Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[Grapemask]

It is from 2020... From 60 Minutes yesterday, they asked Sanders about his positive views of Castro's Cuba and he reaffirmed those views and defended them with an argument of "Are the good things Castro did bad just because he was bad?"...

That's a valid argument. Only people arguing in bad faith would say otherwise. Which in politics is going to be everyone that stands on the other side, because something about political discussion on the internet makes people believe "pretending to be stupid" is a winning argument.

Now, it's probably not helpful for Sanders to say these things, given that people are always looking for any reason to pretend to be stupid, and conservative media in particular revolves around recontextualizing things. If Bernie Sanders expects to defeat a liar, he needs to stop making it easy for him to lie.

But I get a kick out of the fact that several of the people leaping to attack Sanders here are the same ones who leap to defend Trump when he says these things without acknowledging that they're bad. SelfaWarewolves would be giddy.

[Molis]

Genuine question, since you're more and more likely to get Bernie as the nominee; what do people actually expect him to achieve within 4/8 years?

I don't see him getting M4A or anything of that nature done, personally. What else is he running on that may be realistic?

Break the record for EO unfucking what Trump did
Use Military funding for Health Care or climate change
Golf?

[Endus]

Pretty much the sad arc of modern socialism. After the "revolution" they really have no idea how to govern or build a lasting coalition. They devolve into some form of paranoid revanchism. Working on their enemies list, which typically include a lot of former allies.

It's always "After Hitler, Our Turn!"
"Trotsky is now the enemy of the people!"
"After Trump, Our Turn!"


How about a "10-year-plan" to work with the middle class, and ease their fears of constant upheaval?

You can't possibly be serious with this bullshit.

I've criticized Sanders' character myself pretty vehemently in prior threads, and I stand by those points, but his policy proposals are exactly the "10-year plan" you're suggesting he hasn't provided, and it's almost entirely aimed at improving matters for the working and middle classes, and providing more security and support for them.

https://berniesanders.com/issues/

Safe, protected immigration? Benefits everyone, reduces anxiety about family immigration.
Medicare for all? Vastly expands support and protection for the working and middle class.
Green new deal? Puts corporations to task for damaging the environment, pushes economic growth in new green industry that will employ more people, etc.
College for all, benefits the working and middle classes and eases financial woes.
Workplace democracy, entirely about improving working conditions and representation for working-class and middle-class workers.
Expand social security, which protects those who needs it.
Housing for all, which will further shore up protections for those in need.
Free child care and Pre-K for all, again, helps those who can't currently afford it or who have it put strain on their finances.

And so on. Every single fuckingentry is about easing the fears of constant upheaval of the working- and middle-classes. Where the hell are you pulling your information from that you're not aware of this? It's not like it's hidden.

[Inuyaki]

Pretty much this even close to home the white house was built by slaves using that logic we need to burn it to the ground.

You don't even have to use the WH for that argument.

The constitution was written by slave owners and traitors. I guess that makes it bad now?

[Telogrus]

https://twitter.com/HotlineJosh/stat...33462157099013

Praising dictators is not a good look

Is nuance dead to you?

[Milchshake]

You can't possibly be serious with this bullshit.

I've criticized Sanders' character myself pretty vehemently in prior threads, and I stand by those points, but his policy proposals are exactly the "10-year plan" you're suggesting he hasn't provided, and it's almost entirely aimed at improving matters for the working and middle classes, and providing more security and support for them.

https://berniesanders.com/issues/

Safe, protected immigration? Benefits everyone, reduces anxiety about family immigration.
Medicare for all? Vastly expands support and protection for the working and middle class.
Green new deal? Puts corporations to task for damaging the environment, pushes economic growth in new green industry that will employ more people, etc.
College for all, benefits the working and middle classes and eases financial woes.
Workplace democracy, entirely about improving working conditions and representation for working-class and middle-class workers.
Expand social security, which protects those who needs it.
Housing for all, which will further shore up protections for those in need.
Free child care and Pre-K for all, again, helps those who can't currently afford it or who have it put strain on their finances.

And so on. Every single fuckingentry is about easing the fears of constant upheaval of the working- and middle-classes. Where the hell are you pulling your information from that you're not aware of this? It's not like it's hidden.

Neat. You found Bernie's mood board. It's really generous to call it a plan.

Grading Bernie on a curve seems to be a thing now.

Next you'll tell us that Bernie has "This one neat trick for...." turning his mood board into policy, let alone law.

I bet It involves a VP with magic powers

[Endus]

That's a valid argument. Only people arguing in bad faith would say otherwise. Which in politics is going to be everyone that stands on the other side, because something about political discussion on the internet makes people believe "pretending to be stupid" is a winning argument.

Now, it's probably not helpful for Sanders to say these things, given that people are always looking for any reason to pretend to be stupid, and conservative media in particular revolves around recontextualizing things. If Bernie Sanders expects to defeat a liar, he needs to stop making it easy for him to lie.

I want to pull the bold out for a moment.

It's helpful for Sanders to say these things. It demonstrates an understanding of nuance, non-binary thinking. It demonstrates he can analyze a complex situation for contextual understanding.

What's "not helpful" is Americans who choose to be pig-ignorant shitheads who knee-jerk about the "commie" because their pastor/congressman/Alex Jones said he's the target of the 5-minute Hate of the day. These are stupid, willfully ignorant, small-minded people, who don't even want to better their understanding, because they're so chickenshit scared and insecure that their views won't hold up. They're pathetic. We need to stop relying on these people and letting them call the shots, and start reminding ourselves that they're the worst people in the country.

They "aren't helpful". And it doesn't matter what Sanders said. He could say "I like kittens, they're cute and they purr" and they'll insist they're dog people and hate cats and Sanders must burn for liking them. They're completely irrational and will make shit up when reality doesn't agree with their assumptions. Stop paying attention to them, other than to condemn their ignorance and gullibility.

