a-18 programs both led to crucial technological developments in engines and sensors that saw many applications in military and civilian markets. The f-35 is much the same. ALIS like software-driven aircraft are a crucial technological advance in particular.

The lesson to be had is to fully develop before mass production and iterate in smaller build numbers more often (like the 1950) than to buy huge numbers of aircraft with huge projected service lives. But the f-35 has arrived and it’s entirely worth seeing through to its end.

- - - Updated - - -

The F-35 whose cannon can't be fire too often because it will damage the mount ? And yes, the issues are contracting. Lockheed Martin bottom line have taken hostage your entire armed forces, as well as the ones of the allies forced at gunpoint to purchase this flying turkey. That's the point in this thread : Lockheed Martin make a piece of crap as maintenance software and are rewarded with a NEW contract for the same, but more expensive.

The f-35 shouldn’t even have a canon.

And no Lockheed Martin hasn’t taken the Air Force hostage. Hell the pentagon literally debated buying more f-22s a few years back and instead elected on more advanced f-15s from Boeing as a stop gap.


We need to produce the f-35 faster, retire the f-16 faster and consider growing the f-35 into a stop-gap dual engine stealth fighter that carries more munitions. Or just buy more B-21s. Hundreds more.

[Katchii]

In addition to security issues (then again, I suppose the NSA is not going to be interested in hacking those…) cloud devices are, in essence, less reliable than non-cloud ones. And everyone known how reliable the F-35 is, with the cannon that can't be shot because it crack or the stealth painting that will be (this is sarcastic, but I would take a bet on it) prove vulnerable to bird dejections….

Super complicated, super expensive pieces of equipment and software have issues that need to be iterated upon and fixed. What's news or "bad" about that? That's how literally everything works. Does a piece of equipment or software exist that was released with absolutely zero issues?

The argument of whether something should have issues is a different discussion, we live in the world as it is now, not how we wish it was. I agree that it shouldn't have those issues, but it does, and there's no one better equipped (or qualified, but that's debatable) than Lockheed Martin to fix the issues with a piece of Lockheed Martin equipment/technology with Lockheed Martin developed software.

I agree though that we shouldn't be chained to these defense contractors, but...we are for now, so what we should and shouldn't be doing right now about THIS issue is a pointless discussion because we're stuck with them.

Your point about cloud based software is, IMO, largely irrelevant because the technology CAN work and that's all that matters in application is whether or not it works. And in my experience it's been reliable (it's worked for me every time I've needed it, obviously YMMV) so it CAN be reliable too...provided the people developing stuff with it know wtf they're doing.

[unbound]

Why, give the contract for the follow up program to the same defence firm.

ALIS (the failure) is dead. Long live ODIN (by the same guys)

Will surely work this time. After all, it got a juvenile name and will be cloud based. Yeah

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ill-years-away

Relationships. Happens all the time, both in government and in commercial spaces. That will always be an important part of such contracts.

As for this specific item, ODIN is supposed to work with the F35s, so who do you think is in a better position to develop it? You think Lockheed Martin is going to cooperate with some other contractor in understanding the F35 systems so that a cloud system can interact correctly with them? That isn't happening, and if someone was to try to push that sharing of information, the Pentagon would likely squash such thoughts in the name of security (the real reason being...see my first paragraph).