Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[Sunseeker]

Conservatives: Ban muslims. Ban gay marriage. Ban illegal immigrants. Tell the poor to quit being a burden. Tell women to shut up about their rights and needs. Stop the war on christians. Stop telling men to not be shits......

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oh yeah stop playing identity politics!!!!!

Liberals: Um....

Also, I mean, where is the compromise here? Ban some muslims? Oppress some gays?

Republicans have a lot of absolutist policies about other people. How they should think. How they should feel. What rights they should have have. Who they can marry. What bathroom they can use. What gender they are. What god they should worship. What country they should live in.

Where's the "middle ground"? Where'd the "compromise" here? Where's the "centrist" position?

[derpkitteh]

Biden caught out after telling a bizarre lie.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51648166

Not sure what he was trying to achieve with that lie, outside of hoping to somehow counter Sanders' civil rights arrest record.

i think his family needs to get his brain health checked and do everything they can to stave off senility. he probably thinks he actually did this.

it reminds me of my grandma. just about everything we own, she invents a story and fully believes she's the one that bought it. it's a kinda scary thing to see, when you know the kinds of things that can cause it.

[Yoshingo]

I haven't talked about Sanders at all, other than to say I don't give a shit who the nominee is, so not sure who you're aiming at with that. Yeah, we'll probably lose Alabama, but there's still North Carolina and Arizona, too, and we'd need to net 4. Again, well within the realm of possibility and worth fighting for.

I never said it wasn't worth fighting for. However its extremely unlikely and I think anybody who campaigns by saying, "The other person is bad because they can't win the Senate" (Which was repeated upwards of 10 times against Sanders in the last debate and was something Warren had levied at her earlier on when she was a frontrunner) is horrendously disingenuous, verging on a lie.

Stop pretending that this conversation isn't about Sanders too, btw. It is. He's the one the conversation was spawned about.

It'd be amazing if Amy McGrath could beat Mitch McConnell but I find it really unlikely, especially when she couldn't win a less conservative congressional district in 2018 compared to the entire state. Its also a good example of why pandering to conservatives by offering Republican-lite policies is a bad strategy that older Democratic consultants keep trying to tell candidates still works.

A more specific example of what I mean regarding McGrath is that she originally said that she would have voted to appoint Kavanaugh and then a day later flipped to saying she wouldn't have, presumably after she realized that nationally Democrats do not support that stance but she would have had to say that for her district to elect her. It comes across as just saying whatever anyone wants to hear, which is something people are completely turned off by after Trump's been doing it for 4 years.

[Edge-]

You understand that this is a good thing, right? Candidates and their campaigns admitting mistakes is GOOD. Let's not take them out back and shoot them for correcting mistakes.

It's good that he admitted it, yes.

It's bad that this is a pattern where Biden seems unable to recall events as they happened, often mixing up details of multiple stories, or straight up makes shit up.

So overall, it's a huge "not good" when your candidate for president can't remember the stories that he practices to tell on the campaign trail.

[cubby]

It's good that he admitted it, yes.

It's bad that this is a pattern where Biden seems unable to recall events as they happened, often mixing up details of multiple stories, or straight up makes shit up.

So overall, it's a huge "not good" when your candidate for president can't remember the stories that he practices to tell on the campaign trail.

What's really bad is when a handful of incidents is blow WAY OUT OF PROPORTION compared to the number of things said overall. And it's sure a good thing that other candidates making gaffes like this are getting the same treatment that the GOP is pushing.

Claiming these are mental issues instead of just normal errors is doing the work of the GOP. Period.

[Themius]

i'm talking about how the process works. currently there is a very specific set of circumstances that must be met for one party to be able to rule over the other, and people are advocating for changing things so one party to have complete power.
then they wont have to compromise to discriminate.

Advocating for majority rule as the majority is fine.

[Edge-]

What's really bad is when a handful of incidents is blow WAY OUT OF PROPORTION compared to the number of things said overall. And it's sure a good thing that other candidates making gaffes like this are getting the same treatment that the GOP is pushing.

Under normal political times, even a quarter of these flubs would have been a gut-punch to his campaign. And yeah, given how much talking he does this represents a minority of his comments but he doesn't exist in isolation or in a bubble.