And to be clear; these are "some Americans". By no means "all Americans". Feel free to presume I'm not talking about you, if your hackles start to rise because you feel I'm making a personal attack. Also take note that I didn't once mention party, here.

They're ignorant cowards and they don't know any better, and actively refuse getting any better. Stop letting them decide policy. We wouldn't end NASA because they're ranting about the moon landings being faked, would we? It's the same class of idiot in both cases.

[Blur4stuff]

Everything Sanders wants to do either already exists in the US (and will be expanded) or is proven to work in other countries that are better places to live for the middle class and poor. There's nothing extreme or untested about any of it.

This is why attacks don't work for anyone that's at least marginally aware of the world around them. Screaming socialism and communism is completely pointless against anyone that doesn't live in a bubble.

Now back to our regularly scheduled attacks based on something Sanders wrote or said forty years ago.

[Endus]

Neat. You found Bernie's mood board. It's really generous to call it a plan.

Grading Bernie on a curve seems to be a thing now.

Next you'll tell us that Bernie has "This one neat trick for...." turning his mood board into policy, let alone law.

I bet It involves a VP with magic powers

So wait, you expect Bernie to have a concrete, firmly defined plan for achieving their goals before he's the nominee?

That's not a standard any candidate has ever been held to. There's too much planning that needs to be done with the aid of the party framework for that to be possible.

[Captain N]

So wait, you expect Bernie to have a concrete, firmly defined plan for achieving their goals before he's the nominee?

That's not a standard any candidate has ever been held to. There's too much planning that needs to be done with the aid of the party framework for that to be possible.

And when he does have a defined plan, like Hillary did in 2016, they'll still claim that there was no policy in place.

[cordrann]

It is almost hilarious really, Bloomberg gets in the race because he thinks he can stop the "liberal" wing, and now he is the very reason they will win the nomination. I think the best thing the "establishment" democrats could do at this point is push some of the weaker candidates to drop out of the race and endorse one specific candidate. They would win the nomination easily if the support wasn't so divided.

[Milchshake]

And when he does have a defined plan, like Hillary did in 2016, they'll still claim that there was no policy in place.

But Bernie has 4 long years to work up his plans. Hillary got her's ready within a primary cycle. Warren got her's ready before the first caucus.

Again, why is Bernie graded on a curve?

[Flarelaine]

And, seriously, you think Liz Warren is going to ignore a VP invite over that little spat? :P

Warren is too dynamic to settle for VP. She can do so much more with a cabinet seat. Also putting two elderly white progressives on the ticket is just overkill.

[Theodarzna]

Fixed that for you.

How about, no?

The whole schtick about "Building a coalition" is also nonsense. The only one building any kind of coalition is Sanders. Unless "build a coalition" is New Speak for "Work with the Security State Blob and Finance Capital"

[Flarelaine]

Obama described Modi as someone he liked and a good friend. No one blinked. No one called him a Hindu Nationalist.

Modi hadn't quite gone off the deep end while Obama was in office.

[Theodarzna]

But Bernie has 4 long years to work up his plans. Hillary got her's ready within a primary cycle. Warren got her's ready before the first caucus.

Again, why is Bernie graded on a curve?

The "Having a plan for that" ultimately is an appeal to technocracy and paternalism and the hope that elites will take care of the masses; which there is zero reason to believe in that.

Bernie's plans are essentially to fundamentally shift who has power in society. His goal is to empower the working class to take care of itself and to exercise power. With Warren they are still on their knees begging, with Bernie they have dignity and power.

Right now the establishment Democrats seem to be a fusion of John Birch Society paranoia, neocon Thatcherism, Crenshaw's intersectionality, crazy ex feminism, and liberal decorum anti-politics. Sprinkled with Harry Potter metaphors. This is so toxic to anyone outside of a narrow class of people living well in like three port cities.

[Draco-Onis]

But Bernie has 4 long years to work up his plans. Hillary got her's ready within a primary cycle. Warren got her's ready before the first caucus.

Again, why is Bernie graded on a curve?

And Trump's plans were one liners if Warren has shown anything is showing your homework is a bad thing when it comes to running for president. It's also not true there are no plans worked up since Bernie does have several bills written up already.

[d00mGuArD]

Couldn't you say that from anyone in power? even the worse monsters in history did some things that were good that doesn't mean you are like Trump who did verbal fellatio on Putin in Helsinki.

surely you are joking. you compare actual crimes and killings from "monsters in history" with trump... and your conclusion is that trump is worst that those monsters because of verbal nonsense? You live outside reality or it was sarcasm? Do you really believe that Trump is worse than mass murderer castro?

[Draco-Onis]

Warren is too dynamic to settle for VP. She can do so much more with a cabinet seat. Also putting two elderly white progressives on the ticket is just overkill.

I think he needs a younger moderatish type to balance the ticket the goal with the VP should be to get the party behind him and win over voters. One of the biggest mistakes Hillary made was having Tim Kaine which gave her nothing.

- - - Updated - - -

surely you are joking. you compare actual crimes and killings from "monsters in history" with trump... and your conclusion is that trump is worst that those monsters because of verbal nonsense? You live outside reality or it was sarcasm?

I don't get why you are getting your panties in a twad if those monsters existed today Trump would say that they are a great leader and good for their people like he did with Kim Jong un. Do you think what Bernie said equates to that?

[cubby]

Bernie sure fucked up his interview with CNN. Can't answer substantial answers on policy costs and I guess said Castro was great.

What. The. Holy. Fuck.

The interview transcripts are dogshit too. He needs to up his fucking game and stop citing communist dictators as good people.