He's the only candidate in the Democratic field with this problem. I don't see the issue in pointing it out, we shouldn't gloss over the negatives for our candidates.

Claiming these are mental issues instead of just normal errors is doing the work of the GOP. Period.

Or, it's us providing our opinion. Because he sure doesn't seem like he's anywhere near as sharp as he once was. Remember the, "My time is up." comment in the first debate? That's was amateur hour nonsense, not the behavior of someone with decades in political experience as a Senator and VP.

[Levelfive]

I never said it wasn't worth fighting for. However its extremely unlikely and I think anybody who campaigns by saying, "The other person is bad because they can't win the Senate" (Which was repeated upwards of 10 times against Sanders in the last debate and was something Warren had levied at her earlier on when she was a frontrunner) is horrendously disingenuous, verging on a lie.

Stop pretending that this conversation isn't about Sanders too, btw. It is. He's the one the conversation was spawned about.

Stop pretending? Jesus fuck off. My point from start to finish was that winning the Senate is not "insanely" unlikely and I provided evidence for that. Really don't care what or who spawned it.

[Thepersona]

What's really bad is when a handful of incidents is blow WAY OUT OF PROPORTION compared to the number of things said overall. And it's sure a good thing that other candidates making gaffes like this are getting the same treatment that the GOP is pushing.

Claiming these are mental issues instead of just normal errors is doing the work of the GOP. Period.

I was not claiming that the dude should pack his things and go to a retirement home. Just that, as with everyone else, age is a bitch.
Or as my (deceased) grandma said: "death penalty for people not reaching old age" (sounds better in spanish

[Yoshingo]

Or, it's us providing our opinion. Because he sure doesn't seem like he's anywhere near as sharp as he once was. Remember the, "My time is up." comment in the first debate? That's was amateur hour nonsense, not the behavior of someone with decades in political experience as a Senator and VP.

Yeah there's definitely nuance in the discussion of talking about faults of candidates. I think bringing up flubs and/or policy differences are fine. Its why, even though I support M4A and Sanders/Warren's take on it, I don't find moderate's challenging that a bad thing. Because it makes Sanders and Warren refine their defense of it.

However there is a point where you then ARE using GOP tactics against fellow candidates, and you're just inevitably helping Trump. All this shit about Castro is just fucking stupid and teeing up Republicans with attack ads if/when Sanders becomes the nominee. Having Pete Buttigieg, specifically, since he seems to do this the most, use disingenuous GOP-like lies against other candidates is not helpful.

He seems to be getting more and more desperate now that we're no longer doing just 99% white states for the primary and he's polling terribly. Rather than just try to raise himself up, he's attacking the frontrunner with things that are basically verging on lies.

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Stop pretending? Jesus fuck off. My point from start to finish was that winning the Senate is not "insanely" unlikely and I provided evidence for that. Really don't care what or who spawned it.

...dude the topic was completely related to the discussion of Sanders but okay. No need to get so mad my dude. Its completely related to the topic. And the only reason I even brought him back up in my response to you is because you pretended that it wasn't relevant.

Thanks for ignoring everything else I wrote though.

[Omega10]

What a lying dog faced pony soldier.

Not the first time he's made up stories or mixed up the details of multiple stories to create a fiction.

On the one hand, Biden's story was a complete lie and also a really stupid story to make up.

On the other hand Biden has almost as much chance to be the democratic nominee as Sanders (538 shows that Sanders' chance of winning an outright majority is down to 44%).

Any chance that someone might say something good about him? Skroe called him senile, Starlord says he won't do anything to bankrupt the country - does that count as a complement? - and now the new narrative is that he says a lot of things that are false. Oops the actual phrase was "lying dog faced pony soldier"

[Levelfive]

...dude the topic was completely related to the discussion of Sanders but okay. No need to get so mad my dude. Its completely related to the topic. And the only reason I even brought him back up in my response to you is because you pretended that it wasn't relevant.

Thanks for ignoring everything else I wrote though.

We were having a conversation about this more than 10 pages ago that had nothing to do with Sanders.

[Yoshingo]

Any chance that someone might say something good about him?

I admire a lot about Biden. I think that when he does things like have heart-to-heart conversations about his stutters, he's in his top form. Seeing him talk with kids who have stutters and reassure them that its not a disability is really heartwarming and puts a smile on my face. That's the part of Biden that I really like and admire.

[starlord]

Advocating for majority rule as the majority is fine.

then understand that it cuts both ways. the GOP won't have as many checks on their ability to oppress people.

[Yoshingo]

We were having a conversation about this more than 10 pages ago that had nothing to do with Sanders.

And the person who I originally responded to, and which you then responded to me, directly brought up Sanders in the context of not being able to get his agenda done because of the Senate.

I dont want to drive the thread off topic with this nonsense anymore though, so I'm bowing out of this spat.

[Thepersona]

I admire a lot about Biden. I think that when he does things like have heart-to-heart conversations about his stutters, he's in his top form. Seeing him talk with kids who have stutters and reassure them that its not a disability is really heartwarming and puts a smile on my face. That's the part of Biden that I really like and admire.

And the dude should be more open with his love for trains. It's something most americans love, and he could gain popularity on that.
This is a compliment. Amtrak Joe is fucking nice

[starlord]

On the one hand, Biden's story was a complete lie and also a really stupid story to make up.

On the other hand Biden has almost as much chance to be the democratic nominee as Sanders (538 shows that Sanders' chance of winning an outright majority is down to 44%).

Any chance that someone might say something good about him? Skroe called him senile, Starlord says he won't do anything to bankrupt the country - does that count as a complement? - and now the new narrative is that he says a lot of things that are false. Oops the actual phrase was "lying dog faced pony soldier"

when did i say that? i have a pretty neutral position on biden.
i was referring to how comparing bernie to biden involves looking at how far reaching their agendas are. biden isn't trying to do anything groundbreaking like bernie.

[cubby]

Under normal political times, even a quarter of these flubs would have been a gut-punch to his campaign. And yeah, given how much talking he does this represents a minority of his comments but he doesn't exist in isolation or in a bubble.

He's the only candidate in the Democratic field with this problem. I don't see the issue in pointing it out, we shouldn't gloss over the negatives for our candidates.

But he's not the only one. Every candidate is making flubs. Joe's are just being mislabeled, by the GOP, and parroted by the Dems.

Or, it's us providing our opinion. Because he sure doesn't seem like he's anywhere near as sharp as he once was. Remember the, "My time is up." comment in the first debate? That's was amateur hour nonsense, not the behavior of someone with decades in political experience as a Senator and VP.

Sure, your opinion. Based not on facts, parroting lies, and hurting the Democrats overall. That's amateur hour nonsense.

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I was not claiming that the dude should pack his things and go to a retirement home. Just that, as with everyone else, age is a bitch.
Or as my (deceased) grandma said: "death penalty for people not reaching old age" (sounds better in spanish

Lol, fair enough. It can be, but I think mislabeling his reasonable gaffes with GOP-approved names doesn't do the Democrats any good. And that's exactly what people are doing.

[Yoshingo]

But he's not the only one. Every candidate is making flubs. Joe's are just being mislabeled, by the GOP, and parroted by the Dems.

But somebody lying isn't making a flub. Its lying. And its a valid thing to point out. Especially when its being used to compare yourself to another candidate who actually does have a track record of being a fighter for minority rights.

I'm not saying Biden does not have a track record at all either, by the way, but making up stories is just bad form.

If we're going to (rightly) call out Trump for lying we can't just let candidates we like get away with it too. Not all lies are equal but lying about really easily found information is just a dumb strategy.

[Edge-]

But he's not the only one. Every candidate is making flubs. Joe's are just being mislabeled, by the GOP, and parroted by the Dems.

What other candidate has repeatedly confused or made up stories other than Biden? They've had occasional missteps, but most haven't had anywhere near the issues Biden has had. The only one I can think of off the top of my head was Warren and her story about being fired for being pregnant...and that was largely promoted by conservative sites trying to "GOTCHA" her because they didn't list "fired for being preggers" in their records when she was let go. Because you know, that's totes something an organization would do and is totes not something that pregnant women have repeatedly faced.

And that alone is a far cry from making up a story about being arrested for trying to meet Nelson Mandela. Or confusing 3 different stories about a trip to the Middle East and rolling them all into one mish-mash. Or undisciplined comments like "lying dog faced pony soldier" or "My time is up